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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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780
I've now deleted everything on my Amazon Cloud Drive, and asked for a full refund. They're going to cost me a week of my life waiting to upload the data to the new host, so that's the least they can do for me. I did not need this extra work and time-waste right now. :\

Edit: See summary of what happened to Amazon and where to go next, in the last two posts of the previous page. I'm taking the actions mentioned at the bottom of the last post. But please don't ask me anything more because I won't check this thread and don't have email notifications. I've written down everything I know on the previous page. Good luck, everybody!

Edit 2: They gave me a full refund within a few hours, no questions asked. So you should all ask for refunds (via the "Send Feedback" link on your account page's menu), if you are also unhappy with this pricing change and are going to leave ACD too. Seems like they'd rather do a full refund than argue with customers.
 
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campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
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I got the same email - from a NY'er, a hearty and juicy Bronx Cheer! I posted a short notification thread in the Buying Advice Forum about ACS. Yeah, it's those that abuse the system that blah, blah, blah… I never beat up my account but I can see ACS became a target just like MS did when they offered UL data options with OneDrive. But, while I'm here and writing about OneDrive - you missed one option (shhhh, it's the middle one!):
https://products.office.com/en-us/onedrive-for-business/compare-onedrive-for-business-plans
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
But, while I'm here and writing about OneDrive - you missed one option (shhhh, it's the middle one!):
https://products.office.com/en-us/onedrive-for-business/compare-onedrive-for-business-plans

Hey I came back to say that Amazon refunded my whole sum, no questions asked.

As for OneDrive: Hover over the button with the "!" symbol next to "Unlimited storage" and it says: "Unlimited OneDrive storage for subscriptions of five or more users. Microsoft will provide initial 5 TB of OneDrive storage per user. Customers who want additional OneDrive storage can request it as needed by contacting Microsoft support. Subscriptions for less than five users receive 1 TB OneDrive storage per user."

Basically: 1 user ($10 month) = 1 TB storage. If you have at least 5 users ($50 month) = 5 TB per user. If you want more than that you have to ask Microsoft for it as-needed, and must have at least 5 users. So no, it's not a viable unlimited option.

But anyway, I will never again buy into anyone selling unlimited storage, because the stupid DataHoarders I linked to on the previous page will just destroy it again. They're already swarming to Google's GSuite loophole and will definitely soon force that one to close down too. :\

I've now signed up to Backblaze B2 Cloud Storage. Now I'm just waiting for the release of Arq's official B2 support. But I'm sure it's going to be awesome. The speed test was much better than Amazon, and I'll end up paying a bit less than I paid at Amazon for my current storage needs. And this time, since I am paying per GB now, I'm going to avoid backing up replaceable content, which means my backup will only be about 600 GB ($3 per month).
 
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campyguy

macrumors 68040
Mar 21, 2014
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Hey I came back to say that Amazon refunded my whole sum, no questions asked.

As for OneDrive: Hover over the button with the "!" symbol next to "Unlimited storage" and it says: "Unlimited OneDrive storage for subscriptions of five or more users. Microsoft will provide initial 5 TB of OneDrive storage per user. Customers who want additional OneDrive storage can request it as needed by contacting Microsoft support. Subscriptions for less than five users receive 1 TB OneDrive storage per user."

Basically: 1 user ($10 month) = 1 TB storage. If you have at least 5 users ($50 month) = 5 TB per user. If you want more than that you have to ask Microsoft for it as-needed, and must have at least 5 users. So no, it's not a viable unlimited option.

