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AutomaticApple

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Nov 28, 2018
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You're seriously suggesting that the iPhone's front-facing camera wouldn't fit where the MacBook's front-facing camera currently resides? Get real, dude. Of course it would fit. Have you ever taken a phone apart, or looked at the internal components?
Can you prove that you actually know what you're talking about? Actually, are you just trolling? ?

Why are we beating a dead horse? I guess you couldn't let the thread die and just had to continue the bickering...

Seriously, I don't want to argue about this anymore, and I hope that you agree with me. We should just come to a conclusion that satisfies both parties and end it there on a high note.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,417
1,494
Seriously, I don't want to argue about this anymore, and I hope that you agree with me. We should just come to a conclusion that satisfies both parties and end it there on a high note.
You mean like just conceding that the M1's neural engine fairydust makes for a far better webcam image in all lighting conditions than previous MacBooks.

That as soon as a 1080p sensor package is available that fits into a MacBook's limited space is available that Apple will most likely adopt it, as I'm sure the software to enhance the existing camera was probably more expensive to build that the pennies saved on the sensor.

Bottom line the new camera looks a million times better than previous MB's and is more than adequate for normal everyday Zoom and FaceTime meetings - so to one last video.


Of course the creatures from under the bridge expect the existing minuscule camera to perform like a Logitech Brio.
 
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sracer

macrumors G4
Apr 9, 2010
10,405
13,290
where hip is spoken
"720p ought to be enough for anybody" -Tim Cook, probably

The quality of the latest Macbook webcams is adequate and serves the purpose. But for those who are doing anything more than a Brady Bunch-style Zoom call, the limitations really start to show. Claiming it is a potato-cam is just as hyperbolic as saying it is terrific.
 

MarkAtl

macrumors 6502
Jul 9, 2019
402
407
"720p ought to be enough for anybody" -Tim Cook, probably

The quality of the latest Macbook webcams is adequate and serves the purpose. But for those who are doing anything more than a Brady Bunch-style Zoom call, the limitations really start to show. Claiming it is a potato-cam is just as hyperbolic as saying it is terrific.
It’s a fair point. Likely up until now “adequate” has been perfectly fine for Cook, as he wants to manage supply chain costs.

Enter 2020 and everyone working remotely, and suddenly “adequate” gets a lot of focus as the webcam is used. For the past 7-8 years before this year that I’ve used a MBP for work I could count the amount of times I’ve used the webcam on both hands. Now I’m on Zoom daily. And even now I use a C920 at my desk.

If it’s important to Apple, then they will find a way to improve the camera.
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
It’s a fair point. Likely up until now “adequate” has been perfectly fine for Cook, as he wants to manage supply chain costs.

Enter 2020 and everyone working remotely, and suddenly “adequate” gets a lot of focus as the webcam is used. For the past 7-8 years before this year that I’ve used a MBP for work I could count the amount of times I’ve used the webcam on both hands. Now I’m on Zoom daily. And even now I use a C920 at my desk.

If it’s important to Apple, then they will find a way to improve the camera.
Ok let’s cut to the chase. It’s obvious that FaceID is coming to macs soon. HOWEVER the M1 machines released were NOT going to be retooled. So the “true” vision of Mac portables will be released when they stick the FaceID in there (likely with a thicker screen to accommodate). Apple was never going to put a better camera in this stopgap model, these are purely to demonstrate the power of M1 in a direct comparison to the intels they replaced.

People may be unhappy with that, but why would they re-engineer the entire lid assembly for what is going to essentially be a half generation product?
 
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AutomaticApple

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"720p ought to be enough for anybody" -Tim Cook, probably

The quality of the latest Macbook webcams is adequate and serves the purpose. But for those who are doing anything more than a Brady Bunch-style Zoom call, the limitations really start to show. Claiming it is a potato-cam is just as hyperbolic as saying it is terrific.
It’s a fair point. Likely up until now “adequate” has been perfectly fine for Cook, as he wants to manage supply chain costs.

Enter 2020 and everyone working remotely, and suddenly “adequate” gets a lot of focus as the webcam is used. For the past 7-8 years before this year that I’ve used a MBP for work I could count the amount of times I’ve used the webcam on both hands. Now I’m on Zoom daily. And even now I use a C920 at my desk.

If it’s important to Apple, then they will find a way to improve the camera.
Yes, exactly! Adequate is what I'm trying to get at. It will do the job.
Ok let’s cut to the chase. It’s obvious that FaceID is coming to macs soon. HOWEVER the M1 machines released were NOT going to be retooled. So the “true” vision of Mac portables will be released when they stick the FaceID in there (likely with a thicker screen to accommodate). Apple was never going to put a better camera in this stopgap model, these are purely to demonstrate the power of M1 in a direct comparison to the intels they replaced.

People may be unhappy with that, but why would they re-engineer the entire lid assembly for what is going to essentially be a half generation product?
Now you're making me wonder how they'll fit the Face ID sensor in the MacBook lid. ?
 

