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Will the ARM Mac Pro be announced at WWDC 2023?

  • Yes

    Votes: 72 52.9%
  • No

    Votes: 64 47.1%

  • Total voters
    136

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
4,053
Tech Specs:

Six full-length PCI Express gen 4 slots
Two x16 slots
Four x8 slots

One half-length x4 PCI Express gen 3 slot with Apple I/O card installed

Curious where they get all those 64 lanes from. Unless the two x16 slots are not actually 16 lanes.

In the MP 2019 technical whitepaper on page 11


apple outlines the large majority of the slots are all being fed by a two input PCI-e switch . Apple might have implemented their own switch , decent chance they are doing same thing on this new model .
I am suspicious though that they are not running ‘ clean‘ x16 lanes from SoC to the two x16 slots . Pretty. good chance they have killed off what was slots 1 and 3 in the MP 2019 model .

The aggregate backhaul bandwidth of two x16 PCI-e v4 == four x16 PCI-e v3. So the aggregate would not be a backslide.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,493
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It's really lame that they keep comparing stuff to "Intel Macs". Those Macs were behind Intel PCs when they first came out.
Lame but entirely consistent . across all apple products Apple generally compares only to previous Apple products.

What is lame is using the W5500X as the baseline Intel Mac Pro to compare too on several benchmarks. ( those W6900x ones are likely highly cherry picked also ) .
 

JayKay514

macrumors regular
Feb 28, 2014
181
161
I'm curious - what might anyone actually install into an AS Mac Pro's PCIe slots? Is there any use case out there for this type of expandability?
Audio DSP cards (UAD and Avid) which are required for running plugins, 4k / 8k professional capture cards, clock sync, ADAT optical, all kinds of specialized i/o for things like the RME Hammerfall and other high-end audio interfaces, PCIE SSD carriers, you name it.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,520
19,670
What is lame is using the W5500X as the baseline Intel Mac Pro to compare too on several benchmarks. ( those W6900x ones are likely highly cherry picked also ) .

I have very little doubt that M2 Ultra is faster than W6900x. Even without any over locking it’s a 30TFLOPs GPU with 9216 compute ALUs. The W6900X has 5120. In fact, I’d almost expect the Ultra to outperform 7900XT in blender.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,520
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I noticed that too. And current intel processors are a LOT faster than those.

The M2 Ultra will easily match something like the new Xeon w7 2495X/3465X, maybe even getting close to w9 3475X. The Mac Pro with Ultra is by no means an exiting product, but it’s not like it’s a total disaster either performanc-wise.
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
The M2 Ultra will easily match something like the new Xeon w7 2495X/3465X, maybe even getting close to w9 3475X.
In what? It doesn't look like it would to me in general. (seeing it as 30-40% faster than an M1 ultra, those xeons are faster.)
The Mac Pro with Ultra is by no means an exiting product, but it’s not like it’s a total disaster either performanc-wise.
I agree, it's no slouch, but it's also not the fastest available.

But that's not what I was commenting on here, I was commenting that the 10th and before gen processors in those intel based Macs are very much outdone by later gen processors from intel...

I have no problem with the processor speed, but not so much in the expanditibility department.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,520
19,670
In what? It doesn't look like it would to me in general. (seeing it as 30-40% faster than an M1 ultra, those xeons are faster.)

Pretty much in anything I suppose? It's still 16 P-cores running at ~3Ghz... Apple's IPC is around 30-40% higher than Intel's, so you can extrapolate from that.

Of course, one can always cherry pick benchmarks, like picking some AVX512 workloads (or the old good Cinebench), but that's beside the point...
 

jujoje

macrumors regular
May 17, 2009
247
288
The M2 Ultra will easily match something like the new Xeon w7 2495X/3465X, maybe even getting close to w9 3475X. The Mac Pro with Ultra is by no means an exiting product, but it’s not like it’s a total disaster either performanc-wise.

Performance wise, any ideas what kind of region would that be AMD terms? (had a look on geek bench and the numbers, they were not helpful).

Had been vaguely eying a thread ripper pro with an Nvidia card, particularly if the studio didn't have raytracing, but the studio ultra is both $2k cheaper and I've had some very lacklustre results with Nvidia cards and OpenCL (an RTX 5000 was about the same as an 14" M1 Max 32 and a RTXA5000 bizarrely wasn't that much better).
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,520
19,670
Performance wise, any ideas what kind of region would that be AMD terms? (had a look on geek bench and the numbers, they were not helpful).

Judging by Geekbench, should be in the Ballpark of 32-core Threadripper Pro 5975WX multicore (and significantly faster in sing-core), although I am not sure that GB scores for these thread rippers are accurate. I'd expect them to be faster.