But anyway, I will never again buy into anyone selling unlimited storage, because the stupid DataHoarders I linked to on the previous page will just destroy it again. They're already swarming to Google's GSuite loophole and will definitely soon force that one to close down too. :\

I've now signed up to Backblaze B2 Cloud Storage. Haven't yet gotten the Arq beta for use with it. But I'm sure it's going to be awesome. The speed test was much better than Amazon, and I'll end up paying a bit less than I paid at Amazon for my current storage needs. And this time, since I am paying per GB now, I'm going to avoid backing up replaceable content, which means my backup will only be about 600 GB ($3 per month).
My bad, I've got 7 users on my end (for the 3 businesses I own/run and the one I'm about to start up). I made a request a bigger data "bucket" and it's pretty much UL on my end. Not sure what you were needing on your end IMO knowledge of more options is a good thing?

And, you're right about the hoarders. Almost every company I've worked with or for has had to bust an IT person for stashing and distributing pr0n on local servers or something like this, going back to the late 80s at university…

I've moved to S3 for my personal usage now and likely do the same with my businesses after my commitment to OneDrive for Business is up later this year - it just works. Good luck with BackBlaze, I've never tried them out. Report back, I've been watching this thread whether I post or not!
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
@campyguy Hehe. OneDrive is basically $10 per 1 TB, which is twice the cost of Amazon Cloud Drive's new expensive $5 per 1 TB pricing.

The idea would be to find cheaper, not pricier. ;)

I think Backblaze B2 will be great. I ran their speedtest and it beats Amazon Cloud Drive by a lot.

Backblaze has been in business for over a decade and they store hundreds of petabytes of data. It should work very nicely. Arq's customers trying B2 seem very happy so far on twitter. ;)
 
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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
The full Amazon Cloud Drive refund has reached my account today, 2 days later. I highly recommend asking for refunds if anyone else is going to leave them due to the pricing change. I've even closed my Amazon account completely and won't do any more business with them.

And my B2 account is ready for use, as soon as Arq's stable release of Backblaze B2 compatibility is released (hopefully sometime this month).

I've now read that B2 can be used from Europe with great speeds too, as long as you use a multi-threaded upload client. Multiple connection threads means that your connection can always keep sending data while waiting for the "ping/ack" to come back for other threads. And Arq is multi-threaded. So it should definitely be able to hit good speeds even for European users. For example, a Swedish user got like 5 Mbit upload when sending to B2 single-threaded, but got 50 Mbit upload when using multiple upload threads. So European users have nothing to worry about since Arq is multi-threaded.

Also notice that B2 is the same price as Amazon Cloud Drive per terabyte, but with the benefit that you only pay for the EXACT amount of storage you use. So 600 GB is $3/month at B2 but $5/month at Amazon Cloud Drive. You pay for restores, but not very much (see my post on the previous page), and it's usually free for small casual restores since they give you 1 GB of free download per day.

I also learned that B2 has very impressive data protection. They run a full hash on everything they receive and store on disk, and verify that they have received it correctly. Then they calculate Reed-Solomon parity (the same thing used in PAR2 files; those familiar with Usenet know how magical that is!). And then they periodically check all stored data to make sure all hashes still match. If any file has become corrupted, they repair it via the parity data. So really, Backblaze is a very safe storage system. They have blog posts about the great lengths they go to ensuring data integrity, for example: https://www.backblaze.com/blog/vault-cloud-storage-architecture/ and https://www.backblaze.com/blog/reed-solomon/.

Good luck everybody. I won't be active in this thread anymore. Perhaps I'll be back later when I have set up B2 in the next Arq release. But I anticipate zero troubles since they have had lots of beta testers for it.
 
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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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A friend of mine got an email an hour ago:

"We're not accepting more beta testers right now, sorry. We'll ship B2 support very soon."

So there's not much waiting left until the next official Arq update with stable B2 support.
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
Today, Arq 5.9 was released.

Adds support for two new providers: Backblaze B2 and Wasabi.

Naturally, I asked "Who the hell are Wasabi?"... Here's the long answer by digging around online...

Answer:

The founders of Carbonite (online backup solution) have left Carbonite to start a cloud storage company. They were building the company in secret and unveiled in May of 2017.