NT1440

macrumors Pentium
May 18, 2008
15,092
22,158
Yes, exactly! Adequate is what I'm trying to get at. It will do the job.

Now you're making me wonder how they'll fit the Face ID sensor in the MacBook lid. ?
With a total redesign of the chassis. Get ready for a ton of whiners that the lid of the new machines is thicker (ignoring that the total device thickness will probably be equal or less than current chassis), this is MR after all.
 

PinoRavvit

macrumors member
Nov 13, 2020
72
32
With a total redesign of the chassis. Get ready for a ton of whiners that the lid of the new machines is thicker (ignoring that the total device thickness will probably be equal or less than current chassis), this is MR after all.
it's Current Year(tm) after all.

makes me wonder what these people actually want in their machines
 

Spindel

macrumors 6502a
Oct 5, 2020
521
655
After I stated earlier in this thread that I found web cams useless my company issued an order that we have to have the webcam on atleast in the beginning of every internal meeting :p

Well anyway got a logitech c920. While 1080p I wouldn’t say it is any better than the 720p webcam I had in my iMac, from 2013.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,417
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After I stated earlier in this thread that I found web cams useless my company issued an order that we have to have the webcam on atleast in the beginning of every internal meeting :p

Well anyway got a logitech c920. While 1080p I wouldn’t say it is any better than the 720p webcam I had in my iMac, from 2013.
The c920 can look absolutely fantastic and quite a bit better than the iMac's built in one under the right circumstances.

But, like any camera you only get those great results if you are willing to invest in a ton of good additional lighting and spend time placing it optimally.

I'd warrant that the MBA's camera would give some pretty awesome results as well with some effort. But everyone seems to be focused on how it performs in shoddy, badly lit living room conditions.

 

Spindel

macrumors 6502a
Oct 5, 2020
521
655
The c920 can look absolutely fantastic and quite a bit better than the iMac's built in one under the right circumstances.

But, like any camera you only get those great results if you are willing to invest in a ton of good additional lighting and spend time placing it optimally.

I'd warrant that the MBA's camera would give some pretty awesome results as well with some effort. But everyone seems to be focused on how it performs in shoddy, badly lit living room conditions.

But better lighting would also improve the image quality of my old 720p camera. But given my conditions are basically unchanged except for the camera with basically no difference in image quality I’m willing to conclude that: no the 720p camera in the M1 macs doesn’t suck and Apple did the right thing not to blow snoken up peoples asses by putting a 1080p camera in there. All the people saying otherwise only look at numbers on a paper.

remember we are talking about webcam formfactor here. Of course a Lumix GF6 will perform better than a webcam.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,417
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Apple did the right thing not to blow snoken up peoples asses by putting a 1080p camera in there. All the people saying otherwise only look at numbers on a paper.
Too true. Crazy thing is if they didn't mention the resolution at all and just upscaled the NE enhanced image to 1080p probably wouldn't be having a 16 page discussion. It might just have been accepted that the camera was simply a hullalot better than the previous gen.
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,060
I understand Jony Ive fought hard for the camera to have only one pixel, which would have been beautifully minimalistic. A sophsticated AI algorithm would then determine which combination of subpixels would best represent your "essence" that day. Hence each person would be represented by their own personalized monochromatic color swatch.
 

SaguaroSeven

macrumors 6502
May 20, 2020
347
160
Washington DC
Haha! This reminds me of a friend who got a gaming PC laptop with webcam. The cam was 1080, but it was located below the display, so you got a great view of his hands and fingers on the keyboard. Looked ridiculous. If the MacBook Pro M1 cam is as good as it looks in the vid I'll be happy.
 

deevey

macrumors 65816
Dec 4, 2004
1,417
1,494
Now you're making me wonder how they'll fit the Face ID sensor in the MacBook lid. ?
The sensor might not necessarily need to be located on the top. It could be located on the chassis behind the keyboard maybe ?
Haha! This reminds me of a friend who got a gaming PC laptop with webcam. The cam was 1080, but it was located below the display, so you got a great view of his hands and fingers on the keyboard. Looked ridiculous. If the MacBook Pro M1 cam is as good as it looks in the vid I'll be happy.
Still beats the Nostril-Vision Cam on the Huawei Matebook though :p
 
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AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
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Massachusetts
With a total redesign of the chassis. Get ready for a ton of whiners that the lid of the new machines is thicker (ignoring that the total device thickness will probably be equal or less than current chassis), this is MR after all.
And people here complain about Twitter... :p
The sensor might not necessarily need to be located on the top. It could be located on the chassis behind the keyboard maybe ?
Like the Samsung Galaxy Chromebook?
1607381191600.png
 

theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,060
Maybe a motorized telescoping periscope camera that extends from the keyboard to face height. But it should still be just 1 pixel.
 

lysingur

macrumors 6502a
Dec 30, 2013
746
1,171
You can’t just shrink this 1.5lb camera to a fraction of an ounce and expect the same results.

specsview.jpeg
You just don't know how technology works. Few in the 80s thought we could shrink a computer into a handheld device and get much better results either.
 

