Are we seeing a post-"Everything just works"-Apple?

[Danley]

I disagree with the statement that Windows looks more attractive than ever... Windows 8 is possibly the worst possible thing I could imagine dealing with PC-wise, on a daily basis. I'm on day two of owning my first Mac computer, and the learning curve in going to the next version of Windows is greater than the one I've seen so far in my transition to the Mac world.

That's damn decent, to me. Apple is still good at making things intuitive... Reminds me of how amazing it was to pick up an iPhone for the first time, and just sort of know how to do things without being told.

That said, I do with I had an iPad that "Just Worked," as I mostly bought this Macbook because the most recent updates rendered it non-functional (and a blown-up PC was the other factor, to be fair). As a new user I can't historically comment on whether this phenomena hasn't been around for a while, but my impression was that Apple's integration of hardware and software would minimize new OS's etc. rendering units non-functional... Which is the worst part of the "old" Windows model.

 

[Agent-J]

That's not true at all. By and large, everything DOES "just work". The point is that there have always been issues every once in a while. Always have been and always will be.

Suppose an Apple product could do 20 things, and 95% worked. But you did all 20 things every time you used the product. So, every time you used it, something would not work. That's what's happening.

Apple releases software before it's ready. I used to look forward to new releases, but have learned from experience that they will be bug-ridden. By integrating different devices and OS's, the likelihood of issues grows geometrically. Apple's hitting the wall. And by the time they finally have things working smoothly, it's time for the next major upgrade and things that had been fixed are broken again.

One of these days, maybe it's already here, Android will be no more buggy than iOS. Since Android phones tend to be cheaper than iPhones, people will start to jump ship en masse. And since Apple relies on iOS for almost all its revenue, that will be a Very Bad Day in Cupertino.

 

[mercuryjones]

Suppose an Apple product could do 20 things, and 95% worked. But you did all 20 things every time you used the product. So, every time you used it, something would not work. That's what's happening.

Apple releases software before it's ready. I used to look forward to new releases, but have learned from experience that they will be bug-ridden. By integrating different devices and OS's, the likelihood of issues grows geometrically. Apple's hitting the wall. And by the time they finally have things working smoothly, it's time for the next major upgrade and things that had been fixed are broken again.

One of these days, maybe it's already here, Android will be no more buggy than iOS. Since Android phones tend to be cheaper than iPhones, people will start to jump ship en masse. And since Apple relies on iOS for almost all its revenue, that will be a Very Bad Day in Cupertino.

If you think a new release of Android is any less buggy than a new release of iOS, you might want to rethink that thought.
Once you start designing software to do more and more things out of the box, there are going to be issues. QA is not some 100% catch all bugs department. It's a catchy he big bugs first and then work on the small things later type of department. There's just not time enough in the day, nor enough people to throw at it, to make it 100% perfect.
That's why beta tests and bug reports are so important to companies like Apple. Yes, we are all in the beta test together, regardless of the platform we have chosen to use.

 

[Agent-J]

If you think a new release of Android is any less buggy than a new release of iOS, you might want to rethink that thought.
Once you start designing software to do more and more things out of the box, there are going to be issues. QA is not some 100% catch all bugs department. It's a catchy he big bugs first and then work on the small things later type of department. There's just not time enough in the day, nor enough people to throw at it, to make it 100% perfect.
That's why beta tests and bug reports are so important to companies like Apple. Yes, we are all in the beta test together, regardless of the platform we have chosen to use.

So we're basically in agreement, then. (And "small things" includes, for iOS 8.1 on my 5S, having to force quit and restart the Messages app most every time I need to use it, because it freezes.)

But if people are being used as beta testers on a $949 iPhone 6 Plus, how's that better than being a beta tester on a One Plus One that's $600 cheaper? If some of the iOS features I expected don't work properly for months, and ones I regularly used are broken, why should I stick with iOS?

These are rhetorical questions, obviously. Most iOS users will stick with Apple because they're hip-deep in the ecosystem. But many won't, especially as more and more of the apps people use appear in Android.

If Apple is going to bet the entire company on iOS, that software had better work flawlessly. Or, that's what I'd tell my engineers if I were in charge. It shouldn't be good enough to say, "Hey, guys and gals, just like, you know, do the best you can, we'll let the end users sort it out. And anyway, they'll keep buying our stuff even if they're angry, so we're good."

There are enough quality Android products out there that Apple should be nervous. There are a finite number of people, with finite dollars, willing to pay the Apple premium. That premium used to be due to getting the best hardware and software. Not so much these days.

