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ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
927
1,125
And some of the YouTubers had no idea SSD was slower than RAM.
Yep. Don't want to mention names, but I think I know who you're talking about too.

Many of them quite simply do not understand how these things work. I don't blame the average consumer for that, Apple tends to keep technical explanations to a minimum with this stuff. But for folks doing reviews on channels with millions of views, I'm surprised nobody has pulled them aside and been like "by the way, RAM access latency is about ~300 CPU cycles. SSD access latency is closer to 300,000."
 

mr_roboto

Suspended
Sep 30, 2020
826
1,782
M2 base SSD is absolutely slower than M1 base SSD. Whether that matters in any world or not can be debated. However, a benchmark was established by an amazing speed bar set by Apple in M1 and then HALVED in M2. There was no force on Apple to halve the speed. There was no supply chain issue or crisis or <other excuse>. It very likely comes down to the M2 choice made those Macs more profitable to Apple than sticking with the same approach used in M1 (one part instead of two parts).
There was a supply chain issue and it led to Apple making a business decision that wasn't in our favor.

The flash memory industry is always moving forward, upgrading fab plants to manufacture ever more dense memory. Older generation parts don't keep getting manufactured forever, they get discontinued.

(Or severely capacity constrained, because the flash manufacturer moves most of their production line to the new thing while keeping a trickle of the old thing going for customers who are continuing to manufacture an old design and don't care that the price might go up a lot. But since Apple refreshes their designs quite regularly, they just move to the new high volume / low cost flash components.)

So, if Apple wanted to keep the base model M2 machines at the same SSD capacity as M1s, they had to do it with half the number of chips, because the baseline smallest flash chip got bigger. Since that also halves the sequential throughput, that's what you get.

Could Apple have chosen to keep the chip count at each SSD upgrade tier constant, doubling capacity relative to the M1 generation's SSDs? Yeah. Did they want to? Obviously not.

Do people freak out too much about HALF SPEED OMG!!!! ? Absolutely yes. The most important performance number on a SSD isn't always sequential throughput. For most users, there are sharply diminishing returns as that number goes up - once you have enough, you're kinda good. The other key benchmark of a SSD - the one few reviews pay attention to, especially the ones hyperventilating about slow M2 SSDs - is latency, the time delay from issuing a read or write request to the SSD completing it. Latency is what most users experience in daily use; it has a very direct impact on how fast the computer feels.

The reason this SSD speed issue is overblown (IMO, anyways) is that halving the chip count doesn't change average latency nearly as much as it hits throughput. But it's very easy to get youtube clicks if you can shout real loud about OMG IT'S HALF THE SPEED even though that's incomplete and misleading information.

If you ask me, the more important conversation to be having about Apple's SSDs is that Apple overcharges so badly for capacity. I can accept them being a bit more expensive, but if you want a 2TB or 4TB SSD in a Mac you'll be paying more than 4x the price of a 2TB or 4TB NVMe. Or living with a klunky external that's not as good as an internal, especially if you're buying a portable Mac.
 

semiraw

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Aug 8, 2023
27
3
Well said. There has also been a bit of an epidemic of youtubers recommending people to upgrade to the 512GB SSDs on the base M2 systems (or 1TB on the 14"/16") specifically for better swap performance. This has been a bit misleading for a lot of consumers who aren't as well versed on how these things work, as the better choice is almost always to upgrade RAM instead if the primary reason you are upgrading is for better swap performance.
And some of the YouTubers had no idea SSD was slower than RAM.
Thanks for your comments.

Do you recommend 1TB+32GB for my projects?
 

herbert7265

macrumors regular
Jun 2, 2023
104
80
Mexico
Do you recommend 1TB+32GB for my projects?
Question: Which projects? Maybe I miss(ed) something, but I do not see a description for what you want to use your computer. :cool:

Giving a recommendation without knowing the requirements is a little difficult…! ;)

Herbert
 

ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
927
1,125
Thanks for your comments.

