ARM based MacBook Pro discussion [merged]

[FastLaneJB]

You’ve brought to life what I think the 12” ARM MacBook could be for consumers - Apple would call it the iBook, bringing back that former name.

Owning a 15” 2-in-1 that I have only have unfortunately used in tablet mode only 2-3 times (way too heavy for that), I would love to see something like this from Apple. The 2-in-1 concept was what got me to buy it in the first place. If only it wasn’t 1)buggy in tablet mode, 2) too heavy to use freely as a tablet, and 3) well, it wasn’t an iOS tablet. Great laptop though with all the right specs. For me, I wouldn't need the 2-in-1 larger than 12-13” and of course, slim, light, and cool.

Apple could even offer a regular ARM notebook, then a 2-in-1 option ala Microsoft. iBook and iBook Air. It could be what’s coming for the Air since the market for the Air would be pretty much the same for this device - people who need more than iOS, but don’t needed sustained intensive performance. Interesting to see what Apple has in the works in the general consumer space with ARM.

Exactly, if they use ARM chips which are more battery efficient, they can reduce the size of the battery to lower the weight. It could be really quite slim and light, enough to make it workable. I'd expect it to be right up on the lighter side so it's workable. Think maybe just a bit more than an iPad with it's detachable keyboard.

It feels like they were laying the foundations for something like this and to try and make sure they get enough software for it by making it easier to bring iPad apps to Mac OS. Anytime Microsoft has tried to make these kind of items work they've always failed because of the lack of enough good applications. They are having another go with Windows 10X. I know Apple said they wouldn't add touchscreen to Mac OS in the past but I think it's a great form factor plus approach. Just no one has quite done it well enough yet but I trust Apple could do this well. They have the most successful tablet computer and OS so the apps are there already.

 

[Russell Ackoff]

I'm writing this post from my beloved 12" MacBook. I use it for everything, including photoshop, indesign and even a bit of Final Cut Pro X. I often have 12 applications running simultaneously. There's only one problem. When the processor heats up, which often can happen from small things like zooming around in Apple Maps too much in Satellite View, the pinwheel of wait shows up. In this way, it is unreliable. This is my theory on why the computer was put on hold (I'm an optimist here)

As everyone here must know, the reason this happens is that there is no fan and the processor is throttled based on temperature. It's unworthy successor, the 2018 Air, uses the same processor, but has a fan, and more battery to power the fan and the processor as heater, and therefore it 3/4 of a pound heavier.

Once Apple switches to ARM, the 5nm A-series processors will offer more power and less heat and my beautiful 12" form factor can return. It's the perfect trade-off: the smallest possible computer with a full sized keyboard, extremely thin and therefore also light. With the ARM, perhaps it can return.

But there is one other issue: thunderbolt3. Why didn't apple include thunderbolt3 in the previous MacBook? Was it also a heat or processor issue? Would two thunderbolt3 ports be possible in a 12" MacBook ARM format? Two ports would be extremely helpful as the USB-C doesn't have the bandwidth to do 4k/60hz video and USB3 at the same time. Power and video together often has problems as well through the same port.


And if only!

With ARM based MacOS coming, my next iPhone could also be my next MacMini. With USB-C, the new iPhone could be connected to a monitor w/keyboard/mouse/USB3/power charging included. How silly not to! It's all there now. And most likely being tested in Cupertino.

 

[Falhófnir]

I'm writing this post from my beloved 12" MacBook. I use it for everything, including photoshop, indesign and even a bit of Final Cut Pro X. I often have 12 applications running simultaneously. There's only one problem. When the processor heats up, which often can happen from small things like zooming around in Apple Maps too much in Satellite View, the pinwheel of wait shows up. In this way, it is unreliable. This is my theory on why the computer was put on hold (I'm an optimist here)

As everyone here must know, the reason this happens is that there is no fan and the processor is throttled based on temperature. It's unworthy successor, the 2018 Air, uses the same processor, but has a fan, and more battery to power the fan and the processor as heater, and therefore it 3/4 of a pound heavier.

