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Samsung X5 1TB is about $700. So you are not saving a huge amount. Samsung X5 is a portable drive with limited thermal boundary. It has a strict thermal throttling very apparent during a long sequential writing as reported by AnandTech and others. With people complaining about TB dongle hell, it is much cleaner to get 1 TB internal SSD than getting Samsung X5 or G-Technology mobile Pro SSD.

If you want external TB3 SSD drive for Windows installation, get Akitio Node Lite with NVMe SSD. You won't be hit by aggressive thermal throttling of portable TB3 drives.

I think the value proposition will point more towards people willing to buy a SATA-based SSD for their external performance bulk storage needs. They want better than spinning disk and any half decent SSD (eg Samsung 850 EVO, Crucial MX500) would suffice. Whether or not an external solution like this is a good idea remains to be seen.

I'd assume the internal Apple SSD will not throttle like an external solution because it would be included in the cooling scheme for the Mini.

Therefore, in advance of full reviews of the Mini, I'd suggest that people looking for high performance solution in the first six months would be as well to just select a bigger internal SSD from Apple.
 
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Whether or not an external solution like this is a good idea remains to be seen.
When the HDD died on my 07 imac, I decided to try an external SSD to keep it going. It worked so well, I zip tied the little drive to the leg in back. Got years out of it and I only unplugged it during use, once. So its certainly not as elegant as inside but I think the efficiency of two ssd speeds has its own efficiency. And even 2TB SSD are now affordable, yielding years of capacity for most uses.
 
I'm asking a legit question regarding the reliability and longevity of the new Mini's (soldered/non removable) SSD's? Do we have any data or proof these things give up the ghost 2/3/4/5/6 yrs after we start using them?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic as i've only ever used spindle drives because of my belief possibly unwarranted that SSD's wear out from reads and writes. I have 10 year old USB flash/thumb drives I still use to copy and transfer small files. They still work to this day.

Hasn't Apple been using non-removable SSD's in their MB's/MBP's/MA's? If so have their been widespread reports these SSD's quit working after a few years?

A good friend of mine back in 2010 had purchased a Lenovo ThinkPad and installed back when the technology was still expensive a 250GB SSD in his laptop running Windows 7 then Windows 8/8.1 and he's in the Air Conditioning and Heating business and he would design layouts and use programs that i'm sure do quite a bit of reads and writes. He never said the SSD gave him a lick of problems. In fact he tried to sell me on the benefits of the SSD.

I'm sure the SSD Tech has advanced both in speed, reliability and longevity. Am I wrong to presume this?

I really like the new Mini's and the base model for me would be more than adequate especially coming from a base 2012 Mini but i'm apprehensive after reading about the non-removable SSD's.
I believe Apple use more expensive MLC SSDs for their products (or at least they had been doing, not sure if they've been sacrificed on the altar of profitability?) these have a longer life than TLC ones which are now the industry standard. I did ask the question to anyone who had an original MBA, and nobody has seen an SSD failure yet, 10 years on, and pretty well long past what you might consider a reasonable run for the computer's service life.
 
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Yes the SSD is soldered in, you can see that the images on Apple's site:
https://www.apple.com/v/mac-mini/f/images/overview/storage__dobkcevtjmwm_medium_2x.jpg

Assuming that the SSD in the Mac Mini is comparable to a Samsung 970 PRO NVMe SSD. Current retail prices for 512gb is $199 and for 1tb is $399, while Apple is charging $200 extra and $600 extra for theirs respectively, so there is a healthy margin built in. Unfortunately, you little choice but to pay the cost if you want one of these Minis with decent storage.
 
I am going with the 512 option. That will be enough for internal. For external, I will be using my old Samsung SATA SSD.

USB 3.1 speeds are more than sufficient for SATA R/W speeds. And now when I saw that 3000/2800 R/W NVMe drives do not decrease game loading time by more that about 2 seconds, that was it. Other than gaming what I do, only software development. I can, too live with SATA 3 speeds when it comes to that, but my projects will probably be in internal and games on external drive.
 
