Apple’s DMA malicious compliance explained.

[mode11]

It literally is though. Competition already exists 👍

Ah, the market. Nothing can ever go wrong when competition is involved.

There's only two mobile phone platforms. What do you suggest the mechanism should be in situations where it's in neither company's interests to play fair? Just bend over and take it, forever?

We have all sorts of laws to prevent companies from simply maximising profit, which is what they are otherwise legally compelled to by their shareholders. There's plenty of competition in the social media space; does that automatically make those companies act in the interests of society, or might regulation be relevant there?

 

[icanhazmac]

but can you give an example of how my iPhone experience will be made worse when third party app stores become an option in March?

Sure:

• The advent of alt-stores will fragment the App Store experience we enjoy today as a 1 stop shop. Apps will leave the Apple store and join alt-stores or be available only from the devs web site. Just like PC/Mac.
• The likes of Meta, Epic, Steam, Amazon, Microsoft and others will open their own stores and I predict, remove their apps from the Apple AND Google stores. They will also, especially Epic and Steam, pay other devs for exclusive distribution rights. The big names have not done this so far because they would only have been able to do it for Android. If Apple is forced into this madness then the big names will open their own mobile stores that are able to service the vast majority of users, both Apple and Android.
• This forces users to create store "accounts" with these other entities, again fragmenting the experience. I may in fact be forced to open a Meta store account for an app I already own and believe me, I do not want a Meta account or anything to do with Meta.
• This forces users to use normal web searches to find apps instead of them all being in a single location.
• This forces users to visit multiple stores or web sites to research and compare apps instead of them all being in a single location.
• There will be no common review or rating process. Bad reviews are easily removed if you own the site/store.
• Apps will no longer update from a single place, fragmenting the experience.
• Apps removed from the Apple App store will no longer have privacy scorecards.
• Payments will be scattered to the winds of cheap processors, further placing our personal information in jeopardy and opening up users to bad actors.
• Customer service, refunds and subscription cancellations will be hindered when devs bring those functions "in house".

I will add to this as they come to mind.

My argument all along has been Apple provides a unique and different approach to an app store that should be viewed as an alternative to Android and should be protected as such not force regulated into being the same vanilla garbage as Android or Mac/PC.

 

[mode11]

If they truly believed they had the best offer on the table they wouldn't be making it so difficult for alternate storefronts to set up.

Yeah, it's almost as if they would rather not have to make the best offer, and would rather just avoid competition in the first place.

I mean, if I were running Apple I would do exactly the same. It would be difficult for Tim Cook to justify to the Board of Directors why he hadn't taken such obvious steps to safeguard this revenue stream. Shareholders could reasonably claim he'd been negligent with their money.

 

[Jim Lahey]

BRB. Just off to demand that Volkswagen build rebranded BMWs because I bought BMW for decades despite hating them 👍

 

[mode11]

Sure:

• The advent of alt-stores will fragment the App Store experience we enjoy today as a 1 stop shop. Apps will leave and join alt-stores or be available only from the devs web site.
• The likes of Meta, Epic, Steam, Amazon, Microsoft and others will open their own stores and I predict, remove their apps from the Apple AND Google stores. They will also, especially Epic and Steam, pay other devs for exclusive distribution rights. The big names have not done this so far because they would only have been able to do it for Android. If Apple is forced into this madness then the big names will open their own mobile stores that are able to service the vast majority of users, both Apple and Android.
• This forces users to create store "accounts" with these other entities, again fragmenting the experience.
• This forces users to use normal web searches to find apps instead of them all being in a single location.
• This forces users to visit multiple stores or web sites to research and compare apps instead of them all being in a single location.
• Apps will no longer update from a single place, fragmenting the experience.
• Apps removed from the Apple App store will no longer have privacy scorecards.
• Payments will be scattered to the winds of cheap processors, further placing our personal information in jeopardy and opening up users to bad actors.
• Customer service, refunds and subscription cancellations will be hindered when devs bring those functions "in house".

