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TheRealAlex

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Sep 2, 2015
2,982
2,248
Will a first Gen ARM based MacBook Pro Surpasss and Outperform the previous Intel based Version ? I’m gonna say No.

It May have Longer battery life, it will have WiFi 6 (intentionally left out of current gen) It May be less expensively But will it be “Faster”

Heck they can go from LPDDR4 to LPDDR5 RAM today by switching to ARM.

i feel like the link below we are getting clowned by the Swicth ti ARM, which won’t have critical support for Windows Boot Camp installations for Gaming or support for an eGPU.

 

ericwn

macrumors G5
Apr 24, 2016
12,114
10,906
We don’t know. There will certainly be incentives to buy the new hardware, and battery life on a portable will likely have higher priority than performance, but we shall see.

If you don’t like the Macs on offer, don’t buy them and get a PC instead.
 

JohnnyGo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 9, 2009
957
620
The new MacBooks will blow away Intel Macs.

Performance for Safari and other first tier apps will be fantastic.

Other apps, that will rely on Rosetta 2 for 1-2 years before they’re updated, will have performance on or or slightly better than current Macs.

If you need bootcamp or gaming, you may buy the Intel Macs that are still on sale
 

Simoleon547

macrumors member
May 25, 2014
85
51
This is the same complaint computer science neophytes said in 2015. Apple needed to do this years ago. People are just delusional because they think Intel is a good chip-designer when they’re really in 3rd place. Behind AMD in 2nd, which is behind Apple’s microarchitecture design abilities in 1st. Apple’s chips were comparable architectures to Intel’s back with the A6 or A7 chips.
Apple’s chips surpassed Intel’s in performance-per-watt and maximum capable performance years ago. The only thing I worry about is them skimping on how many cores they put in it. I’m pretty sure they could put 12 high performance cores and 4 high efficiency cores in it and with that it’d be pushing beyond the capabilities of their iMacs. But reports are they’re only doing 8 high performance and 4 high efficiency cores in the first chip for the 12” macbook. I’d like them to have a performance option.

Regardless, if they clock their macbook chips with 3+ghz turbo they’ll obliterate intel’s chips. And they can do that because a laptop has much better heat dissipation and battery capacity than an iPhone or iPad.

the most exciting possibilities are when the do a multi-chip package for desktops with fans. They’ll have the multicore capabilities of massively powerful chips in a TDP using half the watts and making half the heat. Plus, it’ll be cheaper to make. Probably would use pci-express 4.0 or 5.0 as the chip-to-chip interconnect.
 

Ma2k5

macrumors 68030
Dec 21, 2012
2,565
2,541
London
WiFi 6 wasn’t intentionally left out, Apple don’t use 2x2 WiFi cards, only 3x3 and some could argue a WiFi 5 3x3 can be better than a WiFi 6 2x2 in some use cases. 3x3 WiFi card availability was very late (and in unknown quantities) so missed being part of MacBooks.
 

jazz1

Contributor
Aug 19, 2002
4,674
19,761
Mid-West USA
It will not be an overpriced netbook. That would be a disaster for Apple, a company that tries to produce products that are good at doing things. Expect Apple Silicon to outperform Intel at the same power consumption.

Agreed! Even Apple can’t afford to simply change Intel to ARM without showing decent performance upgrades/increased battery life. I know, I know, there has to be some kind of balance between performance and battery life. But, wouldn’t it be sweet if Apple hit a home run and gave us the ability to have greater performance and increased battery life? And, for non- battery operated Apple computers even better maximize performance. For me, I’d even sacrifice “lower price” for the best performance. But that is just my “IMHO”. Others may have different priorities.
 

Tekguy0

macrumors 6502
Jan 19, 2020
306
361
Agreed! Even Apple can’t afford to simply change Intel to ARM without showing decent performance upgrades/increased battery life. I know, I know, there has to be some kind of balance between performance and battery life. But, wouldn’t it be sweet if Apple hit a home run and gave us the ability to have greater performance and increased battery life?
That is the ultimate goal of the switch.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
I wrote a lot more but I think I'll make it brief:
Intel is barely getting to 10nm manufacturing process.
AMD needed to get to 7nm (Ryzen 2) to beat Intel's 14nm chips.
Apple has been on 7nm for ages. TSMC is teasing 5nm.