Right now they have 1 data center and 20 employees. And they have $8.5 million in venture funding from 3 investors:

https://******************/organization/wasabi-technologies-inc#/entity

I looked at the investors hoping to see if anyone would give the impression of being able to properly judge the success chances of the company, but none of them give any "we understand cloud storage" impression, so not much to learn there:
https://******************/person/ron-skates#/entity
https://******************/person/howard-cox#/entity
https://******************/person/desh-deshpande#/entity

Beyond the $8.5, they also raised +$10.7 million recently, so that's a total of ~$20 million in their funds: https://www.americaninno.com/boston...m-round-carbonite-founders-raises-for-wasabi/

And the CEO commented (in the link above) that he had to stop the 2nd fundraiser because they had more money than they needed (wtf?) and that he may decide to add $10 million of his own money next year (wtf?).

So at least they're very well-funded... People are throwing money at these ex-Carbonite guys...

The link above also reveals that the $8.5 million would have lasted them "to the end of the year" (may to december = 7 months)... and that they did the 2nd fundraiser just to get $1 million extra for marketing, and that they ended up with a lot more than they needed. This is all very strange!

Friend said Wasabi’s customer traction has been “fantastic.” While Wasabi was only expecting a couple dozen companies to start trials in the first couple months, it ended up attracting nearly 600 so far, “with very high conversion rates.” The need for customer support has been low, Friend added, since Wasabi works very similar to how S3 does.

That's a big "wtf?". So the founder only expected "a couple dozen companies" to start trials in the first few months. But they got over 600 in a few days. How on EARTH did he not foresee the massive interest in such a dirt-cheap S3-compatible cloud storage claiming to be as reliable as Amazon?! It's as if he's out of touch... Weird.

In their press releases, they're talking about being ready for "exabytes" of data, and having "0.99999999999 (eleven 9's)" reliability. I really don't know about that. This whole thing could be snake oil. Nobody knows at this point.

Their company twitter: https://twitter.com/wasabi_cloud (really weird timeline full of random tech articles, as if they are trying to create discussion about random subjects to get seen).

CEO twitter: https://twitter.com/Wasabi_Dave

May 2 CEO tweet: "Holy cow! We already had to stop new signups because we're concerned about running out of capacity." (https://twitter.com/Wasabi_Dave/status/859775051251494912)

Another on May 2: "Will have more storage online in two weeks. Get in line! First come first served."

Interesting May 4 tweet: "Day 2 as the world's most cost effective cloud storage. Seems like we underestimated the demand by quite a bit. Good problem to have." (https://twitter.com/Wasabi_Dave/status/860190321602424833)

Here is a video from someone on the team, speaking about his confidence in the Carbonite founders and that they know how to build online storage: https://twitter.com/wasabi_cloud/status/886646400775270401

The fact that they founded Carbonite and have experience with huge data centers and cloud storage gives me some hope that this is not just a "so cheap and underpriced that it's gonna crash and burn" company.

I also hope that their hardware infrastructure is good and won't crash and burn under the load... But it seems like they're already getting customers faster than they can expand storage capacity?!

Lastly, I worry that they are just sleazily subsidizing storage costs via the fundraised money and that they are just cheap right now to get tons of customers and publicity, and that they will do a price hike later. It's inevitable that they will need to raise this price... But they'll probably still be really cheap if that happens...

Here is a brief company presentation in the words of the CEO:
https://medium.com/@wasabi_cloud/welcome-to-wasabi-hot-storage-4e06d58e377c

Today Wasabi will launch cloud storage that is so fast, so cheap and so reliable that it will mark the beginning of cloud storage as a commodity. Wasabi is the hot storage company — fast to write, fast to read and instantly available. Instead of industry behemoths doing their best to lock customers into high-priced proprietary storage, Wasabi’s cloud storage is open, easy to use and 100% compatible with the Amazon S3 API. No vendor lock-in. No need for silly artificial storage tiers: Wasabi is 6X the speed and 1/5 the price of S3, even cheaper than Glacier. And more reliable than either. Built for exabyte scale. We’re the same team that created Carbonite, one of the world’s largest cloud backup companies. Welcome to the next generation of cloud storage. Welcome to Wasabi hot storage!