I will add to this as they come to mind.

My argument all along has been Apple provides a unique and different approach to an app store that should be viewed as an alternative to Android and should be protected as such not force regulated into being the same vanilla garbage as Android or Mac/PC.

You must find buying software for your Mac a terrifying experience.

The big games companies like Epic and Valve will likely have their own storefronts, as will Amazon for Kindle purchases (assuming the rules actually change the economics for them favourably). But everyone else will have their apps on the App Store / Play Store - who would ignore the platform's largest, first party marketplace when selling their app?

 

[mode11]

BRB. Just off to demand that Volkswagen build rebranded BMWs because I bought BMW for decades despite hating them 👍

Or come back when you have a relevant analogy👍

 

[Jim Lahey]

Or come back when you have a relevant analogy👍

Exactly. It makes about as much sense as demanding a company makes exactly what you want because buying something else is too inconvenient 👍

 

[Ctrlos]

BRB. Just off to demand that Volkswagen build rebranded BMWs because I bought BMW for decades despite hating them 👍

Volkswagon probably have an indicator department thats not just a sticker printer.

 

[0339327]

That is not true in Europe, quite the opposite. The first sale doctrine applies to software. Consumers who buy software become the owners of their copy - not just the medium (if any), but the software itself. And "sale" is interpreted very generously in favor of the buyer. The Court of Justice of the EU has been explicit in that there shall not be any weaseling around this by sellers declaring the transfer to be just a license or similar. If money exchanges hands without any other terms discussed beforehand, it is a sale, no matter how it is called. Basically, companies would have to clearly state in advance that they are handing over the software as a time-limited rental agreement. Single payment and no set end date means sale/transfer of ownership. Updates later on, "click-agree-to-continue" upon boot, that stuff does not matter, the sale is done.

And this is not new or controversial. The past twenty years or so, software giants like Microsoft, Oracle and Adobe have lost in European courts time and time again over this. They had sold their software, their license terms were void. European iPhone buyers own their iOS.


EULAs are not law, they are just things companies would like to be true. Often they are just legally meaningless. Software buyers own their purchases, and there is only so much the vendors are allowed to restrict the usage of what is no longer their property. E.g., Hackintoshes are likely legal in the EU, as vendors can only restrict usage to certain hardware when it comes to specific rental agreements, not purchases.

So what keeps customers from duplication and black market resale? If they own the software, they can do with it what they like.

Or how can companies then charge for annual subscriptions? Seems odd the way this is setup.

 

[Ctrlos]

Sure:

• The likes of Meta, Epic, Steam, Amazon, Microsoft and others will open their own stores and I predict, remove their apps from the Apple AND Google stores.

If this were true they would have done it already on Android given that the T-Mobile G1 was perfectly capable of hosting an alternate app portal of some sort in 2008. Android enjoy a much larger global market share than Apple so why not?

Sideloading on Android is actually much safer than the iPhone a sit currently stands. I can download an app from somewhere like APKPure and trust that its not some malware ridden con. I can choose which apps have sideloading permissions so Chrome cannot just install something in the background. Sideloading an .ipa file (and we're talking emulators at this point) is fraught with risks because Apple haven't taken control of the situation.

 

[icanhazmac]

You must find buying software for your Mac a terrifying experience.

Terrifying? Veiled insults? I had hoped for more.

It has nothing to do with being "terrified", I certainly am not. It has to do with convenience and having a different, and arguably much friendlier experience. Just because we obtain software for our PCs and Macs in a fragmented fashion doesn't mean it is a good way or that it should be the only way. What is wrong with a different approach?

You asked for examples of how alt-stores would impact the iOS user experience and I provided them in an effort to engage you in civil discourse, my mistake.

 

[icanhazmac]

If this were true they would have done it already on Android

Not necessarily true, I have addressed this numerous times across these threads but here it is again...

Why would any dev waste the resources to create a mobile store for only a portion of the market? The smarter plan would be to wait and see if alt-stores are forced on Apple. Then one can open a mobile store that covers >98% of the market.

