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Apples treatment of the Pro market.
- Thread starter zedster
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Professional software is important, because ideas and techniques developed in professional software can filter down to consumer software and visa versa.
I think it can and should be viewed as strategically significant.
I'd like to see Apple develop both Mac OS X and Macintosh software a little differently to reflect its maturity. Rather than producing a new version with hundreds of new features every 18-30 months, it would be better to take a more iterative approach to development, with smaller releases more often.
Smooth out the little annoyances and glitches. Go into large organisations, small businesses, schools, universities. Identify pain points with compatibility, performance or configuration - and then fix them. Optimise everything.
It might be boring, but it would likely serve Apple's users better than the current strategy.
I think it can and should be viewed as strategically significant.
I'd like to see Apple develop both Mac OS X and Macintosh software a little differently to reflect its maturity. Rather than producing a new version with hundreds of new features every 18-30 months, it would be better to take a more iterative approach to development, with smaller releases more often.
Smooth out the little annoyances and glitches. Go into large organisations, small businesses, schools, universities. Identify pain points with compatibility, performance or configuration - and then fix them. Optimise everything.
It might be boring, but it would likely serve Apple's users better than the current strategy.
While I agree that'll help the users better, I'm sure a few people will say that process isn't profitable enough. Or Apple's first (and possibly only) obligation is to make its shareholders as much money as possible. While I don't like that, enough of the people that make the decisions think that.
That sounds somewhat like faulty logic...
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I don't agree at all with the assessment that Apple is abandoning the pro-market. Apple is rather trying to push that market to a drastically different direction. Apple is betting on certain industry trends and they believe that even at Pro level, some radical transformation to simpler approaches is the way to go.
Time will tell if they have it right or wrong, but I wouldn't bet against Apple's vision. They have proven again and again that they get it right much more often than they got it wrong.
I remember when people argued that apple should cater more to consumers to broaden their reach and make more money, so that's what they did, and they're leaving the pro's behind because mainly of this:
You fail to realize that the prosumer basket is quite larger than the "real" "pro" one, as such they haven't left the pro market yet, only if they really cancel the Mac Pro we'll see apple moving completely to the larger basket.
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Thing is seems apple doesn't see it that way :S
You fail to realize that the prosumer basket is quite larger than the "real" "pro" one, as such they haven't left the pro market yet, only if they really cancel the Mac Pro we'll see apple moving completely to the larger basket.
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Thing is seems apple doesn't see it that way :S
I don't know. To me having everything on site inside my computer is as simple as it gets.
Cloud computing, external devices, etc add infrastructure and compexity and you are also dependent on others in regard to the cloud.
Professionals don't want simple. they want it to work. Throwing more obstacles in there way or changing their work flow is not what pros want.
There is no reason for average joe to be using Final Cut. And the Pro doesn't want a slimed down version of a powerful editing tool.
There is no reason for average joe to be using Final Cut. And the Pro doesn't want a slimed down version of a powerful editing tool.
In the entire world there are fewer than 50 active Formula 1 drivers, out of billions of "prosumer" and "consumer" drivers, yet Ferrari, Mercedes et al all consider it worth the ten of millions they each invest in it every year - because it sells more cars. The kudos associated by being used by the Gods will always provide a positive effect at the bottom end and that will never change. The impact of neglecting the top end might not be apparent quickly but once it takes effect it is nigh on impossible to reverse it.
The "Pros" in the tech market aren't "Gods" to the average user. They are virtually unknown.
Let's leave the car/driver analogies where they belong: cars.
Apple has been treating the Pro market like second class for years now.
Here's the result:
Massive adoption of iOS (currently has the lion's share of mobile operating systems)
Record quarters
Best-selling smartphone, nearly 30% US share, all under the same roof (Apple)
Ridiculous domination of the tablet segment
$80+ billion in cash
OS X share/Mac sales hitting record highs
This:
http://techcrunch.com/2010/05/26/apple-microsoft-market-cap-2/
And this:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...nkruptcy-to-become-most-valuable-company.html
Apple no longer needs "Pros" on their side, especially when Prosumers are encroaching on the "Pro" market on a daily basis. The Pro segment is woefully niche, and shrinking. It's no longer a badge of honour to claim that "Professionals" use high-end Macs, when the average user can achieve similar results at about half the cost, with a MacBook Pro or an iMac. Hell, even an iPhone. Look at what the iPhone has done to photography. Look at what today's Prosumer-level tools are capable of. This was unheard of just a few years ago.
