Apple’s DMA malicious compliance explained.

[dk001]

OK, interesting. I don't own an Android device, but I presume the type of apps that would make it into the App Store on iOS are all in the Play Store? So you wouldn't need to look any further for any mainstream (e.g. banking) app?

Installing the Amazon App Store appears to just be a one time act of side-loading (saying Yes at the warning). This may give someone pause who's just started with Android, but seems painless enough. Once installed, it just acts like the Play or OEM Stores?

I own and use both.
Things like banking and most financial (except for things like Samsung Pay) all come from the Play Store. At least I have never loaded any of those from elsewhere.

For all others it is pretty much a one time install/approval task and once installed it is just like any other store. As an example I have Play Store / Samsung / F-Droid / Aurora / Amazon on my Samsung device. Samsung for Sammy specific apps, F-Droid/Aurora/Amazon for apps that the Play Store doesn’t carry for various reasons.

Updating is simple and usually auto if I want. One thing I like is I can approve by app and/or site for non-Play Store items.

One last thing, I have apps that are on the Play Store and on an Alt Store - most Alt Stores it is easier to search - and pretty much all of them I can update via Play or Alt. Android recommends the Play Store.

Personally I do not understand the purported reality behind the “OMG it is an ALT STORE” angst.

 

[mode11]

Any well known name however can freely exit the Apple App store, forcing users to create accounts etc.

Only if they're so desirable that people will follow them somewhere else. Otherwise, they'll just lose a customer.

Malware is not an issue I have ever brought up. As far as customer service... back when satellite radio was big XM/Sirius was well known for making it extremely difficult to cancel a sub and many users will find out just how great it was to deal with canceling through Apple vs dealing with the individual devs.

Fair enough.

Need I list the large corporations who have been hacked leaking customer data? Lots of big names on that list, like Microsoft. It's a numbers game, is my data out there in 1 store or 100, far more likely to get hacked/leaked with every additional store.

Good point, though I don't anticipate mass fragmentation of stores - I don't think anyone wants that. I'd still expect most people to get most apps from the official Apple Store (most are free anyway, so why go elsewhere?).

Face it, major devs want to control traffic and data collection, this is much easier if they don't need to deal with Apple's pro-consumer data protections.

True. Hopefully companies will feel they have more to lose by absenting themselves from the App Store.

 

[erikkfi]

Apple forces no one to do anything.

I know it's early in the year so this may not be saying much, but this is definitely the worst take I've seen all year.

 

[Ctrlos]

Not necessarily true, I have addressed this numerous times across these threads but here it is again...

Why would any dev waste the resources to create a mobile store for only a portion of the market? The smarter plan would be to wait and see if alt-stores are forced on Apple. Then one can open a mobile store that covers >98% of the market.

Steam only really caters to PC gamers.

 

[mode11]

Personally I do not understand the purported reality behind the “OMG it is an ALT STORE” angst.

I guess it's just unfamiliar to iOS users. Plus there's some staunch Apple defenders here.

As someone who switched from Mac to PC last summer, Android has some appeal in terms of (presumably) better PC integration. Apple do the absolute bare minimum in this regard. The main thing that would concern me with Android is my phone acting like a data hose, leading to Google. How much hassle is it to get an Android phone set up with decent privacy settings (assuming that's something that concerns you)?

In general though, I'm a happy iPhone user.

 

[Ctrlos]

Some good points well made. Digital lock-in is a pain. This is the cross we all bear when we choose to sign up for our free Life Invader accounts.

The only solution, if we really want one and aren’t just expecting government to run our lives, is to begin a slow disconnect from the services that tie us in. Then, if the time comes to switch to a different ecosystem, it’s relatively painless.

Forcing one company to behave like the other one is folly and hypocrisy in equal measure.

I haver actually been questioning the need for everything to be up in the cloud where its not in my house. Ripping thrift store CDs is cheaper than a music sub. Time Machine is still a really great way of backing up everything. This way all my data is on my property and I cannot get locked out of by a third party.