At any rate, M2 Ultra should outperform earlier 32-core Threadrippers. Whether this is also true for Zen3 I do not know.
 

jujoje

macrumors regular
May 17, 2009
247
288
Judging by Geekbench, should be in the Ballpark of 32-core Threadripper Pro 5975WX multicore (and significantly faster in sing-core), although I am not sure that GB scores for these thread rippers are accurate. I'd expect them to be faster.
Cheers for that! As you said, Geekbench is a bit dubious, but that region of performance would be pretty good, particularly for something in such a small form factor.

Have one of the older 32-core Threadrippers at work and it's pretty decent by and large, so a bit faster than that is good. Will probably wait for the reviews just to see if the scalings reasonable compared to the Max (from the benchmarks it looks like Apple have fixed the issue with GPU scaling, but guess we'll see).

It's kinda frustrating that, despite the a lot of the noise on these forums, the studio (and Mac Pro) are pretty well positioned compared to PCs. Makes purchasing decisions harder than they need be :)
 

Longplays

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May 30, 2023
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Is it a stopgap Mac Pro helping to transition a design to an Apple Silicon one?
With how poorly Mac Pros sold historically in terms of units and revenue I doubt a redesign one will appear that soon.

It is cheaper to just keep the 2019 case design until 2029ish.

But to be frank. Anywhere here going to upgrade their 2023 to a new case design just for the case design?
 

bobcomer

macrumors 601
May 18, 2015
4,949
3,699
Pretty much in anything I suppose? It's still 16 P-cores running at ~3Ghz... Apple's IPC is around 30-40% higher than Intel's, so you can extrapolate from that.

Of course, one can always cherry pick benchmarks, like picking some AVX512 workloads (or the old good Cinebench), but that's beside the point...
I'd have to put it in the category of I'll believe it when I see it, and I'm extremely skeptical I'll ever see it. But no matter, I'll never own an Ultra, it's just to costly for what you get. (for me and my workload, of course) I wouldn't buy those xeon's either, I'd buy an i9 unless it's a critical server.
 

playtech1

macrumors 6502a
Oct 10, 2014
695
889
Audio DSP cards (UAD and Avid) which are required for running plugins, 4k / 8k professional capture cards, clock sync, ADAT optical, all kinds of specialized i/o for things like the RME Hammerfall and other high-end audio interfaces, PCIE SSD carriers, you name it.
Thanks - so I guess it does have a market, albeit it also sounds from others like it loses that part of the market that needed a GPU in those slots.

My initial take on the new Mac Pro was that it was a disappointment: a low-effort rework of the Mac Studio, with PCIe slots that you can't even use for GPUs.

My morning after take is that the product itself is fine, it's the price that's the problem. It seems a bit of a rip-off to have to pay £3k over the Studio just to get six PCIe slots and blows away the original (fairly thin) justification for the high price - workstation grade components.

I think Apple may be missing out by not making this a £1k upgrade. At that level I could see a few Studio buyers 'future-proofing'. With a £3k cost differential it's just not worth it unless there is a very specific use case in mind.
 
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Boil

macrumors 68040
Oct 23, 2018
3,477
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Stargate Command
My morning after take is that the product itself is fine, it's the price that's the problem. It seems a bit of a rip-off to have to pay £3k over the Studio just to get six PCIe slots and blows away the original (fairly thin) justification for the high price - workstation grade components.

Larger chassis, larger PSU, larger logic board...
 

ectoplasmosis

macrumors member
May 14, 2012
31
46
Thanks - so I guess it does have a market, albeit it also sounds from others like it loses that part of the market that needed a GPU in those slots.

My initial take on the new Mac Pro was that it was a disappointment: a low-effort rework of the Mac Studio, with PCIe slots that you can't even use for GPUs.

My morning after take is that the product itself is fine, it's the price that's the problem. It seems a bit of a rip-off to have to pay £3k over the Studio just to get six PCIe slots and blows away the original (fairly thin) justification for the high price - workstation grade components.

I think Apple may be missing out by not making this a £1k upgrade. At that level I could see a few Studio buyers 'future-proofing'. With a £3k cost differential it's just not worth it unless there is a very specific use case in mind.

Why do you believe the £3K premium over a Mac Studio is a "rip-off"?

Do you know how much it costs to assemble a system based on Mac Studio and external PCIe chassis to support multiple PCIe cards?

Spoiler alert: it's much higher than £3K, and you are limited to 4-lane slots due to Thunderbolt.

If you need fully-fledged, full-bandwidth multi-card PCIe expansion along with Apple Silicon, the £7K cost is a no-brainer and a good value.
 

playtech1

macrumors 6502a
Oct 10, 2014
695
889
Why do you believe the £3K premium over a Mac Studio is a "rip-off"?

Do you know how much it costs to assemble a system based on Mac Studio and external PCIe chassis to support multiple PCIe cards?

