Apple's subtle plan to turn me into a movie pirate, or: HDCP/DRM is Rubbish!

[notjustjay]

Does the iTunes store have sales on movies and TV shows?

I was considering buying The West Wing box set around Christmas.

...
It's seems neither the Studios or Apple will compromise on pricing enough to entice me to buy it. Maybe if the ever release a BluRay version, it will have the "digital copy" included. Standard def most likely.

I've seen torrents for it but I prefer not to do that type of thing, for those that do, I don't have a problem with you for circumventing the headaches.

Apple does sometimes have sales on some movies. $4.99 titles for example. This is my price point for buying movies on iTunes. Personally, I feel that digital movies need to have a significant discount from the selling price of a DVD or Blu-Ray. You don't get the physical media, you don't get the extra features, you don't even get subtitles. In addition, physical media such as DVDs can go on sale, and can be bought (or sold) on the second-hand market, which gives them even more value. Why would I buy a movie off iTunes for $19.99 when the Blu-Ray is selling for $22.99? Or if the DVD will show up on Wal-Mart's shelves for $10 in a few months?

 

[jlasoon]

Just become a pirate. It's much easier and simpler.

That's the problem, it shouldn't be. I have a 40mbps connection and access to usernet, I know what's available. The paranoia expressed by the studios is justified.

 

[TBi]

By that argument, it would be fine for me to keep stealing out of your wallet as long as your income stays ahead of my stealing your money.

Sure people can get around DRM if they want to go that route but it's all they can do to protect their product from theft. Do you lock your doors? Any good burglar could break in so why bother? The robber is poorer than you, how dare you keep them from getting your stuff!

The movie business is an expensive business that gives a livelihood to thousands of people. I wonder how many of those movies you've stolen are by an independent movie maker who barely made any money on it, if any. My nephew used to be a manager in a movie theater for a huge chain and the theaters are struggling to stay alive because fewer people are leaving home to watch movies. If you were in the type of business that involved working hard on something that someone can just take away from you for free, you might feel differently.

Most people are good honest hardworking folks who pay good money to see good content. They don't want to steal other peoples work, so they shouldn't be accused of it when they do buy something (The whole "you wouldn't steal a car" crap at the start of a movie).

I'm not advocating that it should be easy to rip a DVD, i'm just saying that it shouldn't be so hard to watch for a person who paid good money for it. A DVD had understandable DRM, HDCP isn't (What i can't use my brand new €4000 HDTV with this because it doesn't support HDCP? So it's basically worthless.)

To your point about burglars... would you buy an alarm that the burglars all had the code to and a key so they can get in without tripping it but you keep inadvertantly setting it off? No matter how good your security is a determined burglar will get in. In the studio's case it would be like me charging you to come into my house as a friend, just so i can afford a better security system. Oh and constantly watching you to make sure you don't steal from me...

Also i'm not advocating stealing. Hey let me pay for the stuff, i will do. Just give it to me in the way i want. I'd be more like a burglar entering into your shop using a key, taking a loaf of bread and leaving the money there for it because i don't like talking to you. You still get paid, i still get the bread, just in the way i want it.

Also independent films ususally don't come with heineous stupid DRM so i buy/rent them. Also i usually just rent DVD's, i won't rent Blu-Ray because i don't think the increased 'quality' is worth the headache.

 

[iNeko]

Sometimes I get the HDCP error on my AppleTV, but it goes away after a restart

 

[RWinOR]

Who's the pirate?

First off I do not visit torrents, and believe people should be paid for what they produce, but I do have a question.

I am in the process of converting all my previously owned DVD's to digital copies so I can stream on my own home network. I have found that on average 1 of 10 cannot be ripped. This is very frustrating.

So the movie companies want me to pay a second time for something I already own. HUM.... who is the pirate in this case. Can you imagine going into a restaurant and ordering a meal, the waiter brings it to you, it is cold (one method of delivery) and unprepared. You ask to have it heated (second method of delivery) and the waiter tells you, you need to pay full price again. Where is the logic in that. I already own my movie. The disk plays fine in a dvd player. I simply want to change the media style. This should not be a crime.