 

[Renzatic]

Two things, from my perspective:

(1) Apple gets unfair critical coverage from most news outlets because of the popularity. Saying "Cloud Breach" gets a millionth the attention and clicks than saying "iCloud Breach." Little things get magnified and blown out of proportion on a regular basis. Things that get barely a footnote for Google get front stage center when it's about Apple. Lately this has been true with iCloud, or with the seasonal viruses that come around, get hyped up to high heaven, and turn out to be nothing.

Eh. Not really. I read news all the time about Apple, Google, and MS, and I can tell your right now that Apple doesn't get called out or picked on any more than the other two. Sometimes someone will have something stupid to say about some thing or another Apple did, but that's bound to happen now that they're a bigger, more widespread company.

 

[mercuryjones]

So we're basically in agreement, then. (And "small things" includes, for iOS 8.1 on my 5S, having to force quit and restart the Messages app most every time I need to use it, because it freezes.)

But if people are being used as beta testers on a $949 iPhone 6 Plus, how's that better than being a beta tester on a One Plus One that's $600 cheaper? If some of the iOS features I expected don't work properly for months, and ones I regularly used are broken, why should I stick with iOS?

These are rhetorical questions, obviously. Most iOS users will stick with Apple because they're hip-deep in the ecosystem. But many won't, especially as more and more of the apps people use appear in Android.

If Apple is going to bet the entire company on iOS, that software had better work flawlessly. Or, that's what I'd tell my engineers if I were in charge. It shouldn't be good enough to say, "Hey, guys and gals, just like, you know, do the best you can, we'll let the end users sort it out. And anyway, they'll keep buying our stuff even if they're angry, so we're good."

There are enough quality Android products out there that Apple should be nervous. There are a finite number of people, with finite dollars, willing to pay the Apple premium. That premium used to be due to getting the best hardware and software. Not so much these days.

It's really a choice of "buggy" iOS or "buggy" Android. It's not like switching platforms automatically gives you a better experience.
And just because you spend less money on something, means that you'll be more forgiving of the issues? I think you are not understanding the market then. OnePlus is selling the phones at cost, just so they can get into the market. You think once they start mass producing them, that they are going to keep the cost the same? How is that good business? Amazon and Google can do it, because they have the backend infrastructure to make additional money off the hardware. OnePlus? Not so much.

 

[Melrose]

Eh. Not really. I read news all the time about Apple, Google, and MS, and I can tell your right now that Apple doesn't get called out or picked on any more than the other two. Sometimes someone will have something stupid to say about some thing or another Apple did, but that's bound to happen now that they're a bigger, more widespread company.

We evidently read different news.

 

[Agent-J]

It's really a choice of "buggy" iOS or "buggy" Android. It's not like switching platforms automatically gives you a better experience.
And just because you spend less money on something, means that you'll be more forgiving of the issues? I think you are not understanding the market then. OnePlus is selling the phones at cost, just so they can get into the market. You think once they start mass producing them, that they are going to keep the cost the same? How is that good business? Amazon and Google can do it, because they have the backend infrastructure to make additional money off the hardware. OnePlus? Not so much.

Again, though, we are in agreement; the Apple premium gets me a phone with an Apple on the back that's no less glitchy than phones costing much less. I'm not more forgiving of issues when I spend less money, but I'm LESS forgiving if I spend MORE money. I figure cheaper devices will have more issues, and I expect more expensive devices to have fewer issues. And if my expensive device is about the most expensive out there, I expect VERY few issues.

And you're absolutely right about the OnePlus price; but if they double the price, it's still 2/3 of iPhone 6 Plus. The hardware on the OnePlus looks pretty good. My son's getting one soon, and I'll get to play with it then. It's the first time in years I've thought seriously about not getting another iPhone.

 

[roadbloc]

We evidently read different news.

Well if your main source of news is MacRumors then obviously you're going to see a lot more Apple related stuff.

 

[mercuryjones]

Again, though, we are in agreement; the Apple premium gets me a phone with an Apple on the back that's no less glitchy than phones costing much less. I'm not more forgiving of issues when I spend less money, but I'm LESS forgiving if I spend MORE money. I figure cheaper devices will have more issues, and I expect more expensive devices to have fewer issues. And if my expensive device is about the most expensive out there, I expect VERY few issues.

And you're absolutely right about the OnePlus price; but if they double the price, it's still 2/3 of iPhone 6 Plus. The hardware on the OnePlus looks pretty good. My son's getting one soon, and I'll get to play with it then. It's the first time in years I've thought seriously about not getting another iPhone.

