Would you not be able to cross compile on arm64 just as you would on x86-64 or do you mean having to account for both instruction sets now?
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ARM MacBook Pro I don’t want an Overpriced Netbook.
- Thread starter TheRealAlex
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This should be a equivalent of the developer A12X mini Mac ported to a petite 12 laptop form, only now based from the sufficiently faster A14X ARM. Compatibly you have a 6 core 3.2 GHz i7 the most expensive option for a 2020 Mac Mini. If you incorporate the ARM I don’t see any problem of it besting the Intel performance and value comparably.
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I say: let Apple take this risk. For the greater part of a decade, Apple has under-wowed us (me for sure) because of Timmy's cautionary leadership. Failure often forces greatness, so even if they fail to deliver, I'm optimistic that this return to risk will lead to higher rewards down the road.
That IS how it works. "7 nm" and "10 nm" are just names of the processes that have no basis on "how good" a process is. They might not even correspond to any physical distance in the process whatsoever. It's pure marketing.
If there’s one thing I can take for granted, it's the cost. It’s going to be expensive, not the other way around.
The numbers don't actually represent any "hard physical measurement", they are basically a commercial name for different generations of technology nodes.
This should be a equivalent of the developer A12X mini Mac ported to a petite 12 laptop form, only now based from the sufficiently faster A14X ARM. Compatibly you have a 6 core 3.2 GHz i7 the most expensive option for a 2020 Mac Mini. If you incorporate the ARM I don’t see any problem of it besting the Intel performance and value comparably.
Yes, this is a beginning step for Apple for the Mac computer. Will it get better yes it will but it is not going to be overnight. I have a 2019 MacBook Pro 16 with 2TB storage and 32gb of ram will hold me for a couple of years of use. Then will trade it in like I do my iPhones and iPads and upgrade to the new model. I don't keep computers now beyond 4 years with technology changes and lack of upgrading. Which is fine with me because I get to use a powerful computers for 4 years, then trade it in at a Apple store and put the money to a new Mac and use my Apple Card to pay for it over a year.
It's hard to say for sure, but the synthetic benchmarks suggest that you can expect performance similar to a Core i5 U series processor. One thing to keep in mind is that the iPad is completely passively cooled, but what would happen if Apple equips its latest ARM with adequate cooling? There's a lot of possibilities, and I doubt that Apple would decide to transition to their in house silicon if the performance couldn't meet what you'd find on the Intel side of things.
It's either that Apple ARM is getting very close to Intel performance, so they can start implementing it on something like a MacBook Air or maybe the performance matches or exceeds what you find on Intel at this time. I feel like it's going to be a gradual process, much like Microsoft did with the Surface Pro X.
It's either that Apple ARM is getting very close to Intel performance, so they can start implementing it on something like a MacBook Air or maybe the performance matches or exceeds what you find on Intel at this time. I feel like it's going to be a gradual process, much like Microsoft did with the Surface Pro X.
Actually the A13 is performant at bit of a higher level than a Core i7 8565U. The A12Z seems to be performant on a per core basis with both Intel and AMDs current offerings. So I would expect the Apple Silicon for Macs to come in and be either king of the hill or in the ballagame for it while also being at a lower TDP.
There is a model for every level of the market. I once owned a Mac Pro 2009. It was a great machine. But over the life because it sat at home my guess that I only used about 25% of its capability and life over the 10 years that I had it because I worked out of the house. I decided that I was no longer keep a computer for 10 years that cost $6000 but get a good MacBook Pro that cost $3000 and upgrade every 4 to 5 years. It is the same over all cost and If I wanted to take it out of the house I could so I got a 2019 MacBook Pro 16 and I love it, almost to a Mac Pro and it is beautiful but can not take it with me if I want to go to the library, friends house or to work. I have a iPhone and a iPad but I use the MacBook a lot more with a 32in Samsung Odyssey 7 240 htz, full size keyboard, and I have a Razer EGPU box that works great with the MacBook Pro 16. So I am going to get a Radeon Navi 2 RX6000 card and graphics are going to be amazing on the MacBook Pro 16. So I got my cake and I am eating it too.