Second thought on piracy. You go to the store and buy something you do not like. You take it back for a full refund, no problem right. Now you go buy a music CD or a DVD. You are disgusted by what is on the disk and wish to return it. But wait it is open, so you are assumed to be a pirate and to have made an illegal copy. It cannot be returned. The consumer can make no stand against trash other then to not buy it in the first place. But if you have no idea what is on it. how would you know? This is mostly true with music, you may have heard one or two songs which you may like, and the rest are absolutely disgusting. Here again who is the pirate, I feel the music and movie industries have created their own mess by their narrow minded one sided version of IP.

I believe we should all purchase what we wish to own, and be paid for what we do, but we should only have one transaction. Not 5 or six times. If I change media style I can agree with paying a small conversion fee. However I do not agree with paying full price over and over and over for the same exact thing. The only exception to this I can see is if I somehow damage my media then I should have to replace it. But if it is playing well, I should not be required to buy additional copies for every media I want, Apple Itunes, Sony Playstation, Amazon movie format, etc. All digital copies should be equal, and I should be able to create my own digital version for home use.

IMHO

 

[mstrze]

So the movie companies want me to pay a second time for something I already own. HUM.... who is the pirate in this case. Can you imagine going into a restaurant and ordering a meal, the waiter brings it to you, it is cold (one method of delivery) and unprepared. You ask to have it heated (second method of delivery) and the waiter tells you, you need to pay full price again. Where is the logic in that. I already own my movie. The disk plays fine in a dvd player. I simply want to change the media style. This should not be a crime.

This is a justification for you, but it doesn't make sense for someone to give you something for free if you already own a copy of it. For example, If you owned Synchronicity, by the Police on LP (those big, black round records people used to be able to play) You are arguing that A&M records should just give you a CD or tape version of it for free, or the digital download, just because you 'own' the music in one format. The whole point of buying it on tape and CD is portability. There is a reason someone might want to purchase it in a different format (in fact with this album in particular, I believe the song "Murder by Numbers" was NOT on the LP, so in fact you get that as a bonus in the other formats. )

With a DVD, people who owned a movie already on VHS or Beta would have bought for the clearer picture, random access to tracks and extra features. For BluRay, people are paying for a hi-def picture and multiple features. It makes sense for people to upgrade to get the extras (better video quality, deleted scenes, commentary..etc).

BUT you seem to think that since someone already owns one copy, the movie companies should just give away any future versions in any and all new formats. That's a logistical nightmare, and it cuts off a whole lot of future revenue and in turn, it makes it much harder for those companies to perform their main job, which is making movies.

Now, I firmly agree with those folks who say they should make it easier for people to just enjoy their movies legally, and I am also of the opinion that we should be able to rip discs of movies into iTunes like we do with CDs.

The ultimate solution may be that no one owns anything in the future, but we pay a monthly licensing fee (think Netflix) to stream any movie to our home systems. May not be ideal for those who like to own, but for me, right now...trying to pare down my collection of stuff...it is a very tempting idea to have access to any and every movie ever made without having to worry about paying for it on an individual basis or keeping it stored somewhere.

 

[RWinOR]

MSTRZE, I am old enough to have owned purchased and played, vinyl records, 33 and 45, 8-track tapes, Cassettes, CD, and now digital. Just because I have an opinion about wanting a digital copy or being able to rip my own digital copy in no way makes me a child.

If you read my post I agree with paying up charges for the new features, and new media. I will however stand by my point that I should not have to pay for a CD or DVD to turnaround and purchase the same thing digitally so I can stream on my home network. There have been many newer released DVDs which will not rip, and the digital copy is not available. How should that be solved? Oh yes once the movie companies make a digital copy I will need to purchased it again, why would I pay twice?

I am in NO WAY justifying torrents, or illegal copies, I am simply posting an alternate view of who the pirate really is. I do own all my own media, and I have spent countless hours ripping CD's and DVD's, and on the movies I really want to keep in my library I have purchased another legal digital copy.

 

[mstrze]

MSTRZE, I am old enough to have owned purchased and played, vinyl records, 33 and 45, 8-track tapes, Cassettes, CD, and now digital. Just because I have an opinion about wanting a digital copy or being able to rip my own digital copy in no way makes me a child.

Where was I calling you a child or childish?