No. Now, you are paying less, but on top of the buggy software, you get buggy hardware with less than stellar support. Just try and get the OnePlus taken care of in a decent amount of time.

It's your choice. I'm not agreeing with you at all.

 

[Melrose]

Well if your main source of news is MacRumors then obviously you're going to see a lot more Apple related stuff.

You mean there's more websites on the internet than MacRumors?! 0_o

 

[brianvictor7]

So it would seem.

That, and the fact they've both lost their visionary and then threw his work out of the window (software design-wise) means a dissatisfied long-time Apple customer (me).

That said, I do concede that I may be in the minority.

Switching back to Windows has become more attractive than ever, particularly with Windows X on the horizon.

Personally, I'm good with the look and feel of OS X and iOS under John Ivy. What I find frustrating is Apple's insistence on ignoring simple feature requests. Why is there no cut and paste of files in Finder after over a decade? Why will they not invest the time to make iWork a true competitor of MS Office? Why do I have to use Skype instead of Facetime to talk to my Android carrying family?

They are listening to some requests: I applaud Apple for finally making iMessage compatible with SMS on my Mac and for letting me call from my Mac. These are great features that I use on a regular basis now.

I'm not asking that Apple add every feature that every Tom Dick and Harry requests, but they miss on some serious basics in the name of, I can only guess, is catering to the lowest common denominator. There should an "advanced" suite of options for the power users tucked out of reach from those who are not interested in checking the preference menu.

My opinion.

 

[brianvictor7]

Nonsense. Its a marketing slogan. Everything does not 'just work.' In fact recently, its been worse than ever with both Yosemite and iOS 8 containing huge bugs. Forgiveable behaviour off a company such as Microsoft or Google who make their software for a wide range of hardware, but Apple only make their software for their own hardware. The amount of bugs experienced over the past few years has been a very clear demonstration that Apple's software is lazily written.

Windows runs so much better on a wider ranger of hardware. If I was Apple, I'd be embarrassed.

As a beta tester of Yosemite, I know what "buggy" verses "refined" now looks like. The first beta version of Yosemite had many issues and in the first few days I had sent up about a dozen feedback notices to Apple. They fixed almost all of them with the next version. Since then, I've seen very few bugs in Yosemite. I've lived through every software release since Snow Leopard. Apple does good work. It isn't always perfect, but I've been pleased overall.

 

[CEmajr]

Suppose an Apple product could do 20 things, and 95% worked. But you did all 20 things every time you used the product. So, every time you used it, something would not work. That's what's happening.

Apple releases software before it's ready. I used to look forward to new releases, but have learned from experience that they will be bug-ridden. By integrating different devices and OS's, the likelihood of issues grows geometrically. Apple's hitting the wall. And by the time they finally have things working smoothly, it's time for the next major upgrade and things that had been fixed are broken again.

One of these days, maybe it's already here, Android will be no more buggy than iOS. Since Android phones tend to be cheaper than iPhones, people will start to jump ship en masse. And since Apple relies on iOS for almost all its revenue, that will be a Very Bad Day in Cupertino.

While what you are saying could possibly happen, it would take a series of major catastrophic software failures for it to come to the point where Apple starts losing a massive number of users to competitors due to iOS. I mean something like mass phone bricking, hacking, security breaches, viruses, etc. over and over and highly publicized. A few apps crashing here and there or random restarts isn't nearly enough to do it. I think you're confusing the average consumer with the average Macrumors user. There was no massive loss of customers due to Maps, nor due to iOS 8.0.1. In fact, even more people bought iPhones and iPads.

As we've seen it's very hard for Android manufacturers to take users from iOS as opposed to the opposite, especially with the screen size differentiator having been erased. It's difficult to get iOS users to leave the ecosystem once they're in it and even with Maps and 8.0.1, it hasn't happened. Apple has yet to make a major iOS software error that costs them customers so for now I don't see it as a likely scenario.

 

[Lesser Evets]

... is the famous Apple mantra "Everything just works" relevant anymore... ?

BWAHA...

I've been with Apple since 1980, having started with the Apple ][+ on up.

Since going to the Mac around 1990, I've thought nothing ever works well on first releases for the company. It got even worse in the 2007-2012 span! Their OS X releases were getting so buggy and awful that I developed a personal agreement to NEVER download the new OS X until the .3 was released.

I think they have actually improved in the last 2 years! The newest OS X and iOS work quite well compared to past OSes which Apple released.