 

[mode11]

I haver actually been questioning the need for everything to be up in the cloud where its not in my house. Ripping thrift store CDs is cheaper than a music sub. Time Machine is still a really great way of backing up everything. This way all my data is on my property and I cannot get locked out of by a third party.

You'll want an off-site backup then, in case the worst happens. I keep (encrypted) back-up drives in my desk at work. Much faster to restore in an emergency than the cloud, and no on-going fees.

 

[icanhazmac]

Steam only really caters to PC gamers.

For now.

One could argue that they don't service the mobile crowd today because they cannot open a store that services both iOS and Android customers.

If alt-stores are forced to be permitted in iOS then I see a large number of mobile games moving to the Steam store because, as you stated, they are known for being a gaming store. The likes of Epic will follow, offering exclusive distribution deals to devs. Last I checked the Steam store does not have privacy cards so app devs will be able to skim all the data they want hidden behind a small novel of legal-ese in their user agreements.

 

[Jim Lahey]

I haver actually been questioning the need for everything to be up in the cloud where its not in my house. Ripping thrift store CDs is cheaper than a music sub. Time Machine is still a really great way of backing up everything. This way all my data is on my property and I cannot get locked out of by a third party.

Sage. The cloud is effectively just someone else’s computer. One over which you have no control. Besides things like syncing music and podcasts, I stopped storing any of my personal data in iCloud ages ago. Including photos, iOS backups and messages.

Local storage is fully FTW. Especially if you use a Mac as the primary OS. It requires more effort on the part of the user, but I’ve come to appreciate in recent times that the lust for convenience is the downfall of man 👍

 

[BaldiMac]

The point is to reduce the extent to which any company can rent seek.

1. It doesn't apply to any company.
2. The term rent seeking has a real definition that certainly doesn't apply since developers get real value from Apple's investment in iOS.
3. If the point was to prevent any company from charging developers for use of their platform, they could have easily and clearly done that.

 

[dk001]

I guess it's just unfamiliar to iOS users. Plus there's some staunch Apple defenders here.

As someone who switched from Mac to PC last summer, Android has some appeal in terms of (presumably) better PC integration. Apple do the absolute bare minimum in this regard. The main thing that would concern me with Android is my phone acting like a data hose, leading to Google. How much hassle is it to get an Android phone set up with decent privacy settings (assuming that's something that concerns you)?

In general though, I'm a happy iPhone user.

It all comes down to what you are looking for.
For my “most secure” Android device (currently setting up a Galaxy S24 Ultra), I have a specific account I use and went into Google and turned off or adjusted the settings that concern me. Nicely, it has no spam or other junk showing up in it. Tracking , data analysis, map tracking, etc have all be opted out of. I also, usually yearly, do a download of both Apple and Google to see what data they have on me. Samsung has the same type of privacy and opt out options. Most OEM’s that I have owned have this.

For my mail/calendar/password/ cloud - I don’t use Google. I replaced the stock apps with new defaults (currently using Proton). I do use Messages and RCS is as good as iMessage for me. I use Telegram a lot. No Chrome - ForeFox. I have uninstalled or turned off apps I don’t want that came with the device. Mostly uninstalled.

I setup a couple of secure folders for specific docs and apps - these use a separate pin code. My device is encrypted (Knox).

I have a 4TB portable SSD I use to back up my device.

I have done this in one form or another with all my devices. In the end I have a device I feel is more secure (for me) than my iPhone. This is predominately as I can define my defaults.

It comes down to trust. I trust Google to allow me to define what data is collected and how it is used. I sorta trust Apple to do the same.

I did formerly setup a Graphene device but it became more of a hassle than I was willing to invest. I did try a firewall on one device. Don’t currently use it.

I enjoy my iPhone - just wish I could do more with it and have a bit more control.

 

[mode11]

1. It doesn't apply to any company.

OK, not a mom and pop shop. Just any company large enough to be almost impossible to avoid paying if you want to do business online.

2. The term rent seeking has a real definition that certainly doesn't apply since developers get real value from Apple's investment in iOS.