Once Apple switches to ARM, the 5nm A-series processors will offer more power and less heat and my beautiful 12" form factor can return. It's the perfect trade-off: the smallest possible computer with a full sized keyboard, extremely thin and therefore also light. With the ARM, perhaps it can return.

But there is one other issue: thunderbolt3. Why didn't apple include thunderbolt3 in the previous MacBook? Was it also a heat or processor issue? Would two thunderbolt3 ports be possible in a 12" MacBook ARM format? Two ports would be extremely helpful as the USB-C doesn't have the bandwidth to do 4k/60hz video and USB3 at the same time. Power and video together often has problems as well through the same port.


And if only!

With ARM based MacOS coming, my next iPhone could also be my next MacMini. With USB-C, the new iPhone could be connected to a monitor w/keyboard/mouse/USB3/power charging included. How silly not to! It's all there now. And most likely being tested in Cupertino.

Hopefully they might squeeze a larger screen into the bargain as well, the bezels on the 12" are quite thick so they could probably fit an almost 13" display in if they pushed the screen right into the rounded corners like the iPad Pro - think that would feel like a true next-gen design like how they debuted the current aesthetic on the MacBook in 2015

 

[Macalicious2011]

What's the consumer benefit of an ARM-based Macbook?

A 128GB 12 inch iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard is as heavy and costly as an Air or base 13' MBP.?

After insulting MS for years, iPadOS with mouse support and the Magic Keyboard point to one thing: Macbook Air will become an ARM-Based Surface rival.

As others have mentioned it will for users that do light to moderate computing and rely heavily on cloud based apps.

The MBPs will likely remain Intel based until 2023 and be the last ones to make a switch over to ARM.

 

[BootLoxes]

A 128GB 12 inch iPad Pro with the Magic Keyboard is as heavy and costly as an Air or base 13' MBP.

The keyboard needed to be heavy to balance it out. An Air on ARM would be able to be slimmer and fanless which would decrease the weight

 

[sublunar]

The keyboard needed to be heavy to balance it out. An Air on ARM would be able to be slimmer and fanless which would decrease the weight

The weight (battery) on a laptop is under the keyboard, making it inherently more stable than an iPad + Magic Keyboard combination where the battery is under the screen.

Releasing a 'low power' iBook - ARM Macbook - in that classic configuration for people who need to type on the go is the perfect way to test the water for later, bigger releases.

The MBPs will likely remain Intel based until 2023 and be the last ones to make a switch over to ARM.

I would have said that all MacBook Pros were under more danger from ARM than any desktop first due to the proven mobile qualities of the iPads.

With ARM based MacOS coming, my next iPhone could also be my next MacMini. With USB-C, the new iPhone could be connected to a monitor w/keyboard/mouse/USB3/power charging included. How silly not to! It's all there now. And most likely being tested in Cupertino.

Patently Apple reports something that appears to be a Magic Keyboard for iPhone. It would be a very small keyboard unless the case configuration was flipped to landscape though. Something to look out for in the iPhone 12 Pro Max perhaps?

 

[Macalicious2011]

I would have said that all MacBook Pros were under more danger from ARM than any desktop first due to the proven mobile qualities of the iPads.

The Macbook Pros are professional products relied on by tens of thousands of businesses. Their priority is stability and reliability. They won't buy ARM laptops until they are proven reliable with and compatible with existing software.

Macbook Air was the first macbook with an SSD and to ditch a CD drive and various connectivity ports. It will likely be the first ARM based laptop.

With the change to ARM, hardware is easy but software will be a challenge as developers of widely used software and plugins need to be onboard.

 

[sublunar]

The Macbook Pros are professional products relied on by tens of thousands of businesses. Their priority is stability and reliability. They won't buy ARM laptops until they are proven reliable with and compatible with existing software.

Macbook Air was the first macbook with an SSD and to ditch a CD drive and various connectivity ports. It will likely be the first ARM based laptop.

With the change to ARM, hardware is easy but software will be a challenge as developers of widely used software and plugins need to be onboard.

The leaks suggest 12" Macbook (a device range currently not occupied in Apple's lineup) will be the first ARM Mac - I mooted it would be called iBook to differentiate it from Intel Macs. It's also the lineup that has least expectation on number of ports and heavy use - it's going to be a light use mobile word processing device for travellers.