That mantra of "everything just works" might be referring to the old PC days when nothing worked on a PC. PCs were notorious time wasters due to incompatibility while Apple would track down and program in all the cameras and printers, etc., to work with their computers. I have no idea what PC life is like now, since that was so irritating that I got away from PCs as much as possible.

Anyway, you might be viewing the problems from a parochial view instead of a broader slice of history. Software will always be frustrating. It will never be perfect, unless the program is small and the programming thorough and the functions simple while the hardware doesn't upgrade.

 

[carlgo]

I buy Apple products and own AAPL, but the company can be annoyingly smug. The old Jobs idea that "we know what people want more than they do" is still pervasive there, as is "it just works".

This sort of thinking keeps them too insular and in denial about actual problems.

 

[tdale]

Nonsense. Its a marketing slogan. Everything does not 'just work.' In fact recently, its been worse than ever with both Yosemite and iOS 8 containing huge bugs. Forgiveable behaviour off a company such as Microsoft or Google who make their software for a wide range of hardware, but Apple only make their software for their own hardware. The amount of bugs experienced over the past few years has been a very clear demonstration that Apple's software is lazily written.

Windows runs so much better on a wider ranger of hardware. If I was Apple, I'd be embarrassed.

100% agree

USB3 issues, regular wifi issues, copy files on SMB issues. All of which are mature tech.

I use Apple rMBP, 5S, iPad Air, ATV, its great , well the look and integration is, but I KNOW that on my Win 7 laptop that I gave my wife, everything just works

 

[Bobby dazzler]

Not specific to Yosemite

Well I think Apple software is now more bugged up than before.

iOS8 however has worked better for me than iOS7 ever did which was by far the worst iOS I have ever experienced ever, ever, ever...!

Yosemite is crashing itself. My Mac shuts itself off and restarts all by itself.
...it's like there's a ghost in the room.

It's not the end of Apple, but it is beginning to annoy the dickens out of me and I'm beginning to detach from my Apple products...they are only beautiful if they work beautifully too.
...otherwise they're just a slab of annoying aluminium.

 

[Bahroo]

So "Everything Just Works" is a marketing slogan that has nothing to do with the actual end-user experience. The Apple faithful appear to be having trouble separating marketing hype from reality.

raw numbers don't lie my man, Apple tops the charts every single year in customer satisfaction and product reliablity and software reliability, beating the competition, it does "just work" and my 6 Plus works absolutely amazing and "just works"

 

[grahamperrin]

Products, and product launches, no longer work as they should

Is it normal to find so much detraction?

Are we seeing a post-"Everything just works"-Apple?

Yes. I'm certain.

… are we seeing a company getting to be too large to have the same quality control as before?

Apple is not too large to have good quality control. It does appear that quality control is poorer than when Apple was at its best, but that appearance is not a direct result of the size of the company.

In some other ways, Apple's growth in size has caused problems.

Not in any way, shape or form am I implying that Apple is doomed. …

Understood and agreed.

Yet another "Apple is doomed!" post. …

*Looks at his AAPL stock*

Oh yeah, doomed for sure.. Please keep the doomed course please..

Every time someone gushes about numbers, about market share, about profitability or whatever – in response to a complaint about degradation of software – there's another silent but sure swing of the sledgehammer at a pillar of something that Tim Cook reportedly holds dear.

… there are always people here claiming that every software update and new product is "the worst ever".

I'm not one of those people. OS X Yosemite is visually the worst Mac OS X.

… Snow Leopard had a bug that wiped all your data when you logged into the Guest account. Try finding a comparable issue with Yosemite. You can't. …

I found a bug that was comparable, potentially worse, in multiple versions of the operating system. I never bothered to test for it in Yosemite but if it exists, I can't disclose it here. Responsible disclosure. I would, as before, disclose it responsibly to Apple. Anecdotally I have seen something in MacRumors that suggests the existence of the bug in Yosemite. If so, then it has been disclosed publicly but not irresponsibly; I'm sure the poster didn't realise that he or she was describing a security problem.

Yes, we are seeing a post-"Everything just works"-Apple.

/thread

+1
to the "Yes". (I, too, was tempted to offer a one-word answer but I know from experience that such things may be moderated).

… Apple releases software before it's ready. …

Yes; things have become unacceptably rushed. I'll not attempt to pinpoint when the point of unacceptability began in any particular area within the company.

(I'm tempted to think that at least one area would have suffered when Steve Jobs began necessarily 'letting go' of that area, but that's too wild a guess. I don't think that the rushed products can, or should, be blamed on the presence or absence of any individual or group.)

Tag: speed, or something like that. And there must be a holistic explanation for products not working, for product launches not working as expected. It'll be for Apple to find that explanation, through internal discussion. I do expect that it'll be found, but I'll never expect to find the result in public.​

… I've been with Apple since 1980, having started with the Apple ][+ on up. …

I think they have actually improved in the last 2 years! The newest OS X and iOS …

I don't use any recent version of iOS.

From my point of view, using and managing many Macs since 1992, Yosemite is a dreadful departure from what people expect; it's nowhere near the best that Apple can do.

That mantra of "everything just works" might be referring to the old PC days when nothing worked on a PC. …

Related: the 2009 part of https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=20400431#post20400431

… Software will always be frustrating. It will never be perfect, unless the program is small and the programming thorough and the functions simple while the hardware doesn't upgrade.

There's not a plea for perfection.

There are pleas for acceptable quality, for acceptable appearance. for acceptable user experience (UX), and so on.

… the company can be annoyingly smug. The old Jobs idea that "we know what people want more than they do" is still pervasive there, as is "it just works".

This sort of thinking keeps them too insular and in denial about actual problems.

Yes and no. I'll elaborate on that, but not now. Probably in the 'looks terrible!' topic.

raw numbers don't lie my man, Apple tops the charts every single year in customer satisfaction and product reliablity and software reliability …

That's no longer true. It's possible to cherry pick things that paint an entirely rosy picture. It's increasingly easy to cherry pick things that paint a dismal picture.

Apple Computer, OS X®, iOS® and the Net Promoter® Score (NPS®)

I can cherry pick things from elsewhere. Apple's topping of charts is becoming flimsy.

Ask yourselves: why did Tim Cook feel the need to mention customer satisfaction?

 

[c-Row]

[...] the famous Apple mantra "Everything just works" [...]

With my 2009 iMac it was more like "Everything worked just a minute ago".

 

[grahamperrin]

Quote: "software has gone downhill at a rapid pace"

Recommended by a software engineer who spent thirteen years with Apple:

It Just Works | Rusty Rants (2014-10-01)

"… One phrase always kept me coming back for more: “It just works”. … Fast forward to today, 2014 …

… In short while Apple’s hardware continues to impress me, their software has gone downhill at a rapid pace. …

… Tim Cook keeps telling us that ‘Only Apple’ could do the amazing things it does. I just wish that Apple would slow down their breakneck pace and spend the time required to build stable software that their hardware so desperately needs. The yearly release cycles of OS X, iOS, iPhone & iPad are resulting in too many things seeing the light of day that aren’t finished yet. Perhaps the world wouldn’t let them, perhaps the expectations are now too high, but I’d kill for Snow iOS 8 and Snow Yosemite next year. I’m fairly confident I’m not alone in that feeling."​

 

[Tech198]

Everything just works

There we go

Apple's always had control, that's for certain, and will continue, although iOS 8.x is opening up slowly to third party keyboard, and the use of developers can now use TouchID with their apps make it all worth it.

However, it tool then 7 or so years to even see that, and still Tim Coo is still hanging on to the end of their rope dangling from a cliff. (edit: I should really stop action movies)

I wouldn't mind Apple "loosening their grip", but i think it only "just works" still, because its technically a closed system, with a small light of third party-ness at the end of the tunnel.

If it was like Windows, then it "just wouldn't work"

Good thing about Apple, you have less worry of things NOT working, since they supply the drivers, instead of 1000 other company's.

 

[roadbloc]

I've lived through every software release since Snow Leopard.

I've lived through every software release since OS 9. Trust me, Apple's software isn't all that brilliant anymore. And their software support is absolutely dire, the worst in existence.

 

[maflynn]

Apple for this, but with the launches of the last lines of products, and particularly the software (looking at you, iOS 8...), is the famous Apple mantra "Everything just works" relevant anymore

Everything just works is a marketing term, pure and simple.

I've been rocking with Apple since the Macintosh SE days and I can safely tell you, that was not the case. Just consider how classic OS handled extensions. Or how the G4 Powerbook had white spots due to a manufacturing defect. Then there was OS X 10.0 which was a buggy mess, and lets not forget Mobile Me or iTool's iDisk.

My point is Apple while worked towards perfection, they have laid their share of eggs.

As for iOS8, I'm largely happy with it.I guess I'm not using it in a way that exposes me to some of the bugs. Yosemite has been great and so far my rMBP is fine.