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Are we over-criticizing the 720p webcam?
- Thread starter ian87w
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Apple probably got a great deal on like 100 million of these 720p webcams. And they need to use them all up before they can move to a new version!
Given that no laptop webcam has already reached 720p's worth of actual resolution because of excessive noise, it would be completely irrational, idiotic and a step backward to reduce the sensor's pixel size even further by going for a 1080p sensor with the same form factor.
If people want the effective resolution of their webcam to improve, what they should be asking for first and foremost is lower noise (even in good light noise is high enough that it compromises resolution ATM), not a higher pixel count, and possibly a significant redesign that manages to either increase the size of the sensor or use the embedded logic to increase the "smarts" of the webcam system (someone suggested combining several, small 720p cameras in this thread for example, there may be other alternatives).
If people want the effective resolution of their webcam to improve, what they should be asking for first and foremost is lower noise (even in good light noise is high enough that it compromises resolution ATM), not a higher pixel count, and possibly a significant redesign that manages to either increase the size of the sensor or use the embedded logic to increase the "smarts" of the webcam system (someone suggested combining several, small 720p cameras in this thread for example, there may be other alternatives).
Lol such a lenghty discussion 🙂
When I switched to the M1 Mini I got a new monitor without a webcam at all (switched from iMac) and no external web cam.
I’m working from home, and on metings (mostly teams) there is no point of a webcam since we mostly look at a shared document anyway.
This is such a non issue even now in Corona times.
When I switched to the M1 Mini I got a new monitor without a webcam at all (switched from iMac) and no external web cam.
I’m working from home, and on metings (mostly teams) there is no point of a webcam since we mostly look at a shared document anyway.
This is such a non issue even now in Corona times.
So Apple’s benchmark now is just to be better than the competition? And consumers would be alright with it?
Now, I am not saying video quality might not have improved via software. I’m just saying they could have innovated in this department through hardware now - it is long, long overdue. When I see someone using a better camera quality it shows. And my MacBook camera does not seem too great. If it were a better resolution camera with better light-handling properties, it would be a better overall product. The price they are charging for these notebooks is not just about M1. It’s about the whole package and people seem to have forgotten that. They will try to justify the pricing by R&D costs on the single thing different in the whole product.
Yes. For collaboration where people are working on stuff it will make more sense to look at stuff together and not at each other’s faces and call it a productive meeting. 😂
I don't think the problem is the fact that the camera is 720p. The problem is the fact that Apple puts a 720p camera on a £1,300++ laptop.
No, it sucks, and I think even Apple knows it. I’m sure it’s a design decision, and I believe the next generation will improve upon it. I think it’s also possible the engineers love trying to optimize cheaper/lower grade hardware to the maximum. That’s kinda cool.
Am I really the only one who would be happier if there was no webcam at all lol. I’m so glad the trend of putting cams on TVs died so fast.
on my windows machine step 1 is disabling the cam in bios.
on my windows machine step 1 is disabling the cam in bios.
Increasing the resolution of the sensor all else remaining equal would lower the effective resolution of the camera system because of increased noise, and that regardless of price. You’d get less details with a 1080p sensor, not more.
What’s needed is for the “else” to change at some point, but even if Apple managed to increase the size of the sensor by some decent amount you’d still be better off with 720p worth of pixels if what you want is to actually increase details instead of filling a spec sheet.
What could happen in the future is that Apple may manage to design a Face ID system that’s shallow enough to fit in a MacBook’s lid and this could be coming with a chassis redesign and this could be the occasion for them to change the “else”.
While I wouldn't say I would prefer no cams at all, the cam is certainly not what I would check when choosing the device. In fact, when I bought the 16" MacBook Pro, when most reviewers agreed on one of the only cons being 720p webcam, I knew the device was really good otherwise.
Well, with respect, I disagree for the following reasons:
1. Not everyone is using their Webcams for Zoom / Skype etc. FaceTime is very capable and speaking to a loved one on full screen is not the same as having your photo appear in a small square, as it does on Zoom.
2. If Apple can claim to have improved the quality of 720p video using AI, I am pretty sure they could remove the noise using the same. I cannot believe my eyes many people here say that if Apple put a 1080p camera, the picture quality would be grainy.
3. The one and only reason Apple has kept the 720p camera is for their endless obsession with cost saving.
PS: 20+ years of a happy Mac user here.