Apple's developer charges are arbitrary - i.e. set at the highest they can get away with. Fair enough, they're a for-profit company, but it does mean they cream off enormous profits from owning one of the two mobile platforms (and the one with the highest revenues). They're not a $3Tn company for nothing.

Sure, they've done a lot to add value, but at this point, they can essentially take a hefty tax on mobile activity forever.

3. If the point was to prevent any company from charging developers for use of their platform, they could have easily and clearly done that.

Well, that wasn't the point.

 

[BaldiMac]

OK, not a mom and pop shop. Just any company large enough to be almost impossible to avoid paying if you want to do business online.

Nope. Just six companies.

Apple's developer charges are arbitrary - i.e. set at the highest they can get away with. Fair enough, they're a for-profit company, but it does mean they cream off enormous profits from owning one of the two mobile platforms (and the one with the highest revenues). They're not a $3Tn company for nothing.

Sure, they've done a lot to add value, but at this point, they can essentially take a hefty tax on mobile activity forever.

They're not arbitrary, their in line with the market. But none of that has anything to do with rent seeking.

Well, that wasn't the point.

Than what did you mean?

 

[Jim Lahey]

It all comes down to what you are looking for.
For my “most secure” Android device (currently setting up a Galaxy S24 Ultra), I have a specific account I use and went into Google and turned off or adjusted the settings that concern me. Nicely, it has no spam or other junk showing up in it. Tracking , data analysis, map tracking, etc have all be opted out of. I also, usually yearly, do a download of both Apple and Google to see what data they have on me. Samsung has the same type of privacy and opt out options. Most OEM’s that I have owned have this.

For my mail/calendar/password/ cloud - I don’t use Google. I replaced the stock apps with new defaults (currently using Proton). I do use Messages and RCS is as good as iMessage for me. I use Telegram a lot. No Chrome - ForeFox. I have uninstalled or turned off apps I don’t want that came with the device. Mostly uninstalled.

I setup a couple of secure folders for specific docs and apps - these use a separate pin code. My device is encrypted (Knox).

I have a 4TB portable SSD I use to back up my device.

I have done this in one form or another with all my devices. In the end I have a device I feel is more secure (for me) than my iPhone. This is predominately as I can define my defaults.

It comes down to trust. I trust Google to allow me to define what data is collected and how it is used. I sorta trust Apple to do the same.

I did formerly setup a Graphene device but it became more of a hassle than I was willing to invest. I did try a firewall on one device. Don’t currently use it.

I enjoy my iPhone - just wish I could do more with it and have a bit more control.

Informative. Thanks. I am mentally preparing to potentially switch to a de-Googled Android should I choose to fully detach from my Life Invader account (Apple ID in my case).

 

[Timo_Existencia]

The point isn't to force Apple to behave like Google (God forbid). The point is to reduce the extent to which any company can rent seek.

One definition of rent-seeking: Rent-seeking implies extraction of uncompensated value from others without making any contribution to productivity.

Rent-Seeking will be any business that takes advantage of the "free" aspect of using Apple's services and platform without cost. Apple is the one who is improving and growing the property; Apple is the one expending the energy to make the property valuable. The EU is attempting to create a whole class of businesses than can simply set up shop on Apple's property with zero compensation to Apple.

 

[mode11]

Nope. Just six companies.

How many of these companies do you think there are? And what's your point? That Apple are being victimised?

They're not arbitrary, their in line with the market. But none of that has anything to do with rent seeking.

They're arbitrary in the sense that the price is dictated by what the market will support, not the cost of providing the product or service. When you have a lock on a market, the market will support quite a lot, as there is no competition.

Than what did you mean?

When you said "if the point was to prevent any company from charging developers for use of their platform, they could have easily and clearly done that", I would assume 'they' refers to the EU. It's certainly not within my gift.

 

[mode11]

The EU is attempting to create a whole class of businesses than can simply set up shop on Apple's property with zero compensation to Apple.

Well, 27% compensation I believe, but who's counting.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

and what's your point? That Apple are being victimised?