Spoiler alert: it's much higher than £3K, and you are limited to 4-lane slots due to Thunderbolt.

If you need fully-fledged, full-bandwidth multi-card PCIe expansion along with Apple Silicon, the £7K cost is a no-brainer and a good value.
I think if Apple can sell you a full Mac Ultra system for £4k, selling the same product plus some PCIe expansion in a bigger case shouldn't cost another 75% of that.

After-market solutions may cost more, but that's not really apples to apples.
 
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jmho

macrumors 6502a
Jun 11, 2021
502
996
Why do you believe the £3K premium over a Mac Studio is a "rip-off"?
£3k for an incredibly beautiful and high quality chassis, PSU, cooling system, and PCI-e infrastructure would be a great deal if it didn't have an unremovable M2 Ultra welded on to it.

In 3 years time is anyone going to want an M2 Ultra Mac Pro? The people who need the absolute best today will be eyeing up an M4 Mac Pro, and people in the used market will just buy a second hand M2 Ultra Studio.
 

Longplays

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£3k for an incredibly beautiful and high quality chassis, PSU, cooling system, and PCI-e infrastructure would be a great deal if it didn't have an unremovable M2 Ultra welded on to it.

In 3 years time is anyone going to want an M2 Ultra Mac Pro? The people who need the absolute best today will be eyeing up an M4 Mac Pro, and people in the used market will just buy a second hand M2 Ultra Studio.
Apple noticed that Macs tend to get replaced every 4 years. So a 3 year upgrade cycle's a bit... too fast considering it takes 19.5 months for Apple to move to the next chip line.
 

falainber

macrumors 68040
Mar 16, 2016
3,539
4,136
Wild West
Larger chassis, larger PSU, larger logic board...
Obviously, we have no idea how Apple prices their components but using component prices fromPC world:
Larger chassis: +$100
Larger PSU: +$100
Better motherboard: this one varies a lot and may go pretty high (say, +$800) but that's for overclocking features which Apple does not do.
 

Longplays

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Obviously, we have no idea how Apple prices their components but using component prices fromPC world:
Larger chassis: +$100
Larger PSU: +$100
Better motherboard: this one varies a lot and may go pretty high (say, +$800) but that's for overclocking features which Apple does not do.
Prices & differences

iMac Pro base model

- 2017: $5k

Mac Pro base model

- 2019: $6k
- 2023: $7k

Mac Studio Ultra model

- 2021: $4k
- 2023: $4k

Pricing is based on

- Forecasted economies of scale
- R&D cost
- Bill of Materials
- Logistics cost
- Shipping cost based on weight and dimension of shipping box

100% 2019 & 2023 Mac Pro will sell worse than any Mac Studio.
 

falainber

macrumors 68040
Mar 16, 2016
3,539
4,136
Wild West
Prices & differences

iMac Pro base model

- 2017: $5k

Mac Pro base model

- 2019: $6k
- 2023: $7k

Mac Studio Ultra model

- 2021: $4k
- 2023: $4k

Pricing is based on

- Forecasted economies of scale
- R&D cost
- Bill of Materials
- Logistics cost
- Shipping cost based on weight and dimension of shipping box

100% 2019 & 2023 Mac Pro will sell worse than any Mac Studio.
So, what you are saying is that Apple business model for Macs (especially desktops) is not viable. They have way lower volumes than their PC counterparts (in part due to specialization among the PC component vendors) thus guaranteeing that Macs will always be way more expensive (and not because of better technical specs or quality)
 
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Longplays

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So, what you are saying is that Apple business model for Macs (especially desktops) is not viable. They have way lower volumes than their PC counterparts (in part due to specialization among the PC component vendors) thus guaranteeing that Macs will always be way more expensive (and not because of better technical specs or quality)
That's one way to look at it.

How else to explain 2013 Mac Pro, 2019 Mac Pro and 2023 Mac Pros very long replacement cycles?

When Apple was designing Apple Silicon chips they looked at the typical use cases of their current user base and what are the next big things that would benefit from acceleration.

Hopefully this translates to better sales in the future with the margins they want.

Over time these change so that what were design priorities in the past are now niches that diminishes over time to the point that it isn't worth servicing anymore.

At which point Apple is willing to let other businesses service them.

Everyone threatening to leave over certain features that were omitted are expected to leave by Apple not because they want them to but because they're too expensive to cater to relative to the revenue they bring in.

So say feature Y is used by less than 1 of 5 users but when Apple just ignores that need it means a higher than 20% ROI then I think it is worth doing resulting in a significant increase in net revenue.

Like say video and photo editing Apple Silicon excels in that based on the number of benchmarks being used.

But when it comes to top end scientific computing that requires more than 192GB memory then are there equal or more scientists than video & photo editors?

That is when you question if customer S's very peculiar requirements worth the R&D resources over a customer VP?
 
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