Boy I can't wait until ASi Macs are finally released to shut these guys up.
30% of what? They'd lose 100% of their users. Again, the conspiracy theory that Apple's going to lock the Mac to the App Store doesn't hold up to scrutiny.
It's likely not the primary purpose of it, sometimes it's nice to have one machine that does many things well, even if it's not ideal.
There's a few misconceptions about the MBP here. While the intel versions, if you pay up, come with the AMD RX5300 or above, its a laptop so gaming really won't be as good as a traditional desktop. It will work, but don't expect 4k 60FPS by any means.
ARM gaming is really taking off. Look at what iOS, Android, and Nintendo Switch currently offer - the games run on ARM architecture. If you look at the Xbox 360, GameCube, Nintendo DS, 3DS, PS3, etc. they all used ARM or PPC architecture - different from Intel - while having integration with, generally, AMD Chipsets. Switch has Nvidia, 3DS I believe use PICA, etc. So while you may be concerned about gaming, its up to developers to take advantage of the hardware they're given.
Let's move to the MBP. Imagine if it had dual-cpu A14X. Let's say the A14X has a 2/6 (2 efficiency core, 6 performance cores) x 2 ~ 4/12 (16 cores). Couple that with 16GB of RAM, Apple's amazing GPU - heck maybe AMD is develop a GPU to work with ARM (Samsung + AMD -> https://www.techspot.com/news/85098-amd-samsung-rdna-based-mobile-gpu-hammers-galaxy.html) so it's not out of the question.
What about what the MBP really means - a pro workstation. Given that the A12 was beating, in raw performance, Intel's Core Series CPUs - a mobile CPU (A12) was beating out Intel Core desktop CPUs (i5) in raw performance, read that again slowly, then you're looking at one powerful machine. Couple that with all-day battery life and you're living in a dream world. A large battery that can sustain large workloads, be performant, and is capable of doing gaming - if programmers develop for it - I don't see the issue.
You won't have Windows, so what? Get a PC if you want Windows. If you want BootCamp, get a new MBP, configure it up and keep it for 3-4 years while the rest of the ARM stuff is leveling the playing field for computers.
Chromebooks, Raspberry Pis, Windows 10 on ARM (Surface Pro X) - all either have or can use some form of ARM architecture.
I hate to say it, but I think x86's days are numbered now. I give it 5 years before x86 slowly sinks to being the low-end market chipset or legacy chip. I really see ARM taking over. Unless Intel and AMD can do something to make the TDP significantly lower while increasing performance (IPC), then x86 is a sinking ship.
With all of that said, if you're wanting to hop on the ARM wagon but don't know about this first iteration, wait for Gen 2 to release. Gen 1 there will be some struggles with apps, performance, battery, etc. as the ecosystem evolves and shifts into this new era of computing.
ARM gaming is really taking off. Look at what iOS, Android, and Nintendo Switch currently offer - the games run on ARM architecture. If you look at the Xbox 360, GameCube, Nintendo DS, 3DS, PS3, etc. they all used ARM or PPC architecture - different from Intel - while having integration with, generally, AMD Chipsets. Switch has Nvidia, 3DS I believe use PICA, etc. So while you may be concerned about gaming, its up to developers to take advantage of the hardware they're given.
Let's move to the MBP. Imagine if it had dual-cpu A14X. Let's say the A14X has a 2/6 (2 efficiency core, 6 performance cores) x 2 ~ 4/12 (16 cores). Couple that with 16GB of RAM, Apple's amazing GPU - heck maybe AMD is develop a GPU to work with ARM (Samsung + AMD -> https://www.techspot.com/news/85098-amd-samsung-rdna-based-mobile-gpu-hammers-galaxy.html) so it's not out of the question.
