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What's the realistic scenario where 99% of web is Chromium and most developers decide to design to support many non-chromium engines?
Yes companies do a risk calculation and many conclude that supporting one browser long term is worth the risk in losing customers who refuse to use a certain browser.
iOS allowing Chromium would just mean Fortune 500 companies will design for Chromium
I find it deeply flawed that you keep claiming that these things would with the absolute certainty as you are doing. You don't have a crystal ball or time machine to know if it would be like that or not.

Your experience in a team (or more than one) within a single Fortune 500 company does not necessarily extrapolate to the entire world the way you are saying.
Not all teams within a company make similar decisions, let alone all Fortune 500 companies making the same decisions.
Additionally, I'm pretty sure all websites made by Fortune 500 companies added up are an insignificant percentage of all websites in the world.
I'm pretty sure many front-end developers believe in supporting multiple engines and will keep doing so.
Which is to say that I truly believe that you are massively extrapolating, in my opinion.


I don't understand what you're asking. I'm literally responding to your questions. Larger marketshare means more likely companies will just focus on the biggest one.
I'm asking: let's imagine you're actually right about your hypothetical scenario where Chromium's market share grows to 99%, and that everyone starts developing for that engine.
As long as no company played unfairly by following anti-competition practices and it was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers and the engines the website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support, why is it a problem to live in a world like that?
 
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I find it deeply flawed that you keep claiming that these things would with the absolute certainty as you are doing.

I find it deeply flawed that you are suggesting companies spend more money on very little returns. In what world does it make sense to pay extra $120k and slowing down dev pace for the 1% user base that may return at best $50k?

Which is to say that I truly believe that you are massively extrapolating, in my opinion.

Please give an example where many for profit companies spend more money to add support that yields, at best, break-even returns (and no other benefits).

I'm asking: let's imagine you're actually right about your hypothetical scenario where Chromium's market share grows to 99%, and that everyone starts developing for that engine.
As long as no company played unfairly by following anti-competition practices and it was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers and the engines the website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support, why is it a problem to live in a world like that?

We're discussing healthy competition. Your question doesn't touch on increasing competition. You're essentially asking "well why not let Google completely win the browser war for all operating systems? It's what the user chose." which is a completely different discussion.
 
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I'm pretty sure many front-end developers believe in supporting multiple engines and will keep doing so. Which is to say that I truly believe that you are massively extrapolating, in my opinion.

You could make that argument, and -- speaking as a full stack software engineer with significant experience in front end development -- I would agree with you to a limited extent. The problem is that front-end devs don't get the final say; we are still responsible to a management chain and to bean counters, who don't always see things the same way that we do. If my manager comes to me and tells me to stop wasting time and money supporting old versions of Netscape Navigator and Internet Explorer, because hardly anyone uses those relics anymore... well, I stop.

What? Did you seriously think that I would risk my job over a lesser used web browser? I mean... I'm principled, but I have my limits.

Besides, the inconvenient reality is: supporting fewer target environments really does make my job easier.

I'm asking: let's imagine you're actually right about your hypothetical scenario where Chromium's market share grows to 99%, and that everyone starts developing for that engine.

This isn't hypothetical; it's statistical. Outside of intentional measures to prevent it, history repeats itself over and over. Web dev or not, I'm sure we all remember a time, not so long ago, when most websites had banners that said "Best viewed in Internet Explorer" or some such thing. IE was never the best browser... it was simply the one that was installed everywhere.

As long as no company played unfairly by following anti-competition practices and it was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers and the engines the website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support, why is it a problem to live in a world like that?

Because it still means living with a monopoly, regardless of how you get there. Monopolies (and sometimes, "not quite monopolies" with made up names like "gatekeepers") usually operate under a different set of rules from everyone else for a reason: they hold a great deal of power in the market. At one time, that was Microsoft with Internet Explorer -- and every web dev hated developing for it, including me... but we did so, because that was the job. When management directs you to use a feature that only exists in one browser, personal preferences sometimes have to be thrown out the window.