My money would be on Intel because they have more potential for growth than both Apple or AMD.

And even then, that's just the CPU side. On the GPU side, I highly doubt Apple will be able to match the performance levels of nVidia and AMD.

So with that said, I'd realistically think that the first MacBook with ARM will be the Air... and it's basically testing ground to see how people will react to loss of x86 compatibility. The Pro-level machines like the 16" and Mac Pro will probably stay on Intel until TSMC can churn out chips with their 5nm process.

Also, reminder to iPad Pro users: I'm not sure if you have seen it, but I regular see my iPad Pro throttling its performance pretty significantly when charging or when under high load (processing raw photos). I'd expect that the upcoming MacBook Air with the same chip will also run into the same problem. A fan can only get so far when there is no heatsink...
 

bluecoast

macrumors 68020
Nov 7, 2017
2,256
2,673
I think that the first AS notebook will be what the intel MacBook was trying to be - a consumer portable for light productivity and casual gaming with insane battery life. For some, that will make it a netbook.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,517
19,664
My money would be on Intel because they have more potential for growth than both Apple or AMD.

Why do you think so? Apple has much more money to invest into R&D, they have the talent, and the development pace of their hardware in the last couple of years has been mind-numbing to say the least. Intel didn’t achieve much progress in last 5 years - except possibly their new GPU which does look nice. Willow Cove so far seems to disappoint.

And even then, that's just the CPU side. On the GPU side, I highly doubt Apple will be able to match the performance levels of nVidia and AMD.

The big uncertainty comes from the fact that the largest GPU Apple ever made is a 10-watt or so 8 core A12Z (estimated 512 “shader cores”). But that GPU matches a contemporary Nvidia dedicated GPU with TDP of 50Watts. Extrapolating from A12Z benchmarks and assuming linear scaling, Apple GPU tech is at least as good as competitors in compute tasks and significantly better in graphics. Scaled up to 40 cores at 50 watts and with fast RAM to match the A12 GPU would outperform 100W+ Nvidia GPUs.
 

StumpyBloke

macrumors 603
Apr 21, 2012
5,614
6,330
England
@TheRealAlex
Is this your third thread on the same topic, it's hard to keep count?

It would be nice if you stopped though, or at least stopped regurgitating.

:rolleyes:

That’s what he does. All the time: Creates these potentially contentious posts, lights the touch paper and runs, never to be seen again until he creates a new thread. Sadly, he is well known for it now.
 

bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Why do you think so? Apple has much more money to invest into R&D, they have the talent, and the development pace of their hardware in the last couple of years has been mind-numbing to say the least. Intel didn’t achieve much progress in last 5 years - except possibly their new GPU which does look nice. Willow Cove so far seems to disappoint.

Again, Intel is 2 manufacturing processes behind both Apple and AMD. Apple and AMD have shrunken their manufacturing processes that far. Physics dictate that you can only shrink your die so much before you hit a brick wall.

So Intel has more room to grow here. Both Apple and AMD will eventually get to a point where they can't shrink the die so much anymore.

Apple may have amazing engineers but they can't break physics.

The big uncertainty comes from the fact that the largest GPU Apple ever made is a 10-watt or so 8 core A12Z (estimated 512 “shader cores”). But that GPU matches a contemporary Nvidia dedicated GPU with TDP of 50Watts. Extrapolating from A12Z benchmarks and assuming linear scaling, Apple GPU tech is at least as good as competitors in compute tasks and significantly better in graphics. Scaled up to 40 cores at 50 watts and with fast RAM to match the A12 GPU would outperform 100W+ Nvidia GPUs.

8 cores is not twice as fast as 4 cores. Heck, 4 cores is not twice as fast as 2 cores.

So performance scaling is definitely not linear, realistically.