What about what the MBP really means - a pro workstation. Given that the A12 was beating, in raw performance, Intel's Core Series CPUs - a mobile CPU (A12) was beating out Intel Core desktop CPUs (i5) in raw performance, read that again slowly, then you're looking at one powerful machine. Couple that with all-day battery life and you're living in a dream world. A large battery that can sustain large workloads, be performant, and is capable of doing gaming - if programmers develop for it - I don't see the issue.
You won't have Windows, so what? Get a PC if you want Windows. If you want BootCamp, get a new MBP, configure it up and keep it for 3-4 years while the rest of the ARM stuff is leveling the playing field for computers.
Chromebooks, Raspberry Pis, Windows 10 on ARM (Surface Pro X) - all either have or can use some form of ARM architecture.
I hate to say it, but I think x86's days are numbered now. I give it 5 years before x86 slowly sinks to being the low-end market chipset or legacy chip. I really see ARM taking over. Unless Intel and AMD can do something to make the TDP significantly lower while increasing performance (IPC), then x86 is a sinking ship.
With all of that said, if you're wanting to hop on the ARM wagon but don't know about this first iteration, wait for Gen 2 to release. Gen 1 there will be some struggles with apps, performance, battery, etc. as the ecosystem evolves and shifts into this new era of computing.
That's a pretty big claim I'd say. I'm willing to bet that ARM and x86 CPUs will be trading blows for at least another decade.
The big question is whether new CPU manufacturers will show up with ARM designs for laptops and desktops. Apple won't sell their chips to anyone, and if no other players show up to the high-performance CPU market then x86 is the only way to go.
There's also the elephant in the room that is the capacity to fab the chips. TSMC, the most advanced manufacturer has finite capacity, Intel can't seem to move past 14nm significantly and the only other manufactuers I can think of are Samsung and Global Foundries, the latter isn't really better than Intel. Samsung shows promise since the new NVidia cards are manufactured on their 8nm node. But that's not as good as TSMC's 7nm, and Apple Silicon will debut on TSMC 5nm.
It's stuff like this makes it a truly exciting time. Everything's up in the air right now.
Look, I'm not all doom and gloom, but let's wait until they come out and we have benchmarks.
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"Critical support for Windows Boot Camp installations for gaming or support for an eGPU"? If Windows Boot Camp support is "critical" to you, then why are you here? Why would you not move to a Windows desktop or gaming laptop at this point?
No one is getting clowned, Apple is simply going in a different direction. You can either get on the ride or get off. I don't think Apple has been unclear about what they're doing. If your needs are truly dependent on Intel, then you need to make up your mind about moving to Windows 10 and commit.
AMD is already doing ARM - I think their Operton line has ARM chips in its line-up, then there's this: https://www.techspot.com/news/85453-leak-shows-amd-ryzen-c7-soc-smartphones-impressive.html
The Ryzen C7 SoC. So AMD I'm not worried about. Lisa Su has done an amazing job to keep AMD moving and pushing the envelop.
ARM's new X1 CPU could even out the playing field with Apple, but I think Apple has a strong lead for the next couple years with TMSC - https://www.androidauthority.com/arm-cortex-x1-cortex-a78-1119666/
Finally, this is very exciting. For those of us old enough to remember it's been a cat and mouse game with Intel and AMD - back and forth, back and forth.
Just remember, the world's fastest super computer is currently an ARM based computer. https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/23/...puter-worlds-fastest-top500-riken-fujitsu-arm
I know that's not an apples to apples comparison, but it is a reminder that ARM based processors are not just for low powered mobile devices.
I know that's not an apples to apples comparison, but it is a reminder that ARM based processors are not just for low powered mobile devices.
He said gaming. ? Because people run to game on Intel Macs now.... said no one ever.
Everyone getting super stoked for Apple Silicon Macs really needs to temper their enthusiasm or risk getting severely disappointed. First Gen ASi Macs are going to be very familiar devices that are going to borrow heavily from existing designs to get them out the door and provide a stable period of transition for most users. This is by design and not because Tim Apple is cheap. There has to be a solid continuation of what exists before any subsequent designs start diverging.