 

[mode11]

Terrifying? Veiled insults? I had hoped for more.

It has nothing to do with being "terrified", I certainly am not. It has to do with convenience and having a different, and arguably much friendlier experience. Just because the fragmented way we obtain software for our PCs and Macs doesn't mean that should be the only way. What is wrong with a different approach?

You asked for examples of how alt-stores would impact user experience and I provided them in an effort to engage you in civil discourse, my mistake.

Your post was a bit “Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”.

The fact of the matter is that Android already has multiple app stores available, and the scenario you describe didn't play out like that. Practically everything is in the Play Store - certainly all the banking apps etc.

In my opinion, the only apps that would refuse to be in Apple's App Store are those that are themselves storefronts (like Epic's) - and that have the name recognition to get away it. People will endure the friction of signing up to another store for something they really want, like Fortnite, but aren't going to bother for the sake of some random app that has lots of competition.

 

[Jim Lahey]

This remains a huge oversimplification.

There is very little app parity between iOS and Android. All your written notes are in Ulysses? Your favourite game is Tiny Wings? These apps do not exist on Android. Whilst Google offer all their core apps for iOS users, Apple do not do the same thing. I can migrate over my photos from iCloud in the background but what about my decades of iTunes purchases? PDFs in Books? Thousands of Apple Notes? Extracting iCloud data is not so easy.

Some good points well made. Digital lock-in is a pain. This is the cross we all bear when we choose to sign up for our free Life Invader accounts.

The only solution, if we really want one and aren’t just expecting government to run our lives, is to begin a slow disconnect from the services that tie us in. Then, if the time comes to switch to a different ecosystem, it’s relatively painless.

Forcing one company to behave like the other one is folly and hypocrisy in equal measure.

 

[mode11]

Why would any dev waste the resources to create a mobile store for only a portion of the market?

Well, it's 73% of the market according to another poster here. It's a bit of a stretch to claim it's not worth it unless one can address 100% of the market.

I think a more likely reason is that developers understand that consumers are lazy, and will avoid signing up to anything they don't have to. Adding unnecessary friction to a purchase is the last thing developers want to do in a competitive marketplace.

 

[mode11]

Forcing one company to behave like the other one is folly and hypocrisy in equal measure.

This is mischaracterising the situation. The point isn't to force Apple to behave like Google (God forbid). The point is to reduce the extent to which any company can rent seek. Meta and ByteDance are also in the crosshairs.

The only reason Google aren't falling foul of this legislation is because they already allow non-Google app stores. And that's just because they happen to have a different business model, where it's in their interests to do so. Not because they're such exemplars of virtue.

 

[icanhazmac]

Your post was a bit “Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”.

How exactly? Please tell me which of the points I brought up were hyperbolic?

As best I can tell you are acknowledging that the store will fragment, so my first 3 points are valid. The next 4 are quality of life type things but all valid, reviews, updates, comparing, etc. As far as payment processors go how can limiting your exposure to a single processor, through Apple be bad? To the best of my knowledge Apple has never been hacked (knock on wood) while many, many major corporations have been, at this point we should all have credit monitoring for life. Lastly we have refunds and canceling, have you not experienced or at least read about users difficulties in canceling subscriptions?

No, I'm not inclined to let you off the hook for the insult or lack of civility. None of my examples were hyperbolic, they were a rather straight forward description of how I feel the iOS experience will suffer under alt-stores.

YMMV but I won't insult you over your opinions.

 

[icanhazmac]

Well, it's 73% of the market according to another poster here. It's a bit of a stretch to claim it's not worth it unless one can address 100% of the market.

I think a more likely reason is that developers understand that consumers are lazy, and will avoid signing up to anything they don't have to. Adding unnecessary friction to a purchase is the last thing developers want to do in a competitive marketplace.