As with the LIDAR array on the iPad Pro it will give developers a chance to port their existing apps before a bigger and more mainstream product arrives. You'd imagine that the MacBook Air would be next on the list and will be the machine that everyone has eyes on. The Air's Intel CPU is tuned for 10w TDP so it's probably not unreasonable to assume that an A14x would easily fit within that envelope.

It makes sense for Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro X, and iWork to be ported over and there will be other friendly Mac developers who would have prepared for this eventuality.

 

[thunng8]

The leaks suggest 12" Macbook (a device range currently not occupied in Apple's lineup) will be the first ARM Mac - I mooted it would be called iBook to differentiate it from Intel Macs. It's also the lineup that has least expectation on number of ports and heavy use - it's going to be a light use mobile word processing device for travellers.

As with the LIDAR array on the iPad Pro it will give developers a chance to port their existing apps before a bigger and more mainstream product arrives. You'd imagine that the MacBook Air would be next on the list and will be the machine that everyone has eyes on. The Air's Intel CPU is tuned for 10w TDP so it's probably not unreasonable to assume that an A14x would easily fit within that envelope.

It makes sense for Final Cut Pro X and Logic Pro X, and iWork to be ported over and there will be other friendly Mac developers who would have prepared for this eventuality.

It would be very strange to have the entry level 12 Inch MacBook with Arm processor to have more cpu performance than the top of the range 16 inch MacBook Pro though.

 

[Macalicious2011]

It would be very strange to have the entry level 12 Inch MacBook with Arm processor to have more cpu performance than the top of the range 16 inch MacBook Pro though.

Intel processors will continue to get more powerful. By CPU performance, is comparing ARM and Intel Processors like comparing apples to apples or is it like comparing a new gaming console against a gaming PC?

There is more to performance than Geekbench scores. iPads and iOS currently have sandboxed apps and file size limitations that MacOS does not have. Both tasks and background tasks run on Macbooks are more intensive than those run on iPad Pros.

What's exciting about ARM-Based laptops is that it will allow Apple to untether from Intel and have greater freedom in the lifecycle of their laptops. Furthermore, they can also incorporate chips for specific use cases such as machine learning, encryption or video editing.

 

[thunng8]

Intel processors will continue to get more powerful. By CPU performance, is comparing ARM and Intel Processors like comparing apples to apples or is it like comparing a new gaming console against a gaming PC?

There is more to performance than Geekbench scores. iPads and iOS currently have sandboxed apps and file size limitations that MacOS does not have. Both tasks and background tasks run on Macbooks are more intensive than those run on iPad Pros.

What's exciting about ARM-Based laptops is that it will allow Apple to untether from Intel and have greater freedom in the lifecycle of their laptops. Furthermore, they can also incorporate chips for specific use cases such as machine learning, encryption or video editing.

Nope. I am comparing both running macOS. There is nothing in iOS that will make it run benchmarks faster than macOS.

Intel has nothing up their sleeves this year. The next upgrade ( announced by Intel) to the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be medicocre with a few percent increase in performance while the rumoured Apple Arm chip for Mac will be a massive upgrade compared to the a12x.

It will be a slaughter in terms of general performance. Also like you said, Apple chips can have dedicated chips for specific use cases which makes it even faster for those cases.

 

[DanMan619]

Nope. I am comparing both running macOS. There is nothing in iOS that will make it run benchmarks faster than macOS.

Intel has nothing up their sleeves this year. The next upgrade ( announced by Intel) to the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be medicocre with a few percent increase in performance while the rumoured Apple Arm chip for Mac will be a massive upgrade compared to the a12x.

It will be a slaughter in terms of general performance. Also like you said, Apple chips can have dedicated chips for specific use cases which makes it even faster for those cases.

Yeah if anything, barring some huge unexpected leap from Intel, seeing ARM compete with what AMD is doing on the CPU front will be far more interesting over the next couple years. Intel is moving at a snails pace while AMD is like the road runner right now.