Soon, even grandma can edit.
Prosumers don't need Gods when their tools enable them to be Gods already.
No, it's not on the level of Avid maybe, or on the level of DSLRs and high-end Photoshop editing. But no one really cares. Coming damn close is more than good enough.
Today, it's all about empowering Joe Average. It's a massive shift from years ago. And it's obviously working.
I care. Damned right, I care. And what really winds me up on this site; a pale shadow of what it used to be, apart from traffic, are spotty no-nothings telling me, and others like me who use their Macs to put food on the table, what their goddamned computing needs are or should be, saying utterly stupid things like:
Locked into workflows, software and equipment needs that rely on Apple's continuing development and support, I have nothing but contempt to see them allegedly throwing research and money into developing television sets, a market that operates on the thinnest of margins... while dithering about with the Mac Pros.
In 20 years of using Macs for work, seen it happen too many times with Apple. They let a product wither and stagnate, then kill it, because it's not performing... and there are a ton of people on this forum that aren't interested in what some slavish over-jizzed iOS or iMac wielding fool thinks what people who use their Macs to pay the rent need for their work.
Woohoo! Apple's a behemoth! It's cash-rich! So damned what. When they can't or won't bring a product to market that millions of people would buy in order to pay their way through life you know, creating stuff then I'm supposed to be jumping for joy that they've got the music player market locked down and the board are pocketing more in bonuses than any of us would see in a lifetime...
Get real.
Now ^^that^^ is a good post.
But then again it is a dispute many of us have had with *LTD* for longer than I care to remember.
I'd love to be able to earn a living as some apparently do by sipping loose leaf green tea and pontificating on MacRumors
Don't really care who it is. These rare days, I only pay attention to those who have been here a long time and who I know from experience talk sense.
Thing is, Apple isn't my favourite sports team who I'll root for. They're a corporation that makes products and services, some of which I use, some of which are good, some of which have been a bit crappy.
Their needless secrecy at times has been an obstacle to planning equipment purchases for enterprise; the struggle in getting inhouse IT teams to wrap their heads around the idea that a new Mac costing thousands won't support booting an older OS so that it can talk to Exchange Server 2003 was a meeting I'll never forget. And you know, they were right.
I'm not going to wet myself because they're achieving near-monopoly in certain markets. I give them my money, expect something in return and which I rely on to get my work done... it's a cold, hard-headed and realistic transaction, not something to give them the starry-eyed reach-around over.
Anyway, I've said my piece. My advice to some people is to leave threads like this alone, to those who are actually professionals, lest you make a fool of yourselves.
Market realities sometimes don't reflect what you would like them to. When you're on the receiving end of change, the important thing is to 1) adapt, and 2) stay classy. I hope you're doing at least one of those.
Welcome to the modern tech market. This is how it is going forward. I get that you don't like it, but complaining about an obviously successful strategy won't actually change it. In fact, judging from your anger, all it has caused you is more anger and frustration. Why not move to a different platform if what Apple is doing (and will continue to do) is so objectionable to you.
It seems your issue isn't just with their treatment of the Mac Pro line but their entire business strategy in general. Not very productive way of looking at Apple, especially if you intend to remain an Apple customer. Unless you enjoy your suffering.
I'm the only one of us that actually is.
You're entitled to your opinion. As am I. However, one is based on the market realities of 2011 (and for the foreseeable future), while the other is stuck 10-15 years in the past.
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Unfortunately (or incidentally, depending on your position), "Professional" does not = "Realist."
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Thankfully, the only difference between us seems to be tea.
I recommend it. It'll do your health a world of good. Just don't get that cheap bagged junk.
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As if no-one who uses their Mac for work and has bought for enterprise knows nothing about the 'modern tech market'. Don't try to patronise me or anyone else in this thread.
That would be swell, cowboy. Obviously 'prosumers' like yourself understand that there are Mac-specific plug-ins for prepress and other professional workflows across a bunch of creative industries that Windows isn't set up for.