You should expect the following -
- Wi-Fi 6 or 6E
- BT 5.2
- LPDDR5 (HBM is too expensive, but who knows)
- NVMe 1.4a (PCIe 4.0 speeds)
- P3 displays all the way around - we should be at the point where Apple can do this.
- USB4 (USB-C ports only)
I think Apple will start at 8c at the base, but I wouldn't expect any sort of hyper-threading (SMT) or Turbo Boost/Thermal Velocity Boost shenanigans. macOS and Apple's own apps are going to be the benchmark of how good or bad things are. The uptake of Apple Silicon compiled apps is going to be interesting considering Apple has provided the tools and we should see a good numbers of apps right out of the gate with iOS apps providing a stopgap while developers catch up.
You should expect the following -
- Wi-Fi 6 or 6E
- BT 5.2
- LPDDR5 (HBM is too expensive, but who knows)
- NVMe 1.4a (PCIe 4.0 speeds)
- P3 displays all the way around - we should be at the point where Apple can do this.
- USB4 (USB-C ports only)
I think Apple will start at 8c at the base, but I wouldn't expect any sort of hyper-threading (SMT) or Turbo Boost/Thermal Velocity Boost shenanigans. macOS and Apple's own apps are going to be the benchmark of how good or bad things are. The uptake of Apple Silicon compiled apps is going to be interesting considering Apple has provided the tools and we should see a good numbers of apps right out of the gate with iOS apps providing a stopgap while developers catch up.
I don’t know, but I was really impressed by the 4K capability during the announcement of the Apple Silicon Macs. Remember it was handling three streams of simultaneous 4K Pro Res video in Final Cut Pro?
From the experience of moving from a Motorola 68040 to a Motorola 604e to an Intel 3rd generation i7, I'd say that each switch showed me a lot more power.
The transitions weren't exactly easy or smooth, but things became better.
I doubt we'll ever see any netbook-like performance, unless it's in the x86 simulation.
The transitions weren't exactly easy or smooth, but things became better.
I doubt we'll ever see any netbook-like performance, unless it's in the x86 simulation.
If we get specs like these in a 13” MBP, why would anyone be disappointed? What you describe will have performance comparable to the 16” model.
P.S. They don’t need SMT (their CPUs already has high ILP as is), and they are using turbo boost, just with a much smaller range than Intel.
Not necessarily disagreeing with your main point, but you keep mentioning the 5nm thing like it isn’t already happening. Why are you doing that? The A14 in the iPhone is on the 5nm process, in reliable mass production right now. As is the A14X destined for the next iPad Pro and a variant based on the A14X for the first ASi MB/MBA/MBP.
It is probably more about the SoC scaling and packaging that will be the challenge for the more powerful Macs that pack a dGPU in their current Intel forms than what process they are on.
There is a model for every level of the market. I once owned a Mac Pro 2009. It was a great machine. But over the life because it sat at home my guess that I only used about 25% of its capability and life over the 10 years that I had it because I worked out of the house. I decided that I was no longer keep a computer for 10 years that cost $6000 but get a good MacBook Pro that cost $3000 and upgrade every 4 to 5 years. It is the same over all cost and If I wanted to take it out of the house I could so I got a 2019 MacBook Pro 16 and I love it, almost to a Mac Pro and it is beautiful but can not take it with me if I want to go to the library, friends house or to work. I have a iPhone and a iPad but I use the MacBook a lot more with a 32in Samsung Odyssey 7 240 htz, full size keyboard, and I have a Razer EGPU box that works great with the MacBook Pro 16. So I am going to get a Radeon Navi 2 RX6000 card and graphics are going to be amazing on the MacBook Pro 16. So I got my cake and I am eating it too.
Did you try an RTX card in bootcamp by any chance with your MBP 16? Is more stable and faster......
I put my same cards I use as an egpu in a desktop and the performance difference was very noticeable.
Egpu is still a compromise, but if you are happy, all good, however I don’t think you are going to see those performance gains in Navi 2 through a cable that limits the data already.