720p is just pathetic in 2020. If Steve Jobs was still here, we would be on 4K resolution now. He'll have figured out a way to cramp much better optics into the shallow lid area. Tim and his lazy ass
Speaking of which, btw, the front facing camera on the latest iPhones are also quite crap. They say it's 7MP, but the image quality really is quite grainy with lots of noise and the details are so muted (not sharp at all).
I thought Smart HDR would smooth out some of these pains, but nope, the image quality is still really disappointing on both my iPhone XS Max and M1 MacBook Pro
Apple really should completely revamp front facing camera qualities on all products (the rate of innovation for rear cameras are okay in recent years)
Speaking of which, btw, the front facing camera on the latest iPhones are also quite crap. They say it's 7MP, but the image quality really is quite grainy with lots of noise and the details are so muted (not sharp at all).
I thought Smart HDR would smooth out some of these pains, but nope, the image quality is still really disappointing on both my iPhone XS Max and M1 MacBook Pro
Apple really should completely revamp front facing camera qualities on all products (the rate of innovation for rear cameras are okay in recent years)
I think this is only true since August 2020; before that it also took a long time until Apple changed something since 2011 (before that we used VGA).
The main issue with poor image quality these days in real world is still the limited bandwidth.
I have daily experience with this in transcontinental connections between the USA and Europe.
Apple tries quite intelligently to compensate (audio and) video for fluctuations in the server chain.
Sometimes it works perfectly, sometimes miserably. Sometimes VPN or a line rebuild or rooter reset helps.
Apple has of course done the best possible with the new variable HEVC encoding. AI can of course work a little bit on the color and the microcontrast after decompression, I am curious to see what this will do.
Other software (Skype) still limits the bandwidth to 720p, so a different camera there makes no sense.
And the camera lens and light sensitivity are essential for photographers, here rather not that much.
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'the rate of innovation for rear cameras are okay in recent years...'
With such disparagement you show how little technical knowledge and appreciation you have. I'm sorry to say this, but this is how you devalue your comment this time.
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More important than moving past 720P are larger pixels (because people have terrible lighting) and autofocus (because cameras this thin use Fixed Focus)
Other important factors that few seem to recognise are that we all look worse if a camera is close enough to touch and worse again if it is looking up at us from below.
All of us can solve ALL of these problems using our phone’s 2x camera instead.
Apple (if they develop much much better camera technology that fits in a thin laptop lid or with a camera bump) can solve ½ of these issues).
Other important factors that few seem to recognise are that we all look worse if a camera is close enough to touch and worse again if it is looking up at us from below.
All of us can solve ALL of these problems using our phone’s 2x camera instead.
Apple (if they develop much much better camera technology that fits in a thin laptop lid or with a camera bump) can solve ½ of these issues).
this is the best point i’ve seen. lower res is generally better for vchat session stability. vocal clarity is more important anyway and apple knows this, hence the comparatively substantial mic array upgrade
And who cares? Really, what are actual use cases of a better camera? Most people don't even enable the camera if they don't have to. Then they enable virtual backgrounds so their home doesn't have to be perfect. And in Zoom they enable "touch up my appearance" to deliberately filter out unwanted high definition face features. Meetings are about getting things done, not about the perfect look and lighting on camera.
Certainly there is the occasional person with their expensive equipment. But at least to me all it does is signaling wrong priorities. "Oh nice, you bought a microphone and expensive camera and set up your desk and lights like a studio.. AND WHEN DO I GET THE RESULTS YOU PROMISED LAST WEEK?!!!"
More important than moving past 720P are larger pixels (because people have terrible lighting) and autofocus (because cameras this thin use Fixed Focus)
Other important factors that few seem to recognise are that we all look worse if a camera is close enough to touch and worse again if it is looking up at us from below.
All of us can solve ALL of these problems using our phone’s 2x camera instead.
Apple (if they develop much much better camera technology that fits in a thin laptop lid or with a camera bump) can solve ½ of these issues).
Other important factors that few seem to recognise are that we all look worse if a camera is close enough to touch and worse again if it is looking up at us from below.
All of us can solve ALL of these problems using our phone’s 2x camera instead.
Apple (if they develop much much better camera technology that fits in a thin laptop lid or with a camera bump) can solve ½ of these issues).
Completely agree.
They position themselves as a premium brand, they should deliver better quality for that price.
Even if some softwares limit the bandwith to 720p, Apple always tried to justify their higher price tag with putting great technology into their products (even if not currently 100% supported). You have to consider the fact, people are buying these premium priced machines for 5 years+, not for a couple of months,...