Honestly, if you haven't any experience of these things, it's better to read and learn before you stick your foot in your mouth. Seriously.
Sorry, but you're talking nonsense. The only productive way for professionals to look at Apple is whether they're releasing apps and products that are fit for purpose, not getting excited about their marketshare in phones.
As is clear, you know little about the market realities of what professionals need in 2011 and what they rely on. Your stance is clearly to cheerlead whatever Apple do, that's nice for you, but you clearly don't rely on this stuff to make a living, so telling professionals what they need and what they expect from Apple is little more than nonsensical gibberish.
Just what exactly is your purpose in posting in a thread like this, anyway?
Plannng your purchases and buying gear to make it work for you so that you can afford to live is a damned sight more realistic than dropping your panties every time Apple posts a record quarter.
The only problem is that there aren't millions of people that would buy a Mac Pro. In 2009, a total of 2.54 million workstations were sold. That number includes workstations from all manufacturers such as Dell and HP. Depending on the source, Apple's market share is between 5% and 10%. Hence Mac Pro sales would be around 127,000-254,000 per year. Far, far away from millions.
Moreover, 2009 was a better year for Mac Pro. Apple got early access to Nehalem Xeons and iMac wasn't as big rival as it is now. 2010 Mac Pro update was months late. Now it's been what, 16 months without an update. Okay, SNB-E Xeons aren't out yet so that explains it but Apple hasn't even bothered about updating the GPUs in the meanwhile. Most of the software side has already been done since iMacs and MBPs already use AMD 6xxxM graphics. Things like these don't exactly boost the already bad sales. To be honest, I don't think Apple has sold over 100,000 Mac Pros in 2011.
Fair point. However, this is entirely a situation of Apple's making. Mac Pros have become absurdly expensive in markets outside the US... many inhouse studios I've worked in here in the UK have struggled to justify their purchases where iMacs are not ideal purchases.
The iMac used to be the entry-level Mac, but Steve Jobs pushed his vision of sealed appliances to such an extent, that they became the mid-level Mac, creating a gap at the bottom for the Mini. However, to preserve some level of differentiation between products, the Mac Pro has been wedged into this high-end space that they've priced themselves out of their core markets.
Furthermore, people like me, who would really like to buy one this year simply aren't going to put down the cash to buy a machine of this calibre without USB 3 and Thunderbolt. I don't care what the issue is with Intel; I've had my fingers burned before with Apple's slow uptake of USB 2.
I'm glad it seems they're having an internal debate about the future of the Mac Pro, but personally speaking, if there's no Mac for the likes of me to use, then there's little incentive to buy other products within the Apple ecosystem, since vertical integration is their biggest selling point.
But my main point is, is that I couldn't care less what Apple's success is in various consumer appliance markets. It's mostly irrelevant to me, as it is for many others. And for some people on this forum to imply that the interests of professionals should be the same as Apple's responsibilities to its shareholders is utterly absurd, cheerleading the company's success as they remove the XServe, stop making decent displays, amongst many other missteps.
Apple is huge. If Sony and Philips can maintain successful professional divisions, there's absolutely no reason why Apple can't either, except for lack of will.
Definitely. Last time I checked, a Dell workstation comparable to base Mac Pro was over $1000 cheaper. And it was a workstation with Xeon CPU, ECC RAM, AMD FirePro graphics etc, not a consumer level machine with "close enough" specs.
It's kind of ridiculous that in 2006 when Mac Pro was introduced, the entry level model was priced at $2199, yet the price of its CPUs were over a double compared to the price of the CPU in today's $2499 model ($632 vs $294). It really seems that Apple is digging the grave for Mac Pro by pricing it too high. Then they can dump it based on poor sales.
Of course. It was deliberate. They saw the Pro market as unprofitable. They shifted their focus to profitable market segments. The result was paydirt. And great products to boot - not necessarily for the niche "pro" segment, but for everyone. Empowering Joe Average is just fine in my book. Benefit the largest segment with the best products you can churn out.
This is how Apple is achieving their biggest impact. Seems like the strategy is working.
It seems Apple just isn't that into you. Losing even more of the "Pro" segment (on top of what they already lost) seems perfectly in line with the costs vs. benefits analysis of a company in Apple's position.
Apple has shifted to the Prosumer segment. Someone is going to lose when these shifts occur. It turns out a shrinking niche segment is getting hit a little harder. Sorry, but colour me uninterested in what happens to that segment. They can switch to other platforms and get their work done with a lot of the same tools, and probably at lower cost. If they have to put up with a ****** OS and poorly-designed hardware in the process, they can complain to Microsoft and their OEMs. Apple doesn't owe you anything because at some point you used a computer line that they at some point cared about. Change happens.
Frankly, speaking as one of these Prosumers, I'm certainly glad they did make the shift. It's given us better tools at better prices, and I can get results faster and easier than I couldn't get with the tools that were available a few years ago.
Ok. So what exactly are you hoping to accomplish? More complaints about Apple's focus isn't really going to get you anywhere, unless you're into living in an echo chamber. I'm not sure what the point of your arguments are, given current market realities (to be fair, as Apple sees them.)
Go tell Tim Cook how to run a multi-billion dollar corporation, part of whose success has included a shift *away* from Pros and a shift *toward* the wider market. No one is saying they can't still make a profit by also catering to Pros to a greater degree, but keep in mind that successful companies in tech today 1) abhor waste, and 2) generally avoid segments that are not part of their main focus, for which it is advantageous to devote maximum resources.
Seems Apple most definitely does see a reason in "not" maintaining "successful professional divisions", especially when these divisions no longer really exist to the degree they once did. The melding of "Pro" and "Prosumer" is happening quite fast. At some point there really won't be a "Pro" segment to even speak of.
Again, I'll point you to the following:
We believe that we need to own and control the primary technologies behind the products we make, and participate only in markets where we can make a significant contribution.
We believe in saying no to thousands of projects so that we can really focus on the few that are truly important and meaningful to us.
--- Tim Cook, 2009
Seems pretty clear. Apple doesn't see the Pro market as one in which they can make a "significant contribution", which means that they'd rather not waste resources on it that could be put to better use improving the experience for the Prosumer segment (which simply feeds into the reality that this segment is encroaching on the Pro end almost daily.) You might not think so, but they do - as in, the people responsible for taking Apple to where they are today, to results which even by the highest standards today are extremely impressive, if not completely unprecedented for a tech company. Does Apple know exactly what they're doing? Seems they do.
Frankly, I'd also be wondering about the continued health and existence of whatever is left of the "Pro" segment. I certainly hope that today's "Pros" have their future security mapped out to their full satisfaction.
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Are you being obtuse? Not only have they made missteps with Final Cut Pro for instance, but they've produced a line of Macs that has become absurdly expensive, mostly to accomodate Steve Jobs' vision of a sealed appliance. They're slowly strangling, through neglect, a market that could be thriving. Those who learn their trades on Macs are usually customers for life.
Duh. People who have spent a large chunk of their entire working lives advocating the purchase of Apple products in their businesses and workplaces, spending their own money on other Apple products... to be faced with the possibility that what they rely in for their livelihood could be pulled? That huge and costly processes in fields such as printing could have their processes disrupted because Apple can't or won't maintain a successful professional division?
And you've got the nerve to come into a thread like this to tell people they shouldn't be pissed while twaddling on about Apple's marketshare in tablets? If there's any clearer indication that 'prosumers' don't understand the needs of professionals, a completely nonsensical marketing term that bestows nothing upon those who like to adopt its moniker, there's nothing clearer than this.
Then do us a favour and get out of this thread. Your stance is utterly beside the point, it's a waste of space.
It's great that you can take a pic with your iPhone and tickle it up with your 'prosumer' toys... meanwhile, some of us need to batch process a few hundred RAW images while rendering a bunch of stuff, using a matte display that's calibrated while storing 2TB of data locally.
Yes, professionals should all just smile and use inferior and/or non-existent products for our fields, sinking the cost of all the Mac software and upgrades they've paid for and be happy that Apple is sitting on a ton of cash while looking into making TVs. Sorry, but you won't find many cheerleaders across a slew of industries backing you up on that one.
Stop, you're making me laugh. You produce nothing that anyone pays for.
