ARM: Why!?

[eoblaed]

I would just like to clarify that when I started this thread, ARM was still just a rumor. I feel like it makes my tone sound a bit different now that it is a fact.

I’m still not sure how I feel about this, but I’m definitely open to at least looking at benchmarks when the new models are actually released.

When I first heard the rumors months ago, I too was skeptical. I know what the Apple/ARM track record has been with mobile devices (they crush everything out there), but was that going to scale to desktop class use cases? After seeing the demos and how smooth it looked and felt, along with their discussion on scaling, performance, power, etc, I'm actually excited to see what the new machines will be able to do.

Their universal + rosetta 2 approach looks pretty comprehensive as well, and I'm especially pumped at the idea that developers can make apps that run natively, out of the box, on both MacOS and iOS.

I think it's a good move.

 

[shapesinaframe]

A lot of people seem to (incorrectly) believe that it means they’ll be able to just magically run iOS/iPadOS apps.

Aged like milk ?

iPhone and iPad Apps Coming to Macs With Apple Silicon, Developers Can Manage Availability in App Store Connect

Apple today shared a video with more details about the availability of iPhone and iPad apps on future Macs with custom Apple processors. Macs with...

www.macrumors.com

 

[lJoSquaredl]

What do you game with now?

2016 MBP, anything I play it runs just fine.

 

[jerwin]

2016 MBP, anything I play it runs just fine.

Ever played Subnautica? It's really buggy on my mac, but runs nicely on my windows partition.

 

[lJoSquaredl]

Ever played Subnautica? It's really buggy on my mac, but runs nicely on my windows partition.

Nope, I mostly play League of Legends which can run smoothly on a potato.

 

[Stephen.R]

Aged like milk ?

iPhone and iPad Apps Coming to Macs With Apple Silicon, Developers Can Manage Availability in App Store Connect

Apple today shared a video with more details about the availability of iPhone and iPad apps on future Macs with custom Apple processors. Macs with...

www.macrumors.com

Yes, apple has/will add(ed) the ability for apps built around the iOS frameworks to run in Big Sur, on Arm hardware. But you realise that this is not just some "magic for free" by nature of running ARM CPUS? It still requires a heap of extra bits in the OS layer for them to run.

 

[the8thark]

It's a very Trumpian move.

You don't know Tim Cook. Tim prides himself of doing everything in every aspect of his life different to what Trump would do.

If Apple didn't change things up they'd still be using a modern variant of a 68k Mac with an optimised disk technology for media (think 500GB zip disk or similar). Progress has to happen. Creative destruction so to speak. Destroy the old to make way for the new. The only fools out there are the people who don't plan for this.

No software we buy will last for decade after decade as usable on modern Macs. Will you get enough use of it for the cost over it's expected lifetime? That's the important queston.
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Popcorn time. It's fun to see something new instead of the same-old players of Nvidia, AMD and Intel.

This could be the kick up the @$$ that Intel, NVIDIA and AMD need. Good competition is always a nice way to fix the problem of complacency.

 

[zulugod]

Performance Per Watt.

The #1 reason to move to ARM.

 

[stevenaaus]

Performance Per Watt.

The #1 reason to move to ARM.

Ummm... No. As other people have said, Cook is just a shareholder/money man.What Romanof said

Ok. Let me say this from 50 years in the computer business (When I started as a young engineer, the IBM 360 ruled the world.) Big companies are run to please stockholders.

The problem is, short term profits can often spell the demise of companies, and this may be the end of macOS for serious users. No more virtualisation.. no more backward compatability, poor gaming performance.

Cook's macOS only cares about the dollar bottom line, and is scr*wing itself into oblivion.
The desperately poor quality of Catalina is testament to this, and of course the hardware debacles buring people left, right and center.

Serious desktop users and graphics/music professionals do not want the bug-ridden iOS wannabe operating system that Cook is fixated on.

 

[audiomatt]

You don't know Tim Cook. Tim prides himself of doing everything in every aspect of his life different to what Trump would do.

If Apple didn't change things up they'd still be using a modern variant of a 68k Mac with an optimised disk technology for media (think 500GB zip disk or similar). Progress has to happen. Creative destruction so to speak. Destroy the old to make way for the new. The only fools out there are the people who don't plan for this.