Worldwide that could be an accurate number for OS market share but obviously it varies across the globe. The other factor is "follow the money", where is the largest amount of money spent, in app stores, by country or OS? You can open an Android only store but will what is your ROI on that? If you can open a mobile store that covers both iOS and Android your income potential increases dramatically, I don't have the numbers in front of me but I remember reading that iOS store purchases far outweigh those from the Android side, could be wrong there but I don't think I am.

 

[mode11]

How exactly? Please tell me which of the points I brought up were hyperbolic?

As best I can tell you are acknowledging that the store will fragment, so my first 3 points are valid. The next 4 are quality of life type things but all valid, reviews, updates, comparing, etc. As far as payment processors go how can limiting your exposure to a single processor, through Apple be bad? To the best of my knowledge Apple has never been hacked (knock on wood) while many, many major corporations have been, at this point we should all have credit monitoring for life. Lastly we have refunds and canceling, have you not experienced or at least read about users difficulties in canceling subscriptions?

No, I'm not inclined to let you off the hook for the insult. None of my examples were hyperbolic, they were a rather straight forward description of how I feel the iOS experience will suffer under alt-stores.

YMMV but I won't insult you over your opinions.

The reason I considered your post hyperbolic is that it's all moot if 99% of apps are still on Apple's App Store - which they will be (in my opinion).

The only fragmentation will involve big players like Epic and Amazon, who have the pull to entice people to sign up with specific storefronts. I wouldn't consider those companies a risk, as you're unlikely to get malware from them, plus it's in their interest / they have the resources to provide good customer service.

I highly doubt anyone else will eschew the App Store completely, as they can't afford to. It's like ignoring eBay and only selling on Etsy. You may get a bigger slice, but it's of a much smaller pie.

Allowing alternative marketplaces seems to benefit two groups:

- Big companies that resent Apple taking a 30% cut of purchases (e.g. eBooks or games), just because they own the platform. Such companies are perfectly capable of handling payment processing etc. in house, without needing to rely on Apple.

- Users who want to install software that for whatever reason Apple doesn't allow in their App Store (e.g. emulators, adult content etc.). In this scenario, users have a responsibility to verify the provenance of what they're installing - just as they do on their Mac or PC. I'd be happy to download e.g. RetroArch from a GitHub marketplace.

Most developers will be entirely happy to let Apple handle the business side of things, and consider it money well spent. OTOH, if another storefront emerges that develops a good name for quality and service, and charges developers less than Apple, then the competition will be good for developers and their customers. Sure, Apple will be forced to compete a bit harder, reducing fees or providing other perks, but why is that a problem?

 

[dk001]

Your post was a bit “Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats living together! Mass hysteria!”.

The fact of the matter is that Android already has multiple app stores available, and the scenario you describe didn't play out like that. Practically everything is in the Play Store - certainly all the banking apps etc.

In my opinion, the only apps that would refuse to be in Apple's App Store are those that are themselves storefronts (like Epic's) - and that have the name recognition to get away it. People will endure the friction of signing up to another store for something they really want, like Fortnite, but aren't going to bother for the sake of some random app that has lots of competition.

Adding @icanhazmac @AlexMac89 @Sophisticatednut

Reading through this it is apparent that many have either over simplified the “side-loading” terminology or just don’t really know what it is. Most posts here treat side-loading and alt stores as the same thing. It isn’t.

On Android we have several layers of “alt stores” or side loading. They are actually quite different.

Play Store - Main Level (comes with the device)
OEM Stores - Second Level (comes with the device)
Alt Stores - things like F droid and Amazon (requires side-loading)
Direct Sites - buying directly from a dev; either corp or indie (requires side-loading)
Swamp - pretty much everything else. (requires side-loading) - may be more layers here but it is an area I haven’t delved into in years

For updating apps, most apps that are on the Play Store and an alt store you can update from either spot. The Play Store encourages you to use it but the option is there.

Now for Apple’s solution, what are they building? I seriously doubt they are directly copying Android.
The answer to this has a direct impact on the concern some allude to.