Actual monopolies present a unique set of problems, and time and time again, governments have concluded that the best way to avoid having to combat those problems is to prevent the monopoly from coming into existence in the first place.
 
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As long as no company played unfairly by following anti-competition practices and it was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers and the engines the website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support, why is it a problem to live in a world like that?
Once a company achieves near-monopoly status, it decides what "played unfairly" means, and, human nature being what it is, the result is abuse. Happens every single time.

"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." -- James Madison
 
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Once a company achieves near-monopoly status, it decides what "played unfairly" means, and, human nature being what it is, the result is abuse. Happens every single time.
Apple has a monopoly in its own products. It has not been deemed to be an illegal monopoly. Thereforw it has complete say in how its products and services work.
"If men were angels, no government would be necessary." -- James Madison
How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?
 
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You are distorting my points. I didn't say any of the things that you are saying that I did, like the 2 quotes below.

I find it deeply flawed that you are suggesting companies spend more money on very little returns. In what world does it make sense to pay extra $120k and slowing down dev pace for the 1% user base that may return at best $50k?
You are too focused on development teams from Fortune 500 companies and high figures.
There are millions of other companies and people over the world developing websites. I have said this before.
But even so, you are also not proving the contrary: that people and teams making websites will not design them with compatibility with more than one engine.
Because whether or not it makes sense, it's highly subjective because it depends on many variables.

We're discussing healthy competition. Your question doesn't touch on increasing competition. You're essentially asking "well why not let Google completely win the browser war for all operating systems? It's what the user chose." which is a completely different discussion.
No, I didn't say that.

Just because a company, a product or a service has a large market share, that does not mean automatically that there is an illegally monopoly that needs to be fought. A large share is only a warning sign if the company stifles competition and harms consumers.
Competition authorities, like the UK Competition and Markets Authority (CMA) and the European Commission, assess whether a firm is dominant and whether that power is abused, and they investigate things like:
  • Market share
  • Barriers to entry: High market share is not fought if a market is "contestable". If new competitors can easily enter and challenge the dominant firm, the threat keeps the market fair.
  • Abuse of Power: Being large is legal; abusing dominance is not. Authorities take action if a firm uses its size to engage in anti-competitive practices like predatory pricing, exclusivity agreements, or buying up potential rivals to prevent market entry.
And a key indicator of fair competition includes level playing field: multiple independent competitors operate without systemic barriers preventing new entrants from joining the market.

Are you aware of any of the above being the reason why Chromium has such a large market share? Because if you do, enlighten me, please. I've asked you before, twice, to which you didn't answer.

But what we know for sure, and it has been ruled in multiple jurisdictions, is that Apple has adopted anti-competitive practices for the mobile browser market, such as creating barriers to entry.
After they've been told to end those practices and comply, they "complied" maliciously by creating more barriers, such as other browsers having to use the very buggy BrowserEngineKit (while Safari does not) and having to publish as separate apps, losing their customer base and reviews.

And yet, you want to fight Chromium's (not Chrome) market share - which even though it's big, it's not an illegal monopoly - by defending Apple's clearly anti-competitive practices!

If you do not acknowledge this, I don't know what else to say.
 
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You are distorting my points. I didn't say any of the things that you are saying that I did, like the 2 quotes below.


You are too focused on development teams from Fortune 500 companies and high figures.
There are millions of other companies and people over the world developing websites. I have said this before.
But even so, you are also not proving the contrary: that people and teams making websites will not design them with compatibility with more than one engine.
Because whether or not it makes sense, it's highly subjective because it depends on many variables.


It's a basic fact supporting more engine requires more work. More work requires more engineering hours which costs money. If the returns for supporting additional rendering engines yields more potential revenue that pays for that support, it's likely to be implemented. If not, it generally won't be.

You're simply arguing that teams would support more rendering engines out of the goodness of their hearts. This makes very little sense to me.

No, I didn't say that.

Yes. Yes you did.

Your DIRECT quotes:
"assume Chromium's market share grows to 99%"
"was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers"
"website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support"
"why is it a problem to live in a world like that?"

Summary:
"Why is it a problem if 99% of users and developers choose one rendering engine?"

You aren't asking about "increasing competition" but rather you're asking why is it a problem if most people choose 1 rendering engine.

If you're saying that's not what you said, then you're just rewriting history at this point.
 
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Yes. Yes you did.

Your DIRECT quotes:
"assume Chromium's market share grows to 99%"
"was all a result of the users having chosen Chromium browsers"
"website developers have chosen to focus their websites on Chromium support"
"why is it a problem to live in a world like that?"

Summary:
"Why is it a problem if 99% of users and developers choose one rendering engine?"

You aren't asking about "increasing competition" but rather you're asking why is it a problem if most people choose 1 rendering engine.

If you're saying that's not what you said, then you're just rewriting history at this point.
I reiterate that what I have been defending all along is increasing competition, without barriers to entry, so that people can make their own choices. I've written that multiple times.

And I have written that I don't agree with the fear mongering I get from your comments that if other engines are allowed on iOS & iPadOS, the only possible scenario is that Chromium will increase its market share and everyone making websites will stop supporting on other engines.

That part where you took my quotes from was a question about your hypothetical scenario, and that was very clear.
It was: "OK, let's imagine you are right and what you are saying actually happens. Why is that a problem? Go deeper and help me understand the problems with that, and perhaps I will change my view."

Your response to that:
You're essentially asking "well why not let Google completely win the browser war for all operating systems? It's what the user chose."
That is, it implies again that I am defending that Google should win. I am not.
I repeat: it was a question to understand the problems about that hypothetical and supposedly terrible scenario.
It would be helpful to hear an answer to the question.

You aren't asking about "increasing competition" but rather you're asking why is it a problem if most people choose 1 rendering engine.
I have written multiple comments in this thread, and what you wrote there only applies to what I was described above about my question on the hypothetical scenario.

What I have been defending all along this thread is letting browsers run on all devices without Apple's illegal barriers to entry, and letting people choose.

Whatever illegal, unfair or just undesirable competition you think that might exist in Chromium's favour, how is it justifiable to defend Apple's anti-competitive practices with the justification that it helps reducing Chromium's market share?
If Chromium is being anti-competitive, that matter is supposed to be addressed by regulators.
 
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Curiously, Apple has nothing like a monopoly in the EU or even market dominance as usually defined in either the cell phone or the laptop/desktop computer markets. Apple is the biggest player in tablets, with over 50%; I'm not sure how significant that is.

I think the concern with Chrome is precisely its tie to Google, the dominant search engine. If Chrome were an independent company, I doubt if the concern would be nearly as great. Funny thing is, despite the crucial importance they have, nobody seems to want to spend their own money on browsers for some reason, even if they spend thousands of (dollars, euros, etc) on cell phones and laptops and even tablet computers. People pay tons to Microsoft for its Excel ecosystem. But, browsers are supposed to be free? Perhaps some economists out there can explain it.
 
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I reiterate that what I have been defending all along is increasing competition, without barriers to entry, so that people can make their own choices. I've written that multiple times.

Ok? I'm responding to the specific question you presented: "why is it a problem to live in a world like that?". You can write you love Apple and Google and competition and all that. That doesn't change the fact that you asked "why is it a problem to live in a world where 99% of users and developers choose 1 browser rendering engine."

And I have written that I don't agree with the fear mongering I get from your comments that if other engines are allowed on iOS & iPadOS, the only possible scenario is that Chromium will increase its market share and everyone making websites will stop supporting on other engines.

That part where you took my quotes from was a question about your hypothetical scenario, and that was very clear.
It was: "OK, let's imagine you are right and what you are saying actually happens. Why is that a problem?

You are wondering why 99% adoption of 1 browser engine is a problem for increasing competition?

For obvious reasons. If there are no developers developing for other browsing engines, why would users download other browsers. And if no other users download other browsers, why would developers develop for other browsing engines? There's the cold start problem which makes it incredibly difficult for new browsers to compete.

I'm not sure how clearer it can be. If you can't understand that, then there's nothing more I can do for you.
 