No software we buy will last for decade after decade as usable on modern Macs. Will you get enough use of it for the cost over it's expected lifetime? That's the important queston.
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This could be the kick up the @$$ that Intel, NVIDIA and AMD need. Good competition is always a nice way to fix the problem of complacency.

It’s isolationist is the point. Banning windows from the computers is isolationist. And if it doesn’t run Windows it’s a step back.

And that’s coming from someone who doesn’t even run Windows. The was a gigantic influx of web developers when boot camp came along.

You will lose those people quick let then you think. They’re not going to buy two machines in a recession.
you do know Tim Cook???

 

[Stephen.R]

The was a gigantic influx of web developers when boot camp came along.

Web developers had no choice but to support IE6 when Bootcamp came along.

 

[audiomatt]

Web developers had no choice but to support IE6 when Bootcamp came along.

they had a choice of which machine to buy. And they bought a mac and made the transition. They said “holy ****! I can run Windows and OSX on the same machine?”

now they’re presented with a new choice: which platform do I use? They aren’t going to stay.

 

[the8thark]

you do know Tim Cook???

Just as much as every one of the millions of people who are interested in Apple as a company. How he operates the company and acts as CEO is on display for all to see.

Also Apple are very aware of this situation. I believe they think the benefits of ARM outweigh this need (of a minority) to have Windows access on their Mac.

 

[Stephen.R]

they had a choice of which machine to buy. And they bought a mac and made the transition. They said “holy ****! I can run Windows and OSX on the same machine?”

now they’re presented with a new choice: which platform do I use? They aren’t going to stay.

You've missed the point, entirely.

In 2006, a web developer using zero "Microsoft tech" (i.e. .net, or IIS or what have you) still needed a Windows PC "available" to test the product, in MSIE6. It was (a) the "market leader" and (b) only available on Windows.

In 2020, a web developer using zero "Microsoft tech" (i.e. .net, or IIS or what have you) probably doesn't need to test in IE11 or "legacy" Edge (before it switched to being chrome by Microsoft) due to low usage numbers, and generally better compatibility anyway.

In 2021/2022 when it will really be time to make a decision, there'll be even less reason to need a Windows PC just for browser testing.

 

[LeeW]

It’s isolationist is the point. Banning windows from the computers is isolationist. And if it doesn’t run Windows it’s a step back.

Have they banned it or is it just that it does not work yet or does it work using a VM and they just chose not to show it? Clearly Windows cannot function under Bootcamp but that is a given.

 

[leman]

The previous migrations made sense because Apple was leaving behind technologies that had reached their end of life (680X0, Mac OS Classic, and PowerPC). In my opinion, Intel processors still have excellent performance and a bright future. They also seem to be very popular with developers. I just don't understand why we would abandon them now.

The A12 running at 2.5Ghz is more or less a match for a Skylake running at 3.5ghz at 1/4 power consumption. If these CPUs scale half as well as what Apple claims, their hardware already outperforms anything that Intel or AMD have to offer. Apple's GPUs are incredibly performant as well — the iPad Pro GPU matches the performance of lower-mid-range gaming GPUs at 1/6 power consumption. Again, if it scales, you can have something like RTX 2070 in sub 40W package. Add to it all the little things Apple could do if not restricted by others (on-die stacked RAM, ML accelerators, ...) and the potential should become clear.

The fact is, Mac is currently stagnating. It does not offer excellent value anymore, as the rest of PC market has more or less caught up. Mac laptops used to offer very good performance for media creation for example — but these days you are better off with getting a cheaper Windows gaming laptop.

I believe that the move to its own hardware is an attempt to retake the top. In one of the WWDC videos for example they demonstrated what they can do for example by pairing their hardware with a ML accelerator — you get real-time AI-driven region selection during high-res video editing. This is not something anyone else can hope to catch up to any time soon. And it seems that Apple is fairly confident about this. It is a big risk — but the potential payoff is insanely huge.