 

[UltimateSyn]

It could have ProMotion ?

 

[cullenl87]

It could have ProMotion ?

Oh baby I hope so. I’ve been using my iPad Pro with a keyboard and I can’t go back...

 

[DHagan4755]

I listened to the Gadget Cast tonight with guest Jon Prosser. Sounds like the ARM transition will be announced at WWDC. Also the next version of the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be getting ARM with mini LED next year. ?

 

[PeterJP]

I listened to the Gadget Cast tonight with guest Jon Prosser. Sounds like the ARM transition will be announced at WWDC. Also the next version of the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be getting ARM with mini LED next year. ?

Wow, the 16"? That's a surprise!

 

[subjonas]

I listened to the Gadget Cast tonight with guest Jon Prosser. Sounds like the ARM transition will be announced at WWDC. Also the next version of the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be getting ARM with mini LED next year. ?

Thanks for sharing. It was an interesting listen. I’m particularly intrigued about the ar glasses.
Prosser sounded very certain the arm transition is going to happen across the entire Mac line, all the way to Mac Pro. Super curious to hear Apple’s transition game plan at their announcement.

 

[Falhófnir]

Wow, the 16"? That's a surprise!

In some ways yes, though I had an idea Apple might want to get a real showcase machine out quickly to stop their Arm machines being pigeonholed as low performance devices - I think the leaked 12 core chip is also a clue pointing in this direction (we could maybe say it features octa-core performance cores, similar to the i9, and with another 4 power saving cores for efficiency?). Mini LED (HDR) and maybe ProMotion are a couple of goodies they can put in as an incentive for people to switch as well so this is quite a plausible move. I would probably expect the current Intel version to remain on sale alongside it for a while too, though could go either way with further updates?

 

[AFPBoy]

I listened to the Gadget Cast tonight with guest Jon Prosser. Sounds like the ARM transition will be announced at WWDC. Also the next version of the 16 inch MacBook Pro will be getting ARM with mini LED next year. ?

If that's going to be the case then I got my thinking completely wrong about the first ARM being a 12", not just to lower people's performance expectations and match usage (light browsing, email and Office apps), but also to release an ultraportable with a long battery life.

Two semi-random thoughts, was the battery life on a 12" ARM MacBook not that impressive and they upped it to 16" to increase it, or, and more likely, they don't want a 12" ARM MacBook to overlap with the larger iPads?

 

[DHagan4755]

Two semi-random thoughts, was the battery life on a 12" ARM MacBook not that impressive and they upped it to 16" to increase it, or, and more likely, they don't want a 12" ARM MacBook to overlap with the larger iPads?

From what was said, Apple's going all-in on ARM across the whole Mac line. Jon said it's not all happening at once... so my take was as soon as products are due for an update, they'll get ARM. As for the overlap equation, I don't think Apple's worried about that. They haven't seemed to mind cannibalizing one product for another in the past.

 

[AFPBoy]

From what was said, Apple's going all-in on ARM across the whole Mac line.

So the MacPro, eventually, as well?

 

[DanMan619]

From what was said, Apple's going all-in on ARM across the whole Mac line. Jon said it's not all happening at once... so my take was as soon as products are due for an update, they'll get ARM. As for the overlap equation, I don't think Apple's worried about that. They haven't seemed to mind cannibalizing one product for another in the past.

That's super interesting they're going to make the switch across multiple products that quickly. Seems like this will all be happening faster than i anticipated. Which i think has both upsides and downsides. Depending on how they handle x86 compatibility, i think the upsides will outweigh the downsides.

 

[nicho]

If going across the whole line, will this see a radical shift in price points and upgrade paths?

What’s interesting with the Axx line for iOS is that there’s just one each year for iPhones and it is identical whether you have an iPhone SE or 11 Pro Max. There are beefier variants for the iPad Pro’s but at the end of the day that’s still only two models.

What does that mean for the MacBook Air? Will it have the same processor as a Mac Pro? If it doesn’t, why can’t it? What would differentiate a macbook air from a 2TB 13” MacBook Pro if the processors came from the same family (with similar low power draws)?

Will the answer be more cores? “Last years processor” in the entry level model? (along the lines of, instead of continuing to sell the XR alongside the 11 what if Apple had just slotted an A12 into the 11 and had a cheaper less capable variant?)

 

[DHagan4755]

If going across the whole line, will this see a radical shift in price points and upgrade paths?

That's an interesting question. We don't know how Apple will striate the ARM processors. But I definitely see them being able to reduce the pricing on the higher end models quite significantly if they choose to do that, or they're gonna just take massive profit? Part of me wonders if they'll reduce the price to attract skeptical customers who aren't sure of the brawn of ARM vs. Intel.

But the questions are definitely:

• Will Apple be able to reduce the cost of the MacBook Air even further while making it faster than the Intel Y-series processors they've been using? (I'm thinking yes & I'm hoping they can get the MacBook Air down to the $699 price point to demolish the high end Chromebooks which are FAR less capable & don't seem to be improving.)
• Is Apple making a variation of ARM that's different than what's been used thus far in iPhones & iPads? (It seems like they are with reports of 12-core version.)
• Will Apple release products that need active cooling (fans) and how will that impact enclosure design, battery life, and cooling? (I'm thinking this is going to be the case.)
• I'm assuming that Apple will offer MacBook Pros with dedicated AMD graphics, like they are now, and in that case, how will that impact the cost of the higher end MacBook Pros? (If ARM processors are far less expensive, I'm thinking the 16-inch could at least start at $1,999.)
• Will the use of A-series processors allow for a thermal envelope to include dedicated AMD graphics on the smaller 14.1 inch model? (Oh wouldn't that be nice?!)
  • Will this be the differentiator in the current smaller MacBook Pro line-up pricing? (i.e. ARM graphics = less expensive model)
• Will Apple ramp up the beefiness of AMD graphics in the ARM MacBook Pros? (hmmmm)

 

[DanMan619]

That's an interesting question. We don't know how Apple will striate the ARM processors. But I definitely see them being able to reduce the pricing on the higher end models quite significantly if they choose to do that, or they're gonna just take massive profit? Part of me wonders if they'll reduce the price to attract skeptical customers who aren't sure of the brawn of ARM vs. Intel.

But the questions are definitely:

• Will Apple be able to reduce the cost of the MacBook Air even further while making it faster than the Intel Y-series processors they've been using? (I'm thinking yes & I'm hoping they can get the MacBook Air down to the $699 price point to demolish the high end Chromebooks which are FAR less capable & don't seem to be improving.)
• Is Apple making a variation of ARM that's different than what's been used thus far in iPhones & iPads? (It seems like they are with reports of 12-core version.)
• Will Apple release products that need active cooling (fans) and how will that impact enclosure design, battery life, and cooling? (I'm thinking this is going to be the case.)
• I'm assuming that Apple will offer MacBook Pros with dedicated AMD graphics, like they are now, and in that case, how will that impact the cost of the higher end MacBook Pros? (If ARM processors are far less expensive, I'm thinking the 16-inch could at least start at $1,999.)
• Will the use of A-series processors allow for a thermal envelope to include dedicated AMD graphics on the smaller 14.1 inch model? (Oh wouldn't that be nice?!)
  • Will this be the differentiator in the current smaller MacBook Pro line-up pricing? (i.e. ARM graphics = less expensive model)
• Will Apple ramp up the beefiness of AMD graphics in the ARM MacBook Pros? (hmmmm)

Going on the pricing bit. I really could see it going either way. I could maybe see Apple (especially with recent actions like having the 16" MBP replace the 15" in price and not have it be a jacked up Pro Premium product like they easily could have done) passing on the price savings to the customer, even if just a bit. Like you said they could use that lower pricing to lure in people to try ARM so that people taking a chance on an unproven chip won't be paying a premium to do so. However, i could also see Apple presenting confidently that ARM would be much greater in brute strength and efficiency over Intel. If they advertise/communicate/prove that effectively, people who need the power will be willing to pay more for it i would think. Plus with new tech like this getting introduced into a product, it usually starts high priced to make back the R&D dollars spent on it and then comes down in price later. It could go either way.