And A12Z does NOT match any contemporary GPU with 50W. I'm not sure where you are pulling that from, but this is obvious if you compare the iPad Pro against the 16" MacBook. The AMD Radeon 5300M/5500M/5600M in the 16" MacBook are rated at 50W. I sincerely doubt A12Z is able to catch up. It can barely handle simplistic graphics at the native resolution of the iPad. CAD software on the iPad Pro is a sub par experience, if I have to be polite. At best, Apple is slightly exceeding Intel's integrated graphics but that doesn't say much.

I honestly think you and many others are too excited about what Apple can achieve with their chips. I'll err on the cautious side, because it's obvious that the move to ARM will mostly benefit only Apple: they'll have more control over the platforms.

If Apple was confident about performance, they would not need 2 years to transition, nor would they need to introduce more Intel-based Macs. The fact is: Apple still has to introduce Intel-based Macs. For how long, we have no idea. But the fact is: Apple knows they cannot completely usurp Intel performance at the higher end of the spectrum. The iMac, the 16" MacBook and the Mac Pro will likely have to wait until TSMC can produce 5nm chips reliably.
 

jerryk

macrumors 604
Nov 3, 2011
7,421
4,208
SF Bay Area
If you are using an external GPU for gaming get a windows deskside machine. That will turn out to be considerably cheaper in the long run and let you insert what every new card Nvidia or AMD produces within days of its shipping. That is what I do and things like FS2020 are smooth as butter even at high fidelity settings. Can't wait to see what it looks like when I replace the RTX 2070 with a RTX 3070 or 3080 next month.
 
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leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,517
19,664
Again, Intel is 2 manufacturing processes behind both Apple and AMD. Apple and AMD have shrunken their manufacturing processes that far. Physics dictate that you can only shrink your die so much before you hit a brick wall.

Process is only part of the equation. Architecture is another one. We will need to wait for real-world benchmarks of Tiger Lake, but so far, it doesn't seem to be a major leap over it's Skylake-based predecessors.

Besides, "10nm", "7nm" is just marketing. Intel's 10nm is roughly comparable to TSMC 7nm.

8 cores is not twice as fast as 4 cores. Heck, 4 cores is not twice as fast as 2 cores.

So performance scaling is definitely not linear, realistically.

I think that linear scaling is a good enough assumption as own as one doesn't take it too far. My reasoning is as follows: we are talking about relatively "low" levels of performance here (if you compare to large desktop flagships), we can assume that both graphics and compute workloads are embarrassingly parallel and essentially "limitless" compared to the GPU capability, so scaling up the processing units will linearly reduce the processing time. This is further supported by benchmarks (look around, you will find that A12Z GPU is pretty much exactly twice as fast as A12 etc.).


And A12Z does NOT match any contemporary GPU with 50W.

It's performance is very close to it's contemporary Nvidia 1050 GTX (Pascal) according to gaming benchmarks. Let's not forget that A12 is a 2 years old design by now. If you want to compare it to modern architectures, it's probably a bit slower than the 1650 Max-Q (35W Turing). And it's faster than AMD integrated graphics, although Intel Tiger Lake will likely change the equation now.


I honestly think you and many others are too excited about what Apple can achieve with their chips.

I am simply extrapolating from existing benchmarks. I'd say that the data is encouraging. For example, if we look at compute benchmarks, the A12Z is somewhere around 3 times slower than the Navi 5500M (that's a 1536 ALU part), at around 1/5 power consumption. And that's compute, where it's just shader cores vs shader cores. In graphics A12Z has a major advantage since it's rendering approach is inherently more efficient.

One argument you might bring is that Apple GPUs so far have been designed t operate at the lower end of the power consumption spectrum and therefore their ability to scale is not proven. This is absolutely correct. That is why I am very curious to see first Apple Macs.

If Apple was confident about performance, they would not need 2 years to transition, nor would they need to introduce more Intel-based Macs. The fact is: Apple still has to introduce Intel-based Macs. For how long, we have no idea. But the fact is: Apple knows they cannot completely usurp Intel performance at the higher end of the spectrum. The iMac, the 16" MacBook and the Mac Pro will likely have to wait until TSMC can produce 5nm chips reliably.