AutomaticApple

Suspended
Nov 28, 2018
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Massachusetts
You just don't know how technology works. Few in the 80s thought we could shrink a computer into a handheld device and get much better results either.
You don't seem to know much more.

This person clearly knows their stuff. We should listen to them.
First of all, I have not characterised the MB webcam, so I cannot guarantee it is diffraction limited. And I am not involved in small lens development, so everything I say is based on general optical knowledge. However, if the lens weren't at least close to the diffraction limit, the resolution would be much worse. And on the other hand, the engineering effort stops at the diffraction limit.

"Real" camera lenses are a bit different story when it comes to their dimensions and tolerances. There it really holds true that diffraction limits apply only when stopped down to maybe f/4 or even f/8. Actually, the same applies to the human eye, it is diffraction limited to approximately 3 mm pupil size, larger apertures are limited by optical aberrations mainly in the cornea.

But even with DSLRs the story is a bit different with smaller sensors and full frame sensors. It is more difficult to make a diffraction-limited FF lens than a diffraction-limited crop sensor lens. One way to think of this is to consider the diffraction limit size on the sensor. The diffraction limit on the image plane (sensor surface) depends only on the f-number, not on the focal length of the sensor. It is easier to make a lens which creates a 1.3 mm x 1.7 mm image diffraction-limited (where the diffraction limit of 2.5 um is in the order of 1 / 500 of the image size) than a 36 mm x 24 mm image with the same diffraction limit (where the same diffraction limit is in the order of 1 / 15,000 of the image size).

It would actually be a fun — and not a very difficult — experiment to characterise the transfer function of the webcam. Print a spoke target (google "Siemens star") and keep it at a suitable constant distance from the camera. Take a snapshot of the target (well-illuminated) and look at the softening of the star. In this case you can just print a target with a laser printer (there are PDFs available). If you vary the distance of the target, you can see the effect of the lack of auto-focus. (Spoke target is great because it is scale-invariant, i.e., you do not need to take the distance into account.)

And, of course, the resolution may be quite different in different areas of the image. The center may be (close to) diffraction-limited, but the corners may be much softer.



The image size per se is not a problem. It is well possible to make much smaller pixels than we have at the moment. Smallest pixels available are typically around 1.0 um x 1.0 um, and semiconductor processes would allow much smaller photosites. (There is another limit, though, and that relates to the maximum dynamic range of a pixel.)

The main problem is really the physical aperture of the lens, because that is the problem with the laws of physics. Then engineering limitations tell us something about the distance from the lens to the image plane. So, the engineering logic goes like this: need larger physical aperture (more light, less diffraction effects) -> need a longer focal length (to avoid impossible numerical apertures) -> need more distance to the sensor and a larger sensor.

The formulae for image and pixel size are quite simple in geometric terms. Let us use the following quantities:

f — focal length of the lens
? — horizontal (or vertical) FOV angle
n — number of pixels horizontally (or vertically)

Physical size of the sensor is then (distance from the lens to the image is f):

d = f * 2 * tan(? / 2)

(Draw it and revise high school trigonometry!) And pixel size:

p = d / n

So, for a 78° (horizontal) FOV webcam with 3.7 mm focal length and 1920x1080 image:

d = 3.7 mm * 2 * tan(39°) ≈ 6 mm
p ≈ 6 mm / 1920 ≈ 3.0 um

Reasonable pixel sizes are between 1 um (small phone/webcam) and 10 um (full-frame sensor).
 

smetvid

macrumors 6502a
Nov 1, 2009
555
439
I would personally take the cleaner 1080p camera Apple could have included over a cleaner 720p camera.

Speaking of bandwidth, the videoconference softwares compress the video stream so it’s not a problem.

and if what you say is to be true (that 1080p uses more battery) then the effect should be tiny and be counterbalanced by the M1’s crazy low consumption by far

But hey, Thanks Apple for including 10+ yr old stuff because we look bad these days
Hey I get it and yes a 1080p camera would be nice but I still think we are making a bigger deal about this than we need to be. Even the Razer Blade 15" and 17" laptops which are higher end PC gaming laptops only have 720p cameras so it isn't exactly fair to act like Apple is doing some kind of injustice here. Where is the constant public outrage over the Razer using a 720p camera?
 

macsound1

macrumors 6502a
May 17, 2007
835
866
SF Bay Area
Couldn't the same argument be made for MacBooks?
Not sure what you mean. What I meant is - people hate their computer cameras because the camera faces them as they work on their computer. Their phone can be in their pocket, on the table facing the ceiling, in another room, whatever. The computer camera can't. It's always there.
 
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