 

[MacBoobsPro]

The irony is with pirated copies is that the pirate warnings are stripped out

They need a better way of doing things but the studios are lazy and retarded.

 

[TBi]

This is a justification for you, but it doesn't make sense for someone to give you something for free if you already own a copy of it. For example, If you owned Synchronicity, by the Police on LP (those big, black round records people used to be able to play) You are arguing that A&M records should just give you a CD or tape version of it for free, or the digital download, just because you 'own' the music in one format. The whole point of buying it on tape and CD is portability. There is a reason someone might want to purchase it in a different format (in fact with this album in particular, I believe the song "Murder by Numbers" was NOT on the LP, so in fact you get that as a bonus in the other formats. )

With a DVD, people who owned a movie already on VHS or Beta would have bought for the clearer picture, random access to tracks and extra features. For BluRay, people are paying for a hi-def picture and multiple features. It makes sense for people to upgrade to get the extras (better video quality, deleted scenes, commentary..etc).

BUT you seem to think that since someone already owns one copy, the movie companies should just give away any future versions in any and all new formats. That's a logistical nightmare, and it cuts off a whole lot of future revenue and in turn, it makes it much harder for those companies to perform their main job, which is making movies.

Now, I firmly agree with those folks who say they should make it easier for people to just enjoy their movies legally, and I am also of the opinion that we should be able to rip discs of movies into iTunes like we do with CDs.

The ultimate solution may be that no one owns anything in the future, but we pay a monthly licensing fee (think Netflix) to stream any movie to our home systems. May not be ideal for those who like to own, but for me, right now...trying to pare down my collection of stuff...it is a very tempting idea to have access to any and every movie ever made without having to worry about paying for it on an individual basis or keeping it stored somewhere.

I think his argument was that if you own a copy then you should be able to make your own copy as you will. So if you want to copy a vinyl to CD (no increase in quality) then you should be. The same if you want to copy your VHS to a DVD (no increase in quality). However doing so labels you a pirate.

I don't see anywhere where he advocates that the companies should send him newer higher quality versions or allow him a new digital download.

 

[Manzanito]

Maybe I don't understand the issue. The problem is actually with your tv, right? I just bought Resident Evil: Extinction from iTunes (first movie I actually bought rather than rented) and it played via airplay from my Macbook Pro to ATV(2) just fine.

I tried torrenting for a hot minute and decided not to anymore. I found:

1) It's largely a waste of time downloading a file of hit or miss quality and, in one case, an unannounced Russian version and another case, a movie where the last 10 minutes was suddenly in Russian. Then there's the Handbraking, adding meta tags, etc. My time is worth more than the $20 it costs to get a perfect movie for the ATV environment.

2) I'm an adult who can afford to buy movies, not steal them.

3) I'm not a movie hoarder and don't share movies with other people so it won't cost a lot to get the few movies I actually want to watch more than once.

4) It's illegal and I don't want to be that kind of person. I don't cheat at anything else so why would I do that here?

Everybody makes decisions about the kind of person they want to be...

Not so fast, you torrented for a minute, so you're inevitably tainted forever and ever in the eyes of MPAA

I think you're missing the point here. Nobody says it's ok to pirate movies, just that we, honest consumers, shouldn't pay the consequences of piracy.

I'm sick of all those warnings I am forced to watch every time I put a DVD or a Blu Ray. People downloading movies don't have to suffer them.

Why bother with all this DRM crap? It hasn't stopped pirates, so I say don't annoy the people who actually BUY movies.

 

[GFLPraxis]

This is a justification for you, but it doesn't make sense for someone to give you something for free if you already own a copy of it. For example, If you owned Synchronicity, by the Police on LP (those big, black round records people used to be able to play) You are arguing that A&M records should just give you a CD or tape version of it for free, or the digital download, just because you 'own' the music in one format. The whole point of buying it on tape and CD is portability. There is a reason someone might want to purchase it in a different format (in fact with this album in particular, I believe the song "Murder by Numbers" was NOT on the LP, so in fact you get that as a bonus in the other formats. )

Except that it costs money to manufacture the CD's and tapes.

Terrible analogy.

The digital world is different. Once the distribution structure is in place, the cost of distribution is effectively nill, to the point that people at home can make the modification themselves.