David Friend, Co-Founder and CEO, Wasabi

Here is an article which reveals some good stuff:
http://www.crn.com/news/storage/300...-market-with-disruptive-price-performance.htm

From that article, we learn that David Friend co-founded Carbonite, was its CEO for 10 years, and left it in January of 2015 to found Wasabi. Which was in stealth mode until May of 2017. That's a lot of time out of his life in "stealth mode" building this thing, which makes me think it's serious... Hmm.

And here's some super interesting quotes from that article:

Friend declined to discuss the technology behind the Wasabi cloud storage offering, other than to say that is not the same technology used at Carbonite. Wasabi and Carbonite do not have any equity relationship, he said.

"The cost of storage depends on the cost of hard drives," he said. "We get the same price as the other cloud providers. Our secret sauce is in the software. We focus on how to manage the data. We don't use Windows or Linux. We have learned in the last 15 years how to control that cost. Our technology is completely new."

Wasabi will initially work mainly direct with end-user customers who will likely sign on to the service via the web and a credit card, Friend said. "Our marketing job is to make sure people know us," he said. "People who care about the cost of storage will choose Wasabi. People who care about blinding speed will choose Wasabi."

So that's fascinating. They do not use stock Windows or Linux. They use something custom-written to store data. Perhaps that's how they are able to be "6x faster than Amazon S3"? Perhaps they've programmed some FPGAs to do networking and storage management. I have no idea... they are very secretive about it.

It's actually worrying that they are not using stock Windows or Linux... because that means they've most likely custom-written, and that means bugs (I'm an exceptionally skilled programmer and hell yes there are bugs in ALL software, especially while it's fresh and new).

The article also goes on to add some comments from some tech guy in the business of online storage, who is a bit skeptical about how well they'll work out:

If Wasabi's service works as stated, it will be a very interesting offering, said Rafi Kronzon, CEO of Cartwheel, a New York-based managed service provider.

However, Kronzon told CRN, it will be important to see how well it actually works.

"The actual speed depends on many things," he said. "Speed moves at the bottleneck rate. Where's the bottleneck? In the upload? The download? The processing of the data?"

MSPs, in general, do not compete head-to-head with public cloud storage providers like Amazon, Kronzon said. "We usually store data in S3, but only through backup services like Carbonite, Backupify, and Crashplan," he said. "If Wasabi is going after these vendors, or after companies like Dropbox, it would be a big deal. But Amazon has all the right tools to store and archive data."

Wasabi is entering a crowded cloud storage market that is quickly racing to a cost of zero, Kronzon said.

"There's lots of room in the market, but it's still a tough market," he said. "I would have thought there would actually be more consolidation in this market by now. Cost-per-gigabyte is not a big deal for customers with a terabyte or two of data. The big difference is at large enterprises or at reseller selling services with petabytes of data."

But best of all is this article: http://www.pcworld.com/article/3194...new-cloud-service-like-low-priced-wasabi.html

Here are some of the most important quotes from it:

The company, started by the co-founders of online backup provider Carbonite, says its single pool of capacity can deliver primary, secondary or archive data at a sustained-read speed of 1.3GB per second, versus 191MB per second at Amazon. Its durability is the same, Wasabi says.

Still, enterprises may approach a new service like Wasabi with caution at first, Enterprise Strategy Group analyst Steve Duplessie said.

"I can see companies with huge data sets that have at least two copies in the cloud moving the secondary to a much cheaper alternative like Wasabi," Duplessie said.

Price is just one factor enterprises should consider when they consider a new cloud storage service.