Do you recommend 1TB+32GB for my projects?
32GB is a great upgrade if you have heavier workloads that could benefit from it (things like advanced video editing or very heavy multitasking if you have workloads that could push the system to this extent). This will definitely make a MUCH bigger difference for your overall performance than the SSD upgrades will if you have the kinds of workloads that can benefit from the RAM.

As far as SSD upgrades, honestly I'd say it just depends on whether you need the storage space. Personally, I bought the 1TB upgrade for mine because I wanted the storage, but I definitely would not have upgraded if I didn't need the extra space. I don't think the speed difference is really enough to warrant going out of your way just to upgrade for the speed, the 512GB ones are definitely not slow. But if you need the extra storage anyway, you might as well.
 

TechnoMonk

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2022
2,429
3,754
Thanks for your comments.

Do you recommend 1TB+32GB for my projects?
I think that is a pretty good config. Will give enough space for rendering 4K videos if you can’t access external storage when you are traveling. I don’t recommend buying 1 TB for SSD speed if you don’t need it. I rather add more RAM, if you worry about swap.
 
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RokinAmerica

macrumors regular
Jul 18, 2022
206
384
I can't tell you how many times after a long, grueling day of work, I run my benchmark and realize how embarrassed I am compared to other online benchmarkers.

In fact, if it were not for my constant worry about benchmarks, I would be ignorant of how slow my SSD is.
🤣

Forgot, I am a windows guy, just bought my first Mac since late 90's (Air M2). So not a fanboi, but I do know SSDs and as long as I have 16GB ram, I am fine with the 256.
 

AF_APPLETALK

macrumors 6502a
Nov 12, 2020
655
911
How is it Hand wavy attitude? Apple is delivering the specs they committed. I wouldn’t buy Apple if it was slow. I have M1 Max MBP, and M2 MBA. Both are great laptops for their purpose and I don’t feel like M2 is slow. If I was in the market, I would buy M2 max over M1 Max.
Go look at the tech specs page for MacBook Pros and tell me where it’s listed/committed that they’ll use slower SSDs in lower space configurations. It isn’t listed because it makes them look bad.

If it was listed, you’d have an argument. However because it’s being hidden from the consumer…

Even so, fact still remains that even the 256 GB drives in M1 MacBook Airs were more performant than the drives in the M2 MacBooks that replaced them. Apple CAN do better, they CAN offer consistent performance across the lineup because they HAVE in very recent history. They just don’t want to. Can’t rewrite that history.

Other way around, I’d be curious if Apple was offering higher speed SSDs in the lower configs, if you think that would be a problem because it was already ”fast enough.”

We need to hold their feet to the fire, resting on their laurels and making confusing, substandard products is how they almost went under in the 90s.
 
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ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
927
1,125
Go look at the tech specs page for MacBook Pros and tell me where it’s listed/committed that they’ll use slower SSDs in lower space configurations. It isn’t listed because it makes them look bad.

If it was listed, you’d have an argument. However because it’s being hidden from the consumer…
To be fair, this is fairly industry standard. Quite a lot of SSDs and flash devices are much faster in their higher tier configurations (including some fairly high end devices).

This is just one of those things that is pretty normal in the flash industry. When speed specifications are advertised as a marketing point, there is usually a disclaimer saying it'll be slower for the lower tier configurations. In Apple's case, they aren't advertising benchmarks for their SSDs on their product pages, so I wouldn't expect them to really put a disclaimer on there.