 

[dsmush]

I think a lot of the people who are overly excited for ARM Macs are more casual users. x86 is the gold standard so unless they plan to manufacture 2 Macs an ARM and x86 based one then they are going lose a lot of customers. By all means bring ARM to the Air and non Pro models but people don't buy laptops to just run mobile apps they want to get stuff done. Will the future of ARM mean all software must come through their App store (giving them a cut of the profit)?

 

[leman]

I think a lot of the people who are overly excited for ARM Macs are more casual users. x86 is the gold standard so unless they plan to manufacture 2 Macs an ARM and x86 based one then they are going lose a lot of customers. By all means bring ARM to the Air and non Pro models but people don't buy laptops to just run mobile apps they want to get stuff done.

But that’s exactly the point. What would your average photo editor do when a 13” MBP suddenly runs Photoshop much better than the large PC? That’s what Apple is going for.

 

[dsmush]

But that’s exactly the point. What would your average photo editor do when a 13” MBP suddenly runs Photoshop much better than the large PC? That’s what Apple is going for.

Photoshop runs fine but Apple could put better components in their Pro line if they weren't so focussed on aesthetics.

 

[leman]

Photoshop runs fine but Apple could put better components in their Pro line if they weren't so focussed on aesthetics.

Well, that’s why they seem to be transitioning to ARM. Because using fastest available x86 CPUs is not sufficient (if I understand your comment correctly).

 

[Stephen.R]

but people don't buy laptops to just run mobile apps

The vast, vast majority of software that was already available for Intel Macs, can be re-compiled for Arm Macs. Yes there are some exceptions, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that the vast majority of software can be recompiled for Arm CPUs.

Will the future of ARM mean all software must come through their App store (giving them a cut of the profit)?

No? Literally nothing about distribution or installation of native Mac apps changes with Big Sur.

 

[dsmush]

Well, that’s why they seem to be transitioning to ARM. Because using fastest available x86 CPUs is not sufficient (if I understand your comment correctly).

It is sufficient though its just Apple runs into thermal issues because they are too focussed on slim and sleek these days.

 

[maflynn]

The vast, vast majority of software that was already available for Intel Macs, can be re-compiled for Arm Macs. Yes there are some exceptions, but I'm not exaggerating when I say that the vast majority of software can be recompiled for Arm CPUs.

Its not if they can be compiled, but rather how much work is needed to alter the source code so it compiles cleanly and/or the application runs as expected. I think a few days for an app may be an overly rosie estimate that Apple made, but by the same token, I'm not a developer and it could be that simple. I think there will be a decent amount of apps though that will require more intensive work then just a few days - just my unscientific opinion

 

[Stephen.R]

Its not if they can be compiled, but rather how much work is needed to alter the source code so it compiles cleanly and/or the application runs as expected. I think a few days for an app may be an overly rosie estimate that Apple made, but by the same token, I'm not a developer and it could be that simple. I think there will be a decent amount of apps though that will require more intensive work then just a few days - just my unscientific opinion

I am a developer, but my experience with native macOS apps is just barely above nil, so this is my understanding of the situation and I'd welcome the insight of someone who is more experienced in this area.

Most apps should have very little CPU specific code in them - Apple have been banging on about their Frameworks and *Kits to provide high level access to functionality since before the Intel switch - for specifically this reason.

 

[leman]

Its not if they can be compiled, but rather how much work is needed to alter the source code so it compiles cleanly and/or the application runs as expected. I think a few days for an app may be an overly rosie estimate that Apple made, but by the same token, I'm not a developer and it could be that simple. I think there will be a decent amount of apps though that will require more intensive work then just a few days - just my unscientific opinion

The most Problematic cases will be code that uses fine-tuned optimizations to maximize performance. These could be CPU-specific instructions or patterns, but it could also be more subtle. The switch to ARM could expose bugs in original code that just happened to be running well on Intel. But for software that is well-written and has good test coverage, porting should be simple, in most cases.
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It is sufficient though its just Apple runs into thermal issues because they are too focussed on slim and sleek these days.

They run into ”thermal issues“ because Intel is trying to squeeze more and more performance from a 4 year old chip, rebranding it as “new” every single year. Also, what are you even talking about? The 16” runs these hot Cofee Lakes just as well if not better than any other laptop out there.