Also, take a good look at whether the service will deliver the performance you need, Duplessie said. And with startups, it's worth considering a company's business practices and financial footing.

"Are they going to be there tomorrow? Are they going to be able to continue supporting you?" Connor said.

Wasabi knows it will need to prove itself and that risk-averse companies may start with second copies of data, CEO David Friend said. "Over time, people will grow to trust us."

The company isn't saying much about what makes the service fast or cheap. Part of it involves the way its software breaks up data and reads it off multiple hard drives in parallel. There is some flash in the architecture, too.

Wasabi has just one data center, located in Northern Virginia and linked to AWS over Amazon's Direct Connect system. Customers can load data into Amazon's EC2 compute cloud faster from Wasabi than from S3, Friend said. Wasabi plans to build another data center in a different location and will charge customers to replicate their data to that site. There are also plans for overseas facilities eventually.

The service isn't designed for small or short-lived data, like temporary data on a website, Friend said. It's for companies with hundreds of terabytes or more that they're going to keep for at least two weeks.

Wasabi offers mostly the same features as S3, with one addition, called "immutable buckets," that the company says will be a boon to data integrity. These are data sets that can't be changed by anyone for a set period of time, determined by the customer's business policies. Immutable buckets could be used for data such as X-rays that a medical center needs to keep for a long time, Friend said.

So from those quotes, the most important things are: It can apparently restore data very, very fast (much faster than Amazon S3). They are using some sort of RAID (multiple harddrives in parallel for data safety and speed). And they are planning a second datacenter in USA and then expansion overseas (Europe!). And anytime a new datacenter opens up, they will let customers move their data there instead (for a fee).

So, with all of that backstory out of the way... here's how Backblaze B2 and Wasabi compare against each other:

Backblaze B2:
  • Storage cost per gigabyte: $0.005/GB.
  • Download cost per gigabyte: $0.02/GB. But you get 1 GB of free downloads per day, which is great for doing occasional, minor file restores for free.
  • There is no minimum monthly charge. You only pay for what you use.
  • There is also a very minor API call cost, but it's so small that you won't notice it.
  • Incredibly good storage architecture, which has fully proven its reliability. And they have recently expanded to having 2 data centers.
  • The company is reliable and won't vanish or hike its prices.
  • Perfect storage reliability. They're splitting data across something like 20 hard disks, and each disk is in a separate storage "pod" (cabinet), and out of those they're using 17+3 parity which means that they can lose 3 whole cabinets/3 whole disks out of the set and can still recover the data (and they recover data transparently). The whole system is incredibly well-engineered.
Wasabi:
  • Storage cost per gigabyte: $0.0039/GB. (-22% of the cost of B2 storage, so about 4/5ths of the B2 cost).
  • Download cost per gigabyte: $0.04/GB. (+100% of the B2 cost... 2x as expensive as B2).
  • Edit: I just found out that if you store less than 1 TB (1024 GB), they'll charge you as if you had 1 TB. Meaning their minimum monthly charge is actually $3.99. So some of the comparison numbers below are wrong. But I won't re-calculate them since they're still correct when you disregard the minimum charge.
  • There is no cost for API calls.
  • But there is a PRETTY BIG caveat with their billing system: Every object (file chunk) you upload is pre-billed for 90 days of storage (and that amount is non-refundable even if you delete the file again immediately).
  • We don't know if they'll do a big price hike soon. They are marketing themselves as an Amazon S3 API-compatible competitor to Amazon, which is ~$0.023/GB, so Wasabi has a LONG way that they can raise their $0.0039/GB and still be totally competitive against Amazon. And since they're not competing against B2 (different markets; Wasabi is S3-compatible and B2 isn't), then they may raise their price far above B2's cost. I am almost certain that Wasabi is doing an aggressive company-launch marketing campaign and are planning to get a lot of customers while living off of fundraised money, and then doing a huuuuge price hike (which at that point will still be cheaper than S3), and hoping companies and customers who needed their S3-compatibility stay on their "still cheaper than Amazon" service.
  • Further proof of that theory is that they said that the $8.5 million would last them for 7 months which shows they're running a very expensive, losing operation right now...
  • We don't even know if they'll stay afloat. But it does seem like they're competent enough to stay alive. And of course their goal is to make a successful company to earn them money.
Storage price comparisons for 700 GB:
  • B2 Monthly Cost: 700 * 0.005 = $3.5
  • Wasabi Monthly Cost: 700 * 0.0039 = $2.73.
  • B2 Total Yearly: $42.
  • Wasabi Total Yearly: $32.76.
  • B2 Download cost (700 GB): $14.
  • Wasabi Download cost (700 GB): $28.
Storage price comparisons for 1300 GB:
  • B2 Monthly Cost: 1300 * 0.005 = $6.5.
  • Wasabi Monthly Cost: 1300 * 0.0039 = $5.07.
  • B2 Total Yearly: $78.
  • Wasabi Total Yearly: $60.84.
  • B2 Download cost (1300 GB): $26.
  • Wasabi Download cost (1300 GB): $52.
So... on paper, for a normal home user's backup set at such small scales... there's hardly any difference in the yearly storage costs. And as for their difference in download cost, you never really need to download anything via Arq unless your hard drives and other backup systems all die, so the download cost is no huge reason to choose one over the other.