I come into a thread discussing the needs of professionals and their relationship with Apple and wanting to have a cathartic discussion in sympathy with like-minded people only to read someone whose idea of participating in this discussion is to tell professionals people unlike you not to worry! Apple is making lots of phones! They're sitting on tons of cash! You can switch if you don't like it! And what's more, to quote you, you've specifically stated that you're uninterested in what happens to the likes of professionals and their needs.
Not only is this incredibly discourteous, it's clearly trolling.
Tell that to Sony. Tell that to Philips. You don't have any idea of how large and important their divisions are in various fields. You seem to be struggling with the idea that your 'prosumer' gear, regardless of field, doesn't cut the mustard for professional uses.
Now you're just making stuff up, hand-waving. Trying to elevate your messing about with mid-market consumer gear to what professionals have to work with. Anyone who states that the iPhone represents some great leap forward in photography isn't even reading the same book, let alone on the same page.
Please, do me and others in this thread, a favour; have some bloody respect and stick to topics you have a knowledge and interest in, instead of obnoxiously crapping all over those whose livelihoods and professional histories depend on Apple continuing to make the equipment people have relied on for decades.
It's not really that as much as you'd like to suggest. Software that used to run on closed systems in the 1980s and early 90s has run on generic hardware and mid ranged systems for many years. Basically generic PCs replaced dedicated hardware in single user systems long ago. Your pro vs prosumer thing is something that's been argued continually for decades at this point. In terms of Apple, they're all about phones and tablets, because they're a current growth bubble. The technology is new enough to sell these things on a very short replacement cycle.
Nothing has been optimized toward a "prosumer" market other than the price tags. The thunderbolt display isn't really appropriate for color critical workflows. The imac has to go into the shop just to swap a bad hard drive (and the display is roughly the same as the TB display). The macbook pros lost their express slot quite some time ago for a useless replacement part. If you look at their fuzzy marketing, they're aiming at teenagers who want a computer that feels cool. The Air, iphone, and ipad fit into this quite well. If the mac pro goes away, they'll look at the imac next unless it can be integrated into home entertainment or something of that sort. Apple doesn't care about you any more than they care about previous mac pro purchasers.
As for the Lion vs. Windows 7 thing, they're both equally irritating in terms of quirks. Lion has less malware, but beyond that, they're not much different in terms of usability.
I'm not going to suggest that you're wrong, but Windows isn't anywhere near as painful as it was even a few years ago. I've been testing it for a year or so now, and some companies do have options for cross OS upgrades if you ask. The computer market is pretty cluttered at the moment. Not as many people need to replace a computer every two years or less. They can just sit on the old machine without being affected much. Apple basically turned the computer into a fashion accessory. They encourage you to buy the new one not so much because you need the extra speed, but more via look how cool it is. You can convince someone to replace that aging macbook pro with an air of comparable speed whether you move it around or not just because it looks cool. Their commercials and other marketing have been set up in this way for a long time. Arguing specs and power over the previous generation has been pushed further and further back.
Anyway I'd care way less about this stuff if there was an alternative to Apple that still ran OSX. The lack of one is what creates issues when Apple awkwardly backs away from certain things that they've produced. It's more of a problem for the FCP guys because Apple was also responsible for their software development (*sigh* just like what happened to Shake).
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And that is a key distinction between a "prosumer" and a "pro". The "prosumer" can build a Hackintosh with little risk, while the pro depends on that machine for their livelihood and needs it all to be license compliant and supported. Sigh.
I bought 2 Mac Pros as engineering workstations in 2009. Unlike the cheaper Dell workstations these were among the few machines that supported the 32GB RAM I needed for particular applications. Today I could actually do that in an iMac.
I wish Apple still had their eye on this market segment, but the sheer success of iOS makes that very hard to do. (losing "Computer" from the name says a lot).
Maybe they should go the Claris/FileMaker route... Spin out the pro hardware and software to a wholly owned subsidiary that can focus on this market, but that is only if Tim Cook and the board see this as a viable market. Sigh.
B
I'm sorry but *LTD* will think your opinion is anecdotal. I wonder if anyone's opinion is worth any salt other than a pro-apple one in *LTD*'s mind.