My only complaint is that they didn't go ahead and upgrade the base configs to 512GB if there was really no way to match the previous performance on last gen models, but I think that the whole issue is massively overblown (to a large extent as a result of youtubers making it out to be some kind of a scandalous thing when it's actually fairly industry standard across vendors. The larger SSD models usually do perform better in benchmarks, that's not unique to Apple.)
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
9,220
12,252
Does anyone have numbers to provide? It seems a simple question to answer…

@NikkoTuason’s numbers I think are only for M2 and I’m not sure what capacity…
 

Malus120

macrumors 6502a
Jun 28, 2002
683
1,419
Go look at the tech specs page for MacBook Pros and tell me where it’s listed/committed that they’ll use slower SSDs in lower space configurations. I don't understand this hand-wavy attitude. People are entitled to seek out the best specs. Apple is being opaque. Apple CAN do better, they CAN offer consistent performance across the lineup because they HAVE in very recent history. They just don’t want to. We need to hold their feet to the fire, resting on their laurels and making confusing, substandard products is how they almost went under in the 90s.
I don't think anyone is purposefully being "hand-wavy" about this. The reduction in base SSD speed across the M2 lineup vs their M1 predecessors is a sh(itty) move that Apple deserves to be called out on and is particularly egregious when paired with a paltry 8GB of ram as it is in the base MBA.
I think we'd all like to see Apple be more transparent and stop nickel and diming customers.

That said, this thread is not the place to hash out this argument. It is about someone asking if the base 14" MacBook Pro (M2 Pro/16/512) will be adequate for their needs or not, and for all intents and purposes it should be.
Unlike with the MBA, I haven't seen anyone highlight a use case that is aversely impacted by the reduction in storage speed on a base 14/16 MBP and while I'm sure they exist, they are not something someone who is buying the base MBP with 512GB of storage is likely to run into.

I appreciate your passion, but let's keep this thread on topic :)
 

Malus120

macrumors 6502a
Jun 28, 2002
683
1,419
Does anyone have numbers to provide? It seems a simple question to answer…

@NikkoTuason’s numbers I think are only for M2 and I’m not sure what capacity…
Here you go.

For reference my M1 Max with 512GB SSD performs like an M2 Pro/Max with a 1TB SSD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/10kr920
 

Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
9,220
12,252
Here you go.

For reference my M1 Max with 512GB SSD performs like an M2 Pro/Max with a 1TB SSD.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mac/comments/10kr920
There we go, question answered.

The high-level Blackmagic Disk Speed Test shows the 512GB version of the M1 Pro MacBook Pro with a 4,900 MB/s read speed and 3,951 MB/s write speed, while the M2 Pro version shows a 2,973 MB/s read speed and 3,154.5 MB/s write speed. That's a drop of 40 percent for read speeds and 20 percent for write speeds.​
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2022
2,429
3,754
There we go, question answered.

The high-level Blackmagic Disk Speed Test shows the 512GB version of the M1 Pro MacBook Pro with a 4,900 MB/s read speed and 3,951 MB/s write speed, while the M2 Pro version shows a 2,973 MB/s read speed and 3,154.5 MB/s write speed. That's a drop of 40 percent for read speeds and 20 percent for write speeds.​
Here is another one from your favorite YouTuber, quoted by arstechnica.
 
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Analog Kid

macrumors G3
Mar 4, 2003
9,220
12,252
Here is another one from your favorite YouTuber, quoted by arstechnica.

I miss John Siracusa... He'd never have relied on hacks to run his benchmarks for him... We'd have gotten a 10 page analysis of the results, how the benchmarks were constructed, potential coding flaws visible in a hex editor, and more...
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2022
2,429
3,754
I miss John Siracusa... He'd never have relied on hacks to run his benchmarks for him... We'd have gotten a 10 page analysis of the results, how the benchmarks were constructed, potential coding flaws visible in a hex editor, and more...
Yep. He used to churn out 30-40 K word reviews and articles. Its very hard to take the benchmarks at face value. I just evaluate every purchase for couple of weeks now.
 
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TechnoMonk

macrumors 68020
Oct 15, 2022
2,429
3,754
Go look at the tech specs page for MacBook Pros and tell me where it’s listed/committed that they’ll use slower SSDs in lower space configurations. It isn’t listed because it makes them look bad.

If it was listed, you’d have an argument. However because it’s being hidden from the consumer…

Even so, fact still remains that even the 256 GB drives in M1 MacBook Airs were more performant than the drives in the M2 MacBooks that replaced them. Apple CAN do better, they CAN offer consistent performance across the lineup because they HAVE in very recent history. They just don’t want to. Can’t rewrite that history.

Other way around, I’d be curious if Apple was offering higher speed SSDs in the lower configs, if you think that would be a problem because it was already ”fast enough.”

We need to hold their feet to the fire, resting on their laurels and making confusing, substandard products is how they almost went under in the 90s.
I don't make emotional, philosophical, or passionate purchases. Since you brought up M1 MBA, the minimum storage Apple sold was 128 GB M1 MBA, the 256 GB had two chips, and 512 GB had 4 chips in M1 Pro or Max models. The NAND chips now come in 256 GB, the base model moved to 256 GB, and the single chip is slower than 2 chips. Similarly, 512 GB in M2 uses two chips, not 4.

This is the same problem, Apple or any other manufacturer is going to run into when the single chip memory bumps to 512 GB, which makes a 1 TB previous model (using 4X256) faster than a 2X 512 chip model.

Talking about Apple after Steve Jobs took over, I am old enough to remember the Speed dumping fiasco of G4/G3 Power Macs.
 

gpat

macrumors 68000
Mar 1, 2011
1,909
5,233
Italy
I have searched and there is no longer stock of M1 Pro.

You would have to look at refurbished. And the price difference is not significant.

In the EU right now, I can save about 300€ or 500€ if I choose the older chip for respectively the MBP 14" or 16".
All being considered for their base 512GB models. So YMMV.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,409
19,489
Unfortunately, in M2, Apple decided to make a different choice for base SSD that resulted in objective measures of HALF the speed of M1. If this was only rumored, even the most passionate Apple fans would argue "no way", "Apple would not cut any speed of anything custom Apple in half" and so on. But it is not a rumor. Apple did it. As such, Apple fans show up to defend any topic that requires assigning fault to Apple.

Basically: if Apple decides something, it is the one and only best answer for everyone... even if that something can be objectively measured and is an absolute step back... as this decision was. You would think that consumers could all remember that they are consumers (first) but that's not how fans work. Fans put the corp. above even their own self interests. If Apple wanted to HALVE speeds again in M3, the same types would argue the same supporting points. Why? Because Apple cannot be wrong.

I generally like your post but in this particular point you might be overdoing it. This is not about justifying Apple's decisions at all costs, but about trying to understand the wider context and the reasons that might have led to them. And in this case there are very clear reasons, which has to do with the supply chain. Apple was using two smaller NAND chips, which gave them faster speeds. These chips were not produced anymore in sufficient quantities, so they switched to a single NAND chip which is obviously slower. This is all explained much better than I could in this post: #27
 

semiraw

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Aug 8, 2023
27
3
Question: Which projects? Maybe I miss(ed) something, but I do not see a description for what you want to use your computer. :cool:

Giving a recommendation without knowing the requirements is a little difficult…! ;)

Herbert
I do projects (they aren't very big, they don't require a lot of graphic power) in 3D video game modeling and audiovisual communication (video editing).
Sometimes I also mix the videos with 3D scenes.

Until now with an iMac i7 from 2017 I have done projects. But I need a little more power. After so many years...
 

semiraw

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Aug 8, 2023
27
3
I can't tell you how many times after a long, grueling day of work, I run my benchmark and realize how embarrassed I am compared to other online benchmarkers.

In fact, if it were not for my constant worry about benchmarks, I would be ignorant of how slow my SSD is.
🤣

Forgot, I am a windows guy, just bought my first Mac since late 90's (Air M2). So not a fanboi, but I do know SSDs and as long as I have 16GB ram, I am fine with the 256.
Thanks for your answer.

Is it true that Macbook Air M2 start to heat up after 30 minutes of continuous work (without stopping work)?
The difference from a Macbook Pro M2 13" I was told is that they have fans and you notice the fan shortage after 30 minutes. Do you think it is true?
 

mr_roboto

Suspended
Sep 30, 2020
826
1,782
Is it true that Macbook Air M2 start to heat up after 30 minutes of continuous work (without stopping work)?
The difference from a Macbook Pro M2 13" I was told is that they have fans and you notice the fan shortage after 30 minutes. Do you think it is true?
All M1 and M2 MacBooks (Air and Pro alike) start to heat up as soon as the machine begins to do work. There are two options these computers use to prevent themselves from overheating: Spin up the fans (if present), and if that doesn't do enough, reduce clock speeds.

Under extremely high load conditions (all processor cores 100% loaded), a MacBook Air's M1 or M2 SoC hits temps which force it to begin reducing clock speeds in as little as 30 seconds, not 30 minutes. Generally speaking, they should stabilize somewhere around 60% to 70% of full speed if kept under 100% load forever.

The question is, are you going to do anything which puts such a high load on the machine for even as much as 30 seconds? Few people do, which is why MacBook Airs are surprisingly capable. If you only need full performance in short bursts, they'll do that all day long.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
I generally like your post but in this particular point you might be overdoing it. This is not about justifying Apple's decisions at all costs, but about trying to understand the wider context and the reasons that might have led to them. And in this case there are very clear reasons, which has to do with the supply chain. Apple was using two smaller NAND chips, which gave them faster speeds. These chips were not produced anymore in sufficient quantities, so they switched to a single NAND chip which is obviously slower. This is all explained much better than I could in this post: #27

Thanks. As in all decisions that can frustrate us consumers, part of the magic of fans is the rationalizations in defense of them. Classics like "it's not a notch, it's more screen R.E. to the left and right" seem to illustrate this well. I'm quite sure it WAS a notch. It's hard to miss the notch. I'm quite sure it is there. But that not-a-notch created only by subtraction of bezel to the left & right was a dazzler! ;)

Apple can make ANY decisions it wants and the fans will rationalize it (passionate support for Butterfly keyboards even when the real issues began to pile up, why 1TB RAM in iDevices was "plenty" while Apple clung to that too long, why a 1080p AppleTV made no sense while Apple clung to 720p and then why a 4K AppleTV made no sense while Apple clung to 1080p (overwhelmingly the very same reasons by the way, currently waiting to be resurrected again as the call for an 8K AppleTV begins to build), and on and on).

I recall iPad 1s launch with no front-facing camera and that was passionately rationalized against anyone saying it should have had one... until iPad 2 rolled out with one and then that was spun as a primary reason to upgrade. I recall 2 iPad models launching in a single event: one with retina and one without. The former's retina was THE gushingly, positive reason to upgrade while the latter "did not need" retina... until the next year when it got retina too and then retina was the reason to upgrade.

I recall massive ridicule of phablet-sized phones while Apple clung to 3.5" and then 4" as "perfection"... until Apple went phablet and now almost all ridicule small screen phone wishes. NFC (pay by phone) was dumb, stupid, nobody needed... until Apple Pay at which point people wanted to boycott any stores that wouldn't let them pay with Apple Pay.

I could write a hundred examples here but hopefully the point is somewhat made. Apple and/or fans will always come up with what can seem like plausible reasons for such decisions and, when some seem to stick, they will get reposted and reposted until they gain some steam in being believed, accepted, etc. Soon people are just offering them up as if they are fact.

To buy the "Apple had to go single chip SSD because of supply chain" logic means that mighty Apple was "forced" into the half-speed choice because the flash memory industry gets to decide what they want to make and Apple has to shop & buy only whatever that industry chooses to offer... that Apple has no say and these supply chain players are actually the ones that heavily influence key features of Apple tech.

Meanwhile, chips with Ms and As and Ts, etc branded on them, specifically and intricately designed for Apple and only Apple are purchased by Apple... and those chips are made as Apple wants them... to Apple's own specifications. To believe the "supply chain driver" excuse implies that Apple could not do the same with (much less complex) SSD chips... that Apple is at the mercy of whatever the flash memory industry wishes to offer.

Personally, I believe that if Apple wanted TWO 128GB Flash modules for M2 computers instead of ONE 256GB module, multiple flash manufacturers would have fallen all over themselves trying to get Apple's business... as is the case with TSMC and key competitors like Samsung, etc. for custom Apple chip orders. In fact, since someone was ALREADY able to make the dual 128GB chips for M1, it would have been SIMPLER than new M or A or T chip orders because all it would have taken is to leave an established line in place and keep making them for this huge Apple order.

Nevertheless, if we still wish to believe the supply chain has dominant say in SSD configurations, let's hope the Flash manufacturers decide to only sell 512GB or 1TB modules to Apple so that the 256GB minimum is "forced" larger. And hopefully they can call their RAM-making friends to force 8GB to 16GB or 32GB or whatever each of us would like to see in base specs. I thought such decisions were mighty Apples to make, motivated by Apples money buying whatever it wants. But if the supply chain gets to decide such things, let's hope they "force" Apple to upgrade both for future Macs by simply not making 256GB SSD or 8GB RAM available to Apple anymore. Who knew almost no-name supply-chain players actually get to decide key spec features in our new Macs? ;)

The moral of this story: just because we read something posted 50 or 500 times doesn't mean it is true. Applying a little "think different" against such facts should easily poke some big holes in this particular bit of very popular rationalization. With rare exception, I doubt modern Apple has "no choice" about anything that goes into Apple hardware. The pile of Apple money will buy them anything THEY want in there.
 
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dgdosen

macrumors 68030
Dec 13, 2003
2,790
1,433
Seattle
If NAND vendors stopped making 128GB chips because of... progress, one approach Apple could have taken would be to just use two of the now standard smallest NAND chips as a default, say two 256GB NANDS, for their devices. Those may cost Apple a very similar price - maybe a cost increase in the 'ones of dollars' on a per unit basis. Apple might even be cutting overall costs because they can just use one chip instead of two for 256GB base.

But the 'opportunity cost' or value of 'lost sales' Apple would have seen by doubling the base storage is in the millions (100s of millions?) because of that juicy $200 price increase for an incremental 256GB of NAND, and cascading effects on all other storage price increments.

Apple chose the penny pinching route - and understandably deserves valid criticism for the decision. Apple can easily get back that goodwill by bumping up the base storage (and memory) in their devices. I would argue the goodwill that accrues (in customer loyalty) would be well worth any opportunity cost. I think idling NAND manufacturers would also welcome the decision.

(I also agree, after a certain point - I see no difference in SSD speeds)
 

ArkSingularity

macrumors 6502a
Mar 5, 2022
927
1,125
If NAND vendors stopped making 128GB chips because of... progress, one approach Apple could have taken would be to just use two of the now standard smallest NAND chips as a default, say two 256GB NANDS, for their devices. Those may cost Apple a very similar price - maybe a cost increase in the 'ones of dollars' on a per unit basis. Apple might even be cutting overall costs because they can just use one chip instead of two for 256GB base.

But the 'opportunity cost' or value of 'lost sales' Apple would have seen by doubling the base storage is in the millions (100s of millions?) because of that juicy $200 price increase for an incremental 256GB of NAND, and cascading effects on all other storage price increments.

Apple chose the penny pinching route - and understandably deserves valid criticism for the decision. Apple can easily get back that goodwill by bumping up the base storage (and memory) in their devices. I would argue the goodwill that accrues (in customer loyalty) would be well worth any opportunity cost. I think idling NAND manufacturers would also welcome the decision.

(I also agree, after a certain point - I see no difference in SSD speeds)
It's more the price that these things are at. 256GB of storage just seems quite small for a $1000+ device in 2023, but I don't necessarily criticize them for having slower SSDs on the base model (it's not very convenient for the consumer, but it is something that is very normal in the flash industry because of how these things work. Larger SSDs usually are faster than their smaller counterparts.)
 
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