Apple and its customers are being victimized. This is terrible law, setting a terrible precedent, whose only real purpose is protectionism. It's wholly unjustified by any appeal to common laws. The notion of the "gatekeeper" is an invented term that has no parallel in common law. The EU has just tried to set up legalized theft of value.

They're arbitrary in the sense that the price is dictated by what the market will support

What the market will support is not arbitrary. That's what a market is. And Apple only has 27% marketshare.

When you have a lock on a market, the market will support quite a lot, as there is no competition.

How you all think you can keep saying there's no competition, when clearly, obviously, there is, cracks me up.

 

[Timo_Existencia]

Well, 27% compensation I believe, but who's counting.

No, that's Apple's proposed fee. The EU says a business must receive these services for free.

Simply laughable.

 

[mode11]

The EU says a business must receive these services for free.

Really? Got a source for that? Genuinely, I'm looking for one myself.

 

[dk001]

Informative. Thanks. I am mentally preparing to potentially switch to a de-Googled Android should I choose to fully detach from my Life Invader account (Apple ID in my case).

If/When you do, there is a lot of info online on ways to do this and things to look for.

 

[BaldiMac]

How many of these companies do you think there are? And what's your point? That Apple are being victimised?

My point was that your claim was wrong.

They're arbitrary in the sense that the price is dictated by what the market will support, not the cost of providing the product or service. When you have a lock on a market, the market will support quite a lot, as there is no competition.

Hah! That's basic economics. Pricing should be dictated by what the market will support, not the cost of the product. Nothing arbitrary about that. And like I said, there pricing is inline with other platform fees. Particularly game consoles.

And again, none of this is "rent seeking".

When you said "if the point was to prevent any company from charging developers for use of their platform, they could have easily and clearly done that", I would assume 'they' refers to the EU. It's certainly not within my gift.

I have no idea what you are getting at here. You claimed the point was to reduce rent seeking. Since rent seeking is not the correct term for what we are talking about, I'm asking you what you actually meant.

 

[mode11]

What the market will support is not arbitrary. That's what a market is. And Apple only has 27% marketshare.

How you all think you can keep saying there's no competition, when clearly, obviously, there is, cracks me up.

It's a bit more complicated than that:

• iOS was responsible for 66% of app consumer spending in 2023
• Subscription revenues increased to $45.6 billion in 2023, iOS was responsible for 76% of that revenue

Source: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/

So if you're an app developer, iOS is the no.1 game in town. Mostly because that's where all the rich users are. Sure, you can choose to ignore it, but realistically you wouldn't want to.

The competition I'm referring to is the App Store. Apple obviously want a free run there, and would rather not face competition from companies that might provide the same services at lower cost, whether to themselves or others.

 

[dk001]

It's a bit more complicated than that:

• iOS was responsible for 66% of app consumer spending in 2023
• Subscription revenues increased to $45.6 billion in 2023, iOS was responsible for 76% of that revenue

Source: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/

So if you're an app developer, iOS is the no.1 game in town. Mostly because that's where all the rich users are. Sure, you can choose to ignore it, but realistically you wouldn't want to.

The competition I'm referring to is the App Store. Apple obviously want a free run there, and would rather not face competition from companies that might provide the same services at lower cost, whether to themselves or others.

While I agree with the $$, shareholders do too, I also wonder if it is also about power / control. IMO I suspect it is both and Apple wants to share neither.

 

[BaldiMac]

It's a bit more complicated than that:

• iOS was responsible for 66% of app consumer spending in 2023
• Subscription revenues increased to $45.6 billion in 2023, iOS was responsible for 76% of that revenue

Source: https://www.businessofapps.com/data/app-revenues/

So if you're an app developer, iOS is the no.1 game in town. Mostly because that's where all the rich users are. Sure, you can choose to ignore it, but realistically you wouldn't want to.

The competition I'm referring to is the App Store. Apple obviously want a free run there, and would rather not face competition from companies that might provide the same services at lower cost, whether to themselves or others.

Those aren't EU numbers. But more to the point, it's almost as if the walled garden approach is better for developers than the open approach being pushed on Apple.