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Are we over-criticizing the 720p webcam?
- Thread starter ian87w
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You’re right in one sense but not in another - lens size still is a factor. Of course sensor improvements are a major factor too.
Otherwise why would you use a larger aperture telescope vs a smaller one with the same magnification? The larger one has more light-gathering capability. Same goes for the camera.
Interesting factoid about the “seethrough” capability...I still have that camera somewhere...hmm.
Maybe I should buy some of that for myself.
You're really overestimating the amount of people on this forum who are actually willing to take a few minutes out of their lives to watch the video.
I have a couple of webcam covers like this - unlikely you'd ever need to replace them.
I don't do the tape thing, but everyone I know does.
They could care less about the tape residue because they hate the fact that the camera exists at all.
Why don't they care about their iPhone cameras? Because it's not pointed directly at them 8+ hours a day.
With 2016+ MBPs, there are many instances of screens cracked down the middle because of accessories like this.I have a couple of webcam covers like this - unlikely you'd ever need to replace them.
Bro, no. It’s just a bad camera. It’s time for you to accept reality.
Sure, it’s better than some trashy PC webcam. But that doesn’t make it good.
It doesn’t even capture half the clarity of the iPhone‘s front-facing camera. Heck, it’s not even close to the quality of my old 2013 iPhone 5S front-facing camera.
It’s a bad camera, and it needs to go. Especially during this era when we rely on video conferencing day by day.
There’s no reason for you to defend bad tech. Stop it.
By all means, find a way to fit even your 5s camera in that lid. We can wait.
Nope, you misunderstood my post. I never said lens size wasn't a factor. Specifically, in using the RX1R to illustrate how technological progress has allowed remarkable miniaturization, I was careful to specify that I was talking purely about the body: That the much smaller body of the RX1R accommodates a far better sensor (with 15x the area!) compared with the the much bulkier 707. I was careful to avoid comparing lens sizes between the two, since it wouldn't be fair to the F707--its was a zoom lens, while the RX1R's is a prime.
But if you want to talk about lens size: Of course lens size is a factor, but extraordinary miniaturization has happened there as well (much smaller overall packages with the same entrance pupil, and thus the same light-gathering capacity). The one thing they can't reduce (for a given sensor size, f-stop, and FOV) is the lens-sensor distance.
And better sensor and image processing technology can compensate for the key deficiency of small lens size, which is poor light-gathering ability. It's been estimated by DXOMARK that the two together have given a 4 EV boost in performance over the past decade or so. Larger lenses are still better, but that only when you add the qualifier "everything else being equal."
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camera lenses are not comparable to small diffraction limited lenses. The latter use technologies and manufacturing techniques that wouldn’t make sense ATM for cameras. Camera lenses tend to be quite far behind and a lot more conventional than smartphone lenses in general.
Apple could and probably will improve the overall webcam system of their laptops, but they will only do so with an extensive redesign of the display lid. It wouldn’t make much sense to spend resources redesigning their MBs lid when a total redesign is expected in 2021 for the higher end MBP and 2022 for the rest.
At which point we’ll see which direction they went, which is unlikely to be a larger sensor / lens anyway as it wouldn’t make much sense in the era of vanishing bezels and probably because the noise would still remain a fundamental problem anyway. I think it much more likely that Apple will use a multi camera system, possibly with Face ID if they managed to make the system a lot thinner than it currently is.
Apple could and probably will improve the overall webcam system of their laptops, but they will only do so with an extensive redesign of the display lid. It wouldn’t make much sense to spend resources redesigning their MBs lid when a total redesign is expected in 2021 for the higher end MBP and 2022 for the rest.
At which point we’ll see which direction they went, which is unlikely to be a larger sensor / lens anyway as it wouldn’t make much sense in the era of vanishing bezels and probably because the noise would still remain a fundamental problem anyway. I think it much more likely that Apple will use a multi camera system, possibly with Face ID if they managed to make the system a lot thinner than it currently is.
Good post and fair points. Definitely image sensor improvement has been the big driver. And of course you can’t directly compare the F707 with the Apple webcam...
The built in mics in all laptops are not great - but will do on the go
The built in camera in all laptops is not great - but will do on the go
The built in audio output in all laptops is not great - but will do on the go
The surface go was currently the best camera built into a laptop - and guess what ? still 720p
Apple don't make camera sensors - they rely on technology from third parties. Complain to Sony that they don't make a full HD camera that fits into the MacBook chassis.
Now where is my damn flying car !!!!
You're seriously suggesting that the iPhone's front-facing camera wouldn't fit where the MacBook's front-facing camera currently resides? Get real, dude. Of course it would fit. Have you ever taken a phone apart, or looked at the internal components?
I have many times - have you ?
The camera on the Macbook display is appx 1.5mm thick, vs around 3mm for the iPhone and its 720p video. The thinnest commercially available 1080p camera module available is around 2.5mm thick and image quality is not great with the stock optics.
Yes apple could add one of their higher quality iPhone or iPad cameras, but ONLY by adding significantly bigger bezels and thicker lid. Would the customers be happy with that trade-off ?
Instead they opted to use software to increase the image quality as a tradeoff to making the MB gain some weight.
To settle this, we need some numbers!
What is the actual depth (in mm) of the iPhone's front facing camera assembly? And what is the available depth in the MBP's lid (which would be the distance from the screen surface to the back (which can be measured with calipers) minus the thickness of the aluminum back, minus the thickness of the screen glass.
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The only 1080p laptop-lid-webcam I know of is in the Pixelbook Go. Is that the one to which you're referring?
But what's the limit—i.e., what's the max depth the MBP lid could accommodate?
It's not the one I'm referring to, but it maybe the same module. I can't find the link for it right now .. but scoured the inter webs a short while back and found that 2.5mm was the thinnest currently available 1080 camera. The quality was mediocre with anything less than great lighting making the image look pretty bad.
The current cam appears to be just a little thicker than a SIM card excluding the board. iPad front camera module is at least twice as thick and has a much longer lens.
How much space exactly? I haven't found any teardowns on recent macbook displays. maybe they could shave a fraction of a mm off the aluminium casing, but some of the display electronics appear to be located up there as well.
Maybe they could glue the camera in to save space on mountings, but there would of course be uproar about that as well.
Read the thread, dude. The iPhone image sensor package is a LOT bigger than the FaceTime HD camera.
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