I could make the conversion myself. I can take a MP4 file and convert it to a DivX file. Piece of cake. This is about being allowed to do what you wish with something you've purchased. With iTunes, you've got these artificial locks on what you've purchased preventing you from using it as you wish.

You buy a movie off of iTunes. You want to stream it to your Playstation 3. You shouldn't have to buy the movie again. This isn't like your horrid analogy of having to buy it again in a different physical format for it to work in the player. If it didn't have software locks, I could convert it myself. Stripping out the ability for me to convert it myself is artificially forcing me to buy it again.

Just because I bought it on DVD doesn't mean I am entitled to the Blu-ray release. But if I bought a DVD, I should have the right to do with that DVD what I want (rip the video and put it on my PS3, for example). And the same principle goes to iTunes.

That's why I won't buy movies off of iTunes. It gives me literally unusuable video that is artificially modified to prevent me from using it as I wish.


The person you are responding to was complaining about being forced to buy the same content in five different ways to use it under different DRM scheme, not being 'forced' to re-buy to get better quality as your analogy targets.

 

[DraziGuy]

Here's what DRM is all about

Locks keep honest people honest. I think that is what DRM is about. If it is hard for the average person to make a copy of a movie and give it to a friend, which many wouldn't even consider theft, then the average person won't. DRM isn't aimed at 99% of the people reading sites like these, because we know what it is any how to defeat it. We know how to pirate movies if we so desire. We know what to do if our DRM encumbered media doesn't work. We are not the point. The point is to make my mom less likely to copy a movie and hand it off to a friend at work. If DRM wasn't in place, she could just pop it into a device of some sort, hit duplicate, and give that copy to a friend.]

All that being said, I still don't like DRM and don't think it is yet satisfactory as implemented. I have a collection that sits somewhere around 500 DVDs, and probably 200 movies/TV episodes purchased from iTunes. It bugs me to no end that my iTunes video files won't play on my PS3, and that I cannot integrate my purchased content into XBMC, which hosts all of my copied DVD content. But at least I do get what they are aiming at, and hopefully someone really smart somewhere will come up with a way to make it all work without inconveniencing me.

 

[GFLPraxis]

Locks keep honest people honest. I think that is what DRM is about. If it is hard for the average person to make a copy of a movie and give it to a friend, which many wouldn't even consider theft, then the average person won't. DRM isn't aimed at 99% of the people reading sites like these, because we know what it is any how to defeat it. We know how to pirate movies if we so desire. We know what to do if our DRM encumbered media doesn't work. We are not the point. The point is to make my mom less likely to copy a movie and hand it off to a friend at work. If DRM wasn't in place, she could just pop it into a device of some sort, hit duplicate, and give that copy to a friend.]

In theory- in original conception- perhaps. Not in modern implementation. DRM implementation is nothing like this.

Modern DRM technologies like HDCP are clearly intended to not stop "mom and pop" copying, but disable any older devices that don't implement HDCP in order to create an ecosystem in which nobody can copy movies because copying devices are non-HDCP-compliant.

Of course, it's all been cracked and you can get the media in other formats, so HDCP ends up doing nothing except disabling a lot of people's older TVs.

Today's DRM isn't about making it too complicated for mom and pop to copy a CD. They're constantly making it absurdly overprotected in order to make piracy impossible, which, of course, it never succeeds in and only hurts users more and more.

When copy protection goes above and beyond making it 'difficult' to copy and gets to the point of making your media unusable on much of your equipment, it is unacceptable.

HDCP is unacceptable, and to me personally, so is iTunes' DRM, which is why I won't buy movie content.

 

[CylonGlitch]

HDCP is unacceptable, and to me personally, so is iTunes' DRM, which is why I won't buy movie content.

That is perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean you have the right to steal it. If you aren't going to pay for it; you should not have it.

 

[Consultant]

Not Apple but fault of dim dinosaur content owners.

 

[camelsnot]

Not Apple but fault of dim dinosaur content owners.

not true. It's the fruity-themed company's bloated entertainment software interface (bloatTunes) injecting DRM once you buy into their walled garden.

Simple. Quit supporting Apple's DRM by not buying content from them.

 

[Anonymous Freak]

Here's a JPG I got from somewhere that explains the situation:

That is excellent!