If Apple were not confident about the performance, they wouldn't announce any transition whatsoever. I think we are in perfect agreement that Apple does not have chips ready to compete with higher-end mobile, and their desktop strategy is completely unknown at this point. The message they are sending is clear however: they are confident that they are going to beat any alternatives by the end of a two year period.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
Process is only part of the equation. Architecture is another one. We will need to wait for real-world benchmarks of Tiger Lake, but so far, it doesn't seem to be a major leap over it's Skylake-based predecessors.

Besides, "10nm", "7nm" is just marketing. Intel's 10nm is roughly comparable to TSMC 7nm.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say by stating it's "just marketing". 10nm and 7nm are hard physical measurements. You can't fudge your numbers to say 7 is equal 10. That's not how it works.

I think that linear scaling is a good enough assumption as own as one doesn't take it too far. My reasoning is as follows: we are talking about relatively "low" levels of performance here (if you compare to large desktop flagships), we can assume that both graphics and compute workloads are embarrassingly parallel and essentially "limitless" compared to the GPU capability, so scaling up the processing units will linearly reduce the processing time. This is further supported by benchmarks (look around, you will find that A12Z GPU is pretty much exactly twice as fast as A12 etc.).

And reality shows that linear scaling is not how it works. There is no assumption with regards to scaling. Twice the core count just doesn't equate to twice the performance. That only happens in an ideal model, and real world is not ideal.

The problem is not parallelism, but that there is no way to estimate the "weight" of a workload, so a linear distribution system just doesn't work. For instance, for a GPU, you can definitely segment rendering workload into sections of a frame and have them all execute in parallel, but certain sections will definitely render faster than others (say, if you're just rendering a background in one section versus in another section where you have to render models + shaders + background). So performance is more dependent on how efficient your scheduler is versus how many processing units you have. And you can't make a scheduler parallel. There's a reason why RTX 3080 with twice the core count can only achieve at most a 80% performance boost over 2080.

It's performance is very close to it's contemporary Nvidia 1050 GTX (Pascal) according to gaming benchmarks. Let's not forget that A12 is a 2 years old design by now. If you want to compare it to modern architectures, it's probably a bit slower than the 1650 Max-Q (35W Turing). And it's faster than AMD integrated graphics, although Intel Tiger Lake will likely change the equation now.

I am simply extrapolating from existing benchmarks. I'd say that the data is encouraging. For example, if we look at compute benchmarks, the A12Z is somewhere around 3 times slower than the Navi 5500M (that's a 1536 ALU part), at around 1/5 power consumption. And that's compute, where it's just shader cores vs shader cores. In graphics A12Z has a major advantage since it's rendering approach is inherently more efficient.

We have had a fair amount of discussion on why benchmarks across architecture and platform are not reliable, so I think that part is basically up to interpretation. But let's just say A12Z is not as fast as Navi 5500M, and the 5500M is going to be usurped by Navi 2 for sure.

One argument you might bring is that Apple GPUs so far have been designed t operate at the lower end of the power consumption spectrum and therefore their ability to scale is not proven. This is absolutely correct. That is why I am very curious to see first Apple Macs.

Well, again, scaling is not truly linear. The reality is that Apple may end up with the same power consumption and thermal profile as AMD's last generation chip if they want to achieve the same level of performance. And even that would be an achievement in and of itself if they can reach it. In reality, I'd say both AMD and nVidia have been at the game far longer than Apple, and it shows even on the software side.

Apple's Metal API is nowhere near the maturity needed for efficiency and performance as Vulkan or OpenGL, for instance. The most one can say about Metal is... well, it gives Apple more control, and it requires less effort from developers, but that's about it.

Let's say I'm more skeptical that Apple can just do it.

If Apple were not confident about the performance, they wouldn't announce any transition whatsoever. I think we are in perfect agreement that Apple does not have chips ready to compete with higher-end mobile, and their desktop strategy is completely unknown at this point. The message they are sending is clear however: they are confident that they are going to beat any alternatives by the end of a two year period.