Think of this… Let’s say Apple is allowed to put the current proposal in place and verify/charge (commission?) like is claimed. Alphabet sees this and copies them. Then where would we be? Definitely not in a better place.

I expect the EU to come back hard on this triggering a number of ”designs”.

Thanks @Sophisticatednut for this. Starting and doing it as a Wiki was thoughful.

 

[Jim Lahey]

This is mischaracterising the situation. The point isn't to force Apple to behave like Google (God forbid). The point is to reduce the extent to which any company can rent seek. Meta and ByteDance are also in the crosshairs.

The only reason Google aren't falling foul of this legislation is because they already allow non-Google app stores. And that's just because they happen to have a different business model, where it's in their interests to do so. Not because they're such exemplars of virtue.

Not gonna lie, that's the most persuasive argument I've heard thus far. I remain wholly and steadfastly opposed to the whole thing but, my misgivings about the need and motivation of the EU's actions aside, I'm now more understanding of your POV 👍

 

[mode11]

On Android we have several layers of “alt stores” or side loading. They are actually quite different.

Play Store - Main Level (comes with the device)
OEM Stores - Second Level (comes with the device)
Alt Stores - things like F droid and Amazon (requires side-loading)
Direct Sites - buying directly from a dev; either corp or indie (requires side-loading)
Swamp - pretty much everything else. (requires side-loading) - may be more layers here but it is an area I haven’t delved into in years

OK, interesting. I don't own an Android device, but I presume the type of apps that would make it into the App Store on iOS are all in the Play Store? So you wouldn't need to look any further for any mainstream (e.g. banking) app?

Installing the Amazon App Store appears to just be a one time act of side-loading (saying Yes at the warning). This may give someone pause who's just started with Android, but seems painless enough. Once installed, it just acts like the Play or OEM Stores?

 

[h.gilbert]

BRB. Just off to demand that Volkswagen build rebranded BMWs because I bought BMW for decades despite hating them 👍

Macrumors obsession with poor car analogies strikes again.

 

[Jim Lahey]

Macrumors obsession with poor car analogies strikes again.

That was the entire point of it.

 

[icanhazmac]

The reason I considered your post hyperbolic is that it's all moot if 99% of apps are still on Apple's App Store - which they will be (in my opinion).

We are in agree to disagree land.

Freebie apps like banks, insurance companies, loyalty programs, will stay because there is no reason for them to invest in fronting their own apps as there is no income to be made from them. However, they might leave to circumvent the privacy scorecards and consumer data protections Apple provides. Starbucks, for example, was tied up in the whole clipboard skimming fiasco that we labeled as a "bug" by many large app devs.

Any well known name however can freely exit the Apple App store, forcing users to create accounts etc.

I wouldn't consider those companies a risk, as you're unlikely to get malware from them, plus it's in their interest / they have the resources to provide good customer service.

Malware is not an issue I have ever brought up. As far as customer service... back when satellite radio was big XM/Sirius was well known for making it extremely difficult to cancel a sub and many users will find out just how great it was to deal with canceling through Apple vs dealing with the individual devs.

Such companies are perfectly capable of handling payment processing etc. in house, without needing to rely on Apple.

Need I list the large corporations who have been hacked leaking customer data? Lots of big names on that list, like Microsoft. It's a numbers game, is my data out there in 1 store or 100, far more likely to get hacked/leaked with every additional store.

Users who want to install software that for whatever reason Apple doesn't allow in their App Store (e.g. emulators, adult content etc.).

On this we can agree, I wish Apple didn't play moral gatekeeper but it is not a large enough issue for me to want to switch ecosystems.

Sure, Apple will be forced to compete a bit harder, reducing fees or providing other perks, but why is that a problem?

Is it the end of the world, of course not, but fragmentation is fragmentation. I predict if Apple is forced, via legislation versus market forces, to allow alt-stores then the iOS app store will quickly look like the Mac app store, a barren wasteland. Face it, major devs want to control traffic and data collection, this is much easier if they don't need to deal with Apple's pro-consumer data protections.