Wild how some people forget the context of the discussion and immediately accuse me of being pro-third party engines on iOS. I never said such thing.

And accusing me of sucking up to Apple for not allowing choice when you had the choice of buying an Android or iOS device in the first place.
 
What's the business case?

Microsoft doesn't even develop their own engine any more because it isn't really worth it.

Same as on desktop: they can shove AI down our throats, and we still get semi-decent browsers as alternatives.


Apple is really gatekeeping this. I could have a fork of Firefox that protects my privacy and security, with many useful open-source extensions. Instead, I’m stuck with a ******* WebKit browser without proper extensions, and content blockers are almost useless.


Heck, I would even donate to such a project. We are so damn limited when it comes to browser options that it just isn’t fair.


To be honest, if they keep pushing all this verification ****, I might switch to GrapheneOS and Linux.

owa-applebrowserban-03.jpg
 
Same as on desktop: they can shove AI down our throats, and we still get semi-decent browsers as alternatives.

But they can do that with WebKit.

They already have Edge on iOS; the question is why a company that explicitly gave up on developing their engine would put that kind of effort in.

 
And accusing me of sucking up to Apple for not allowing choice when you had the choice of buying an Android or iOS device in the first place.
How can this be an argument in this debate, as if there aren't plenty of other reasons to buy an iPhone besides this specific topic?
Since when an iPhone with 3rd party browser engines allowed is the same as an Android phone?!

Do you actually believe what you wrote there?
 
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How can this be an argument in this debate, as if there aren't plenty of other reasons to buy an iPhone besides this specific topic?
Since when an iPhone with 3rd party browser engines allowed is the same as an Android phone?!

Do you actually believe what you wrote there?

Oh so I should be able to buy a Playstation that plays Steam games? That same console should run any browser engine I like. And I should be able to pay Netflix but also get Paramount+ shows on there? And be able to run Windows 11 on my Samsung Smart TV as well as my electric car screen?

Do you actually believe what you wrote there?
 
Oh so I should be able to buy a Playstation that plays Steam games? That same console should run any browser engine I like. And I should be able to pay Netflix but also get Paramount+ shows on there? And be able to run Windows 11 on my Samsung Smart TV as well as my electric car screen?

Do you actually believe what you wrote there?
But I did not write any of that, did I?
I see that you want to avoid answering what I asked, but the strawman fallacy is not going to work with me.
 
But I did not write any of that, did I?
I see that you want to avoid answering what I asked, but the strawman fallacy is not going to work with me.

If you're only applying these principles to one device/platform but not the other, then clearly you're not arguing objectively but rather just being biased on the devices you use.
 
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If you're only applying these principles to one device/platform but not the other, then clearly you're not arguing objectively but rather just being biased on the devices you use.
I have not even expressed my opinions about those other devices and platforms.
But even if I have different views about those, how on Earth is that even relevant to this discussion? Those are for entertainment, which is very different from browsers.

This conversation is about Apple and browsers, and you're conveniently changing the topic to dodge questions and win the discussion.
 
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Wild how some people forget the context of the discussion and immediately accuse me of being pro-third party engines on iOS. I never said such thing.

And accusing me of sucking up to Apple for not allowing choice when you had the choice of buying an Android or iOS device in the first place.
Webkit allows Apple to not make safari better and keep their meager 7-10% market share of the browser market.
 
I have not even expressed my opinions about those other devices and platforms.


This conversation is about Apple and browsers,


That's right. "I don't want to talk about how others are treated, I just want to treat Apple one way". You're specifically targeting Apple. It's not about the principle of browser engine choice, it's about treating Apple the way you want it.

Clearly you have something against Apple, but totally are fine when everyone else does the same exact thing Apple is doing so, I think it's clear where you're headed with this.

I'm out. Have a good day.
 
But they can do that with WebKit.

They already have Edge on iOS; the question is why a company that explicitly gave up on developing their engine would put that kind of effort in.
Webkit sucks, everyone knows this and that's why Apple keeps it locked down on iOS devices.

What's the last innovative feature Safari has made? They put out Safari technology previews all the time which means nothing to the average consumer.
 
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