I was *REALLY* hoping Blu-ray/HD DVD would do away with that... With onboard storage, I was hoping they would store "already watched the trailers", and skip them for subsequent viewings. Generally no such luck.

 

[Sparky9292]

DRM Conversion Guide

Just become a pirate. It's much easier and simpler.

Well I found this video helps me when dealing with the DRM of Disney Movies:

DRM Conversion Starter Guide for AppleTV

 

[CylonGlitch]

Well I found this video helps me when dealing with the DRM of Disney Movies:

DRM Conversion Starter Guide for AppleTV

I just got hit tonight with a nasty DRM. And it is quite ironic. The movie, Twilight that my wife purchased. Nothing ripped it without a problem. The ironic part; it came with a free digital copy, but that code EXPIRED. So they were willing to give away a digital copy but they won't let you make your own.

Oh well, I got it ripped but it may not work, I haven't tried it yet.

 

[ngenerator]

Arrghhh, Good to have ya aboard, matey! <in lieu of an eyepatch, you get sunglasses>

Locks keep honest people honest. I think that is what DRM is about. If it is hard for the average person to make a copy of a movie and give it to a friend, which many wouldn't even consider theft, then the average person won't.

I could see this being the norm, but I make it a point to go out of my way to show all my friends and family how to use Handbrake for all their movies I like dissenting

 

[RWinOR]

I just got hit tonight with a nasty DRM. And it is quite ironic. The movie, Twilight that my wife purchased. Nothing ripped it without a problem. The ironic part; it came with a free digital copy, but that code EXPIRED. So they were willing to give away a digital copy but they won't let you make your own.

Oh well, I got it ripped but it may not work, I haven't tried it yet.

This same thing happened to me on several BluRay movies I purchased. Why do they post a time limit on the digital download?

 

[GFLPraxis]

That is perfectly fine, but that doesn't mean you have the right to steal it. If you aren't going to pay for it; you should not have it.

Where in my post did I even remotely suggest that you should be stealing it instead? I believe I simple stated that DRM is stupid, a load of crap, and even mentioned in my prior post purchasing movies and then downloading them so as to have a DRM-free version.

(And, piracy is not theft. It is copyright infringement/duplication of copyrighted works. They are legally different offenses)

 

[Oneness]

First off I do not visit torrents, and believe people should be paid for what they produce, but I do have a question.

I am in the process of converting all my previously owned DVD's to digital copies so I can stream on my own home network. I have found that on average 1 of 10 cannot be ripped. This is very frustrating.

So the movie companies want me to pay a second time for something I already own. HUM.... who is the pirate in this case. Can you imagine going into a restaurant and ordering a meal, the waiter brings it to you, it is cold (one method of delivery) and unprepared. You ask to have it heated (second method of delivery) and the waiter tells you, you need to pay full price again. Where is the logic in that. I already own my movie. The disk plays fine in a dvd player. I simply want to change the media style. This should not be a crime.

Second thought on piracy. You go to the store and buy something you do not like. You take it back for a full refund, no problem right. Now you go buy a music CD or a DVD. You are disgusted by what is on the disk and wish to return it. But wait it is open, so you are assumed to be a pirate and to have made an illegal copy. It cannot be returned. The consumer can make no stand against trash other then to not buy it in the first place. But if you have no idea what is on it. how would you know? This is mostly true with music, you may have heard one or two songs which you may like, and the rest are absolutely disgusting. Here again who is the pirate, I feel the music and movie industries have created their own mess by their narrow minded one sided version of IP.

I believe we should all purchase what we wish to own, and be paid for what we do, but we should only have one transaction. Not 5 or six times. If I change media style I can agree with paying a small conversion fee. However I do not agree with paying full price over and over and over for the same exact thing. The only exception to this I can see is if I somehow damage my media then I should have to replace it. But if it is playing well, I should not be required to buy additional copies for every media I want, Apple Itunes, Sony Playstation, Amazon movie format, etc. All digital copies should be equal, and I should be able to create my own digital version for home use.

IMHO

Best post of this thread. Period.

 

[laurim]

(And, piracy is not theft. It is copyright infringement/duplication of copyrighted works. They are legally different offenses)

Keep telling yourself that... I'm sure you're using the movies to create an art project and not because you don't want to spend money.