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Yes the SSD is soldered in, you can see that the images on Apple's site:
https://www.apple.com/v/mac-mini/f/images/overview/storage__dobkcevtjmwm_medium_2x.jpg

Assuming that the SSD in the Mac Mini is comparable to a Samsung 970 PRO NVMe SSD. Current retail prices for 512gb is $199 and for 1tb is $399, while Apple is charging $200 extra and $600 extra for theirs respectively, so there is a healthy margin built in. Unfortunately, you little choice but to pay the cost if you want one of these Minis with decent storage.
If it is anything less than the drive you mention, then we are being 1000% fleeced. I will never buy one if it is TLC or God forbid, QLC LOL! Personally, I do not even think Apple is that stupid. But I will sure wait until I know!
 
Yes the SSD is soldered in, you can see that the images on Apple's site:
https://www.apple.com/v/mac-mini/f/images/overview/storage__dobkcevtjmwm_medium_2x.jpg

Assuming that the SSD in the Mac Mini is comparable to a Samsung 970 PRO NVMe SSD. Current retail prices for 512gb is $199 and for 1tb is $399, while Apple is charging $200 extra and $600 extra for theirs respectively, so there is a healthy margin built in. Unfortunately, you little choice but to pay the cost if you want one of these Minis with decent storage.

Adding external drives in that class will cost more - look at the Samsung X5. The real downside here is replacing the stick if it breaks but professionals can keep going by buying an X5 or similar/lesser and connect to a Thunderbolt 3 port. Broken RAM can be replaced too in theory. It essentially passes the professional test on Apple's terms in that mission critical work could get finished by adding an external boot drive or replacing memory without needing to go into an Apple Store.

What I'd like to see now is an eGPU box with a some internal drive bays that connect via a second Thunderbolt 3 cable. And I'd hope that the Mini is not constrained for folks who want to beef up their Mini with a VEGA GPU and some external storage.
 
I'm late to the thread, but in addition to having stayed in a Holdiay Inn last night, I've also done work with embedded systems that had direct interfaces to NAND chips.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that the lifespan of a NAND flash chip (in terms of writes) is directly related to the process used to make the NAND chip (size of the cells) and the number of bits per cell stored.

In short - the early SSDs - like the Intel 120GB used 50nm NAND flash and came in 1 and 2-bit per cell varieties. each block on the NAND chip was rated to be re-written 50,000 or even 100,000 times, before statistically you get enough bad cells for the SSD to fail.

More recent NAND chips hold a LOT more data by virtue of much smaller cells - 16nm and 20nm, 3D vertical stacking, and storing more bits per cell (3 or 4). They are also rated for (usually) around 3,000 to 5,000 re-writes. This had allowed SSD prices to come WAAAY down, and why we're not paying $2000 for a 1TB SSD.

The downside is longevity. To some extent, it's been offset by smart algorithms that spread the writes around evenly (wear leveling), and newer filesystems being more optimized for SSD life, but byte-per-byte, you don't get as many writes as you used to.

I skipped a lot about NAND that I could talk about, because the above is the important thing to understand.

Ideally, Apple has kept the SSD part on a separate card, even if the T2 chip is the controller, though given that they have soldered it on the logic boards in their laptops there is precedent there. Even if it's not a standard M.2 card, there's hope that OWC or someone will be able to get compatible SSDs to market like they did for the 2014 Mini. As long as a "blank" SSD can be initialized to work the the T2 we will be ok.

The difference between 128GB and 2TB is 16x - much bigger than any laptop or previous Mini, and I think the demand for an upgrade solution will be there.
[doublepost=1541204888][/doublepost]Ok, for those of you like this sort of thing, *THIS* is interesting reading.

https://www.apple.com/mac/docs/Apple_T2_Security_Chip_Overview.pdf

It's similar to some ( simpler ) stuff I've worked with in the embedded space. What's interesting is that there are zero details on the NAND flash controller. Looking at what's there, it possible the T2 chip is the interface .. ie. it sits between, the system bus and the actual NVMe controller. And that makes sense, as making an NVMe SSD controller is a difficult and big, expensive thing.. and making one as fast as the current kings of the hill (Samsung, WD's top controllers) means investing enough to go toe-to-toe with those companies in the storage market.

By sitting in the middle, it can do all the encryption and decryption in a secure way, without having to the the nuts and bolts of the actual reading/writing (and that would also mean the block reordering, wear leveling, etc).

but then.. Apple could afford to go all in on that, and it doesn't preclude a separate controller chip on the mainboard, but the way things have been said, that doesn't seem as likely.
 
I'm late to the thread, but in addition to having stayed in a Holdiay Inn last night, I've also done work with embedded systems that had direct interfaces to NAND chips.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here yet, is that the lifespan of a NAND flash chip (in terms of writes) is directly related to the process used to make the NAND chip (size of the cells) and the number of bits per cell stored.

In short - the early SSDs - like the Intel 120GB used 50nm NAND flash and came in 1 and 2-bit per cell varieties. each block on the NAND chip was rated to be re-written 50,000 or even 100,000 times, before statistically you get enough bad cells for the SSD to fail.

More recent NAND chips hold a LOT more data by virtue of much smaller cells - 16nm and 20nm, 3D vertical stacking, and storing more bits per cell (3 or 4). They are also rated for (usually) around 3,000 to 5,000 re-writes. This had allowed SSD prices to come WAAAY down, and why we're not paying $2000 for a 1TB SSD.

The downside is longevity. To some extent, it's been offset by smart algorithms that spread the writes around evenly (wear leveling), and newer filesystems being more optimized for SSD life, but byte-per-byte, you don't get as many writes as you used to.

I skipped a lot about NAND that I could talk about, because the above is the important thing to understand.

Ideally, Apple has kept the SSD part on a separate card, even if the T2 chip is the controller, though given that they have soldered it on the logic boards in their laptops there is precedent there. Even if it's not a standard M.2 card, there's hope that OWC or someone will be able to get compatible SSDs to market like they did for the 2014 Mini. As long as a "blank" SSD can be initialized to work the the T2 we will be ok.

The difference between 128GB and 2TB is 16x - much bigger than any laptop or previous Mini, and I think the demand for an upgrade solution will be there.
[doublepost=1541204888][/doublepost]Ok, for those of you like this sort of thing, *THIS* is interesting reading.

https://www.apple.com/mac/docs/Apple_T2_Security_Chip_Overview.pdf

It's similar to some ( simpler ) stuff I've worked with in the embedded space. What's interesting is that there are zero details on the NAND flash controller. Looking at what's there, it possible the T2 chip is the interface .. ie. it sits between, the system bus and the actual NVMe controller. And that makes sense, as making an NVMe SSD controller is a difficult and big, expensive thing.. and making one as fast as the current kings of the hill (Samsung, WD's top controllers) means investing enough to go toe-to-toe with those companies in the storage market.

By sitting in the middle, it can do all the encryption and decryption in a secure way, without having to the the nuts and bolts of the actual reading/writing (and that would also mean the block reordering, wear leveling, etc).

but then.. Apple could afford to go all in on that, and it doesn't preclude a separate controller chip on the mainboard, but the way things have been said, that doesn't seem as likely.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I learned so much from your post.
 
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512 GB NVMe drives cost a lot less than the $400 Apple wants to charge.

Indeed. Just bought a 1TB 970 Pro (NVMe) for 250 for a Mac Pro... Apple would like to charge me 605 for that option. Same with the RAM:300 vs. 1210 for 64 GB ECC in four modules (VAT excluded on these numbers and only comparing brand new items).

Robbery. :)
 
Indeed. Just bought a 1TB 970 Pro (NVMe) for 250 for a Mac Pro... Apple would like to charge me 605 for that option. Same with the RAM:300 vs. 1210 for 64 GB ECC in four modules (VAT excluded on these numbers and only comparing brand new items).

Robbery. :)
Where did you get it for that price? That is super low!
 
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It's a shame Apple doesn't publish TBW/DWPD values for their SSDs. At the prices, they better be good.

My guess is that for the money, Apple might reserve a slightly bigger space for wear-leveling (effectively shorting the drive).
 
If it is anything less than the drive you mention, then we are being 1000% fleeced. I will never buy one if it is TLC or God forbid, QLC LOL! Personally, I do not even think Apple is that stupid. But I will sure wait until I know!
TLC is ok, but with the lower number of write cycles, I’d say you need a minimum 1TB with good wear levelling software and to effectively never fill the machine more than 2/3 of the way. Obviously at the moment this is an expensive way of only getting 660GB but eventually the cost savings will probably make buying a 2TB TLC more cost effective over a 1TB MLC.
 
So, given that we're talking about SSDs lifespan and wearing out... (beware, it's not the first time I've asked this question): Does working on / using exclusively the external drive count towards the writes count of the main SSD? Because the information passes through the main SSD right?

I don't see why any OS would write data destined to an external drive to the internal drive first.