But the thing is... I am almost certain that Wasabi is going to raise their insanely low STORAGE price. $0.0039/GB is not sustainable. That's $11.7 per month to store 3000 gigabytes, which is enough to fill up a 3 TB hard drive, which costs about $83 each... So you'd need to store that data for 7 months for them to make a profit off of the cost of just the hard drive itself. Add in the costs of employees, hardware, electricity, etc, and you're looking at a lot longer time before they make a profit, if ever... Hmm...

Remember that Wasabi offers an Amazon S3 API and competes against Amazon's $0.023/GB cost. So let's say Wasabi raises the price to $0.02. That's still less than Amazon and therefore companies who need S3 API (a lot do) would stay with Wasabi, but suddenly it's 4x the cost of Backblaze B2 (which does not support S3 API).

In short: Who the hell knows what to do... Wasabi could be anything... Their founder has cloud storage experience from Carbonite and has worked in secret since January of 2015 to set up this new company. But they could die in a year or two due to the cut-throat "race to zero dollar" cloud storage market and their unsustainably low prices, or they could thrive and expand globally. They could die under the load of too many customers (see their early tweets a day after launch), or they could be super fast. They could raise the price to far beyond B2's price, and the risk of them doing that is pretty high after they've gained enough customers... Or, they could keep their $0.0039 and forever be 4/5ths the price of B2 storage...

I had signed up with a B2 trial in preparation for Arq's B2 support... and I think I'll still choose B2...

There are so many risks with Wasabi. Sure, I'd pay $60.84 ($17.16 less than B2) per year instead of $78 to store 1300 GB... but, then they'll probably raise the price and suddenly it'll be something like $90 per year for Wasabi. Do I really want the hassle of switching provider AGAIN if Wasabi, an unproven company with a "try to make a splash with low fees" launch marketing campaign, suddenly raises their prices? They're competing with S3 (and their API); NOT with B2. So they are free to raise their price much higher than B2, and it's almost inevitable that they'll do so... In fact, Wasabi could raise their current prices to far above B2's price and they still wouldn't piss off people who come from Amazon S3's massive prices.

So, B2 is a much safer choice. For just $17 more per year, about the cost of a single pizza and coke at a restaurant, I can choose B2 instead and rest safe knowing that Backblaze B2 is a trusted company with a proven track record and a stable price. And an incredibly safe 17+3 hard disk parity storage architecture which will never lose a single byte of my data (https://www.backblaze.com/blog/vault-cloud-storage-architecture/).