Well, Apple is already showing signs of intentionally throttling performance of Intel-based MacBooks (there's a very long 16" MacBook thread here on that, then there's a thread on the heatsink for the 2020 Air). So in the end, they can at least say that their Apple Silicon matches the performance of their Intel counterparts (under heavily thermal-throttled scenarios) and give much better battery life. That tactic is very obvious now to those of us who have had the chance to "sample" the 16" MacBook and the Air.

And I'd think even if they weren't confident in performance, they'll do it anyways for these reasons:

1. It gives them complete control over the hardware platform
2. More profit margins
3. They can bake in planned obsolescence and nobody can do anything about it
4. Mac OS will only work on Apple's hardware (no more Hackintosh)

There are only upsides for Apple. The downsides (performance, less control, less ownership, less software, etc...) are only on the customers' side. There literally is zero reason why Apple should not announce the transition. Even if performance is not up to par, it's not like it's the first time Apple has introduced a MacBook that doesn't perform well (read: MacBook 12" from 2015, 15" from 2016 to 2019).

As a software developer, Apple's approach is increasingly discouraging me from considering their platform as a main workhorse. I used to love Mac computers for their efficiency, reliability, and cross-platform compatibility (I can write my software on a Mac and deploy it to everything else). One of those reasons is now gone, and the other 2 are unknown, with only efficiency being the promise. Reliability has been very questionable ever since Catalina.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
Will a first Gen ARM based MacBook Pro Surpasss and Outperform the previous Intel based Version ? I’m gonna say No.

I’m gonna say yes.

If they don’t, then what’s the point?*


* I know its over-simplification in the extreme, but among the potential benefits of this, improved performance is bound to be one of them.
 
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bill-p

macrumors 68030
Jul 23, 2011
2,929
1,589
If they don’t, then what’s the point?

Improved battery life in a fanless design. Apple alluded to this point in their presentation.

In fact, it's only the enthusiasts who are claiming Apple Silicon will provide better performance. I'm pretty sure Apple themselves only promised better efficiency, so... more battery life, less heat, less fan noise.
 
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RobbieTT

macrumors 6502a
Apr 3, 2010
576
830
United Kingdom
That’s what he does. All the time: Creates these potentially contentious posts, lights the touch paper and runs, never to be seen again until he creates a new thread. Sadly, he is well known for it now.

Yet people are still having a debate, despite the dubious motives of the original poster. The cycle continues and the OP scores another childish victory.
 
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SkiHound2

macrumors 6502
Jul 15, 2018
458
377
Unless there are some Apple insiders here I don't think any of us can do much more than offer wild ass guestimates. My GUESS is that the initial offerings will run Apple optimized software really efficiently. The current iPad Pros are pretty dang fast when running optimized software, and they do it using way less power and generating way less heat. We've already seen some of that with the way the T2 chip handles certain tasks very efficiently in current Macs. I'd also guess there will be some growing pains during the transition. Some software may run slowly, some may not run at all, and even software that has been converted may include or fail to include features we've come to expect in current versions. I use some fairly specialized software for work and don't expect to see ARM based versions for quite some time. I'll wait for others to see how well they run in emulation under Rosetta. I'm also going to guess that the ARM based Macbooks we all want will be the 2nd generation, or at least not the earliest releases.
 

ascender

macrumors 603
Dec 8, 2005
5,021
2,897
Improved battery life in a fanless design. Apple alluded to this point in their presentation.

In fact, it's only the enthusiasts who are claiming Apple Silicon will provide better performance. I'm pretty sure Apple themselves only promised better efficiency, so... more battery life, less heat, less fan noise.

That sounds like you’re describing a new Macbook.

Given the relative performance of the iPhone and iPad chips to the current intel-based Mac laptops, I’d be amazed if the new laptops aren’t faster than the current ones in single and multi-core.

Was there not a graph in the presentation which also alluded to, or could be extrapolated up to the reasonable assumption that as well as low power & fanless, there would also be more powerful designs (with fans?).
 
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