Fusion drives were a special case, since the data would write to the SSD first (as long as there was room on it) and move transparently to the external drive in more idle times. But in that case, the 2 drives looked like 1 larger drive.

In my case, I'm going to mount my 2TB drive I received yesterday as my home drive /Volumes/username. So the OS drive is distinct.
[doublepost=1541253121][/doublepost]
With the T2 security/disk controller chip, there's no longer any way around having your data encrypted at rest, and so not maintaining a backup strategy has become an even worse choice than it used to be."

I realize I'm in the minority, but I prefer having an UNencrpyted internal hard drive.
I -WANT- all my data to be "in the clear".

From what I've read so far, there are 2 levels of encryption. The basic one, everything is encrypted. If the individual chips were removed from the SSD and put into some reader, the data would be unreadable. If the storage was actually removable and able to be put into another Mac Mini, it would be completely unreadable since it is encrypted with an unique to each T2 chip that supposedly be read. The drive appears to be unreadable, so the protection is against real low level access.

A difference between RHD and SSD, assuming no encryption, is that overwriting data isn't as effective on a SSD. SSDs over provision, so even though it appears that you can overwrite data or the whole drive with random data, if someone pulls the chips out into a special reader, they may be able to find data that hasn't been overwritten that was just invisible to the OS.

The second layer on the new Mini is if you enable FileVault. Apparently, if you do that, your password is then also required to determine the actual key of the data. So you have to provide the password to get to the data. But Filevault won't actually encrypt the data in the OS a second time before writing. So speeds stay fast.
 
Where did you get it for that price? That is super low!

SSD: amazon.de, RAM: a reseller on ebay.de (I have not received it yet but it's supposed to be Samsung-branded, not one of these noname-offers which supposedly may contain substandard parts).
 
If there is enough space in the box, maybe you could somehow fit in a caseless Samsung X5, somehow drill a whole to the box to loop the tb3 cable back in from its port?

Or we should at least have a slim external NVMeSSD drive that looks like the OWC Ministack, a very slim version of the Ministack, that goes below the mac mini?
 
If there is enough space in the box, maybe you could somehow fit in a caseless Samsung X5, somehow drill a whole to the box to loop the tb3 cable back in from its port?

Or we should at least have a slim external NVMeSSD drive that looks like the OWC Ministack, a very slim version of the Ministack, that goes below the mac mini?

That would be option for later, after the Apple Care expires. No one who cares about warranty is gonna do that on Mac Mini out of box.
 
What's interesting is that there are zero details on the NAND flash controller. Looking at what's there, it possible the T2 chip is the interface .. ie. it sits between, the system bus and the actual NVMe controller. And that makes sense, as making an NVMe SSD controller is a difficult and big, expensive thing.. and making one as fast as the current kings of the hill (Samsung, WD's top controllers) means investing enough to go toe-to-toe with those companies in the storage market
Doesn't the T2 chip work in a similar way that the iPhone/IPad do? is there a separate NVMe SSD Controller in the iOS devices, not trying to argue, I just don't know.
 
Doesn't the T2 chip work in a similar way that the iPhone/IPad do? is there a separate NVMe SSD Controller in the iOS devices, not trying to argue, I just don't know.

I don't know either.

The thing that raised my eyebrows was the speeds given for the Mini's SSD - as fast as the fastest consumer M.2 SSDs currently (the 970 evo/pro) and the controller on those is not a simple chip (4x PCIe 3.1+ lanes, DRAM and/or SLC caching, highly parallel access to v-nand or similar, etc) That makes me wonder if Apple wanted to bring all that would be needed for that in house or not.

Our iOS devices doesn't have PCIe lanes for starters, and don't need (or have) speeds that fast or NAND chips that new/expensive.
 
The reviews were just posted on MR and one of the reviews says that the new Mini uses PCIe storage cards. If that is true and if they can be replaced i'm 100% buying a new one with an i7 CPU.
 
The reviews were just posted on MR and one of the reviews says that the new Mini uses PCIe storage cards. If that is true and if they can be replaced i'm 100% buying a new one with an i7 CPU.
It will be interesting to see just what exactly this means... will it have a proprietary form factor different from your average M.2 drive? Or will it have a proprietary connector like on the trashcan Mac Pro? Mabe we will all get lucky and it will be a standard, off the shelf blade (probably not).

Hopefully either tomorrow or Thursday someone will have given us definitive answers.
 
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