You will all have to ask yourselves the same question. I don't know Wasabi's future. Time will tell if Wasabi is trustworthy. They may have a truly badly designed system, and they may be unsustainable and massively hike their prices as soon as they've ensnared enough customers.

I can say for sure: Switching providers sucks. It drains time and energy. I had about 1300 GB at Amazon Cloud Drive. It took about 2 weeks to upload all of that data. Then I had to just delete it all, which loses all history records... And I will now have to spend weeks doing the migration to the new provider, during which time I have no online backups... I don't know if it's worth trying Wasabi just because it's currently 4/5th's (~80%) of the B2 storage cost (while being twice as expensive at downloads)...

I am not interested in losing time and energy to be a tester for an unproven company (Wasabi), just to save a measly $17 per year ($1.4 per month) while risking a sudden, massive price hike or a collapse of the company... Heck, I buy candy bars that cost more than that damn $1.4 price difference per month.

So I'm going to choose B2. Affordable, completely proven as a company, and super reliable storage. Let's go! :)
 
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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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If anyone is considering Wasabi despite the overview above, then just be aware of what I just read while closing down their web tab... See https://wasabi.com/pricing/pricing-faqs/.

Apparently, if you store less than 1 TB in active storage (non-deleted data) at Wasabi, they'll charge you for 1 TB:

"In the event the Timed Active Storage charge is less than $3.99, a charge associated with Wasabi’s minimum 1 TB per month storage requirement charge applies. At $.0039 per GB per month, this results a minimum monthly charge of $.0039 * 1024 or $3.99 per TB per month. This charge is applied to cover Wasabi’s fixed costs per customer account."
 
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SteveJobzniak

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I am now uploading to Backblaze B2. Wow. Great impressions. It was very easy to create an app key on my control panel and giving it to Arq.

The speed of B2 is much faster than Amazon Cloud Drive ever was.

With both, I was getting ~50-300 KB/s whenever Arq is packing tons of tiiiiiny files (which takes time to collect and pack together, which means Arq doesn't have a lot of data to send, so the speed will appear low).

But when Arq is backing up folders full of big files, that's when you see the real speed test...

With Amazon Cloud Drive I was hovering between 300-800 KB/s (0.3-0.8 MB/s) for big files. Pathetic and required patience. I assumed it was my internet connection's fault.

With B2 I am getting 2.5 MB/s (maxes out my internet connection) for big files.

That's real megabytes per second, not megabits.

I had indeed read that B2 + upload-threading (which Arq does) is able to reach great speeds around the whole world. And I can confirm that fact. They're much faster than Amazon's consumer drive offering.

:)
 
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SteveJobzniak

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Dec 24, 2015
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Thanks for your contributions to the thread SteveJobzniak. I'll give Backblaze B2 a try. :)

You're welcome! I am happy to do the math and share the findings to save you time. :)

I am overjoyed with B2. They are fast, and I know that their storage system is so well-designed that my data is totally safe. And you will have great speeds even from London, because I read on their official blog that a Swedish user (close to your location) maxed his 50Mbit upload connection with B2.

The main bottleneck across the atlantic is latency (the time it takes TCP data transfer acknowledgements to travel back, before more data gets sent). So data gets sent, and then an acknowledgement (ACK) is sent, and then more data is sent, etc. But as long as your app uses multiple upload-threads (multiple connections) simultaneously, data will be flowing non-stop over multiple connections while some are waiting, and it will therefore max out your internet connection even when you use B2 from Europe. Thankfully, Arq uses multiple threads and is very fast.

I'm loving it.
 

Weaselboy

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You're welcome! I am happy to do the math and share the findings to save you time.
Yes... thanks for sure. You put a lot of work into that. You've got me thinking about moving off S3 and onto B2.

When using B2 with Arq is there a setting like there is for S3 where you can set a $$ budget each month to manage how much is stored?
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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Yes... thanks for sure. You put a lot of work into that. You've got me thinking about moving off S3 and onto B2.

When using B2 with Arq is there a setting like there is for S3 where you can set a $$ budget each month to manage how much is stored?

Yeah, it's a lot of work, but it's worth sharing so that others don't have to do the same work. ;-)

I would definitely recommend the move. Backblaze B2's storage architecture is incredibly beautiful to me as a programmer. Just check out the article I linked at the bottom of the post above. All files are stored across 20 hard disks, with each disk being in a separate cabinet, and it's able to have 3 whole cabinets die simultaneously without losing a single byte of data. Their system is also far better than RAID, because RAID would replicate filesystem corruption, whereas Backblaze's system doesn't replicate the filesystem and is therefore totally safe against filesystem corruption. They also run automatic scans which constantly validates all data in storage. In all the years they haven't had any data loss. I fully trust them to not lose a single byte of my data.

And they're "hot storage", meaning that you get instant access to your data at any time. There's no "cold-storage infrequent access" tiers. Any restore you want to do is done instantly instead of waiting via S3's "infrequent access" retrieval times. And the restore costs are much, much cheaper than S3.

As for budgeting, yep it is supported. I haven't figured out my exact needs yet so I haven't set any limit. But the Arq control panel for B2 looks like this:

Screen Shot 2017-07-28 at 17.17.43.png


To calculate what you can afford under your budget, just go to https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html. For example seeing what it would cost to store 500 GB, you'd set it up like this:

Initial Upload: 500 GB
Monthly Upload: 10 GB
Monthly Delete: 10 GB
Monthly Download: 0 GB (because most people won't download more than the free 1GB per day)
Period of time: 1 Month

Result: $2.50 (compared to about $10.75 at S3's hot storage).

The reason to set upload+delete to the same value is to simulate a statically sized data set at the "max needed size", with some uploads+deletes of old data.

Then when you know how much data you want to use on B2, as your maximum, you just set that "Limit total size of backups to: 500 GB" or similar in Arq, and it'll take care of automatically deleting the oldest backup records whenever the limit is reached.

By the way, B2 gives you 10 GB for free without any time limits. And as I mentioned on the previous page in the deep B2 analysis, they actually allow you to do 1 GB of free downloads every day, so chances are that if you only do tiny restores occasionally, you won't even incur any of its (very reasonably priced) download costs.

Good luck and have fun! :)
 
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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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040510omnidisksweeper-screenshot.jpg


Wow... Here's a tip: Do what I just did... I used the OmniDiskSweeper freebie to visualize my home folder and my other backup folders. It sorts all content by the largest folder hierarchies. (Btw, the example screenshot above isn't mine, I am not John Braun. ;))

https://www.omnigroup.com/more

Then I went through and looked at various "~100 GB here and there" folders, and thought "do I really need to back this up?". In most cases, the answer was that I could easily retrieve that content online from the original vendor for free if I ever lose it. And downloading from the vendor or downloading from my own online backup would be equally time-wasting so I saw no need to back up huge content that came from reliable vendors which offer free re-downloads. But in some cases, the vendor is unreliable and may vanish and I decided to keep that content.

After doing this, I have shrunk my previous 1300 GB "backup everything" selection to a mere 40 GB for my home folder and 53 GB for irreplaceable music library reinstallers.

Here's the list of excludes I did for my home folder, which may help someone:

~/Downloads/ (has incoming, replaceable files that change too often, usually mid-backup, and are usually incomplete)
~/Documents/Virtual Machines.localized/ (I use VMware Fusion and the VM disks are huge)
~/Movies/Downloaded Movies/ (can always download them again)
~/Music/Sample Libraries/ (the installed libraries take up hundreds of gigabytes and there's no reason to back up the finished, installed content)
~/Music/iTunes/iTunes Media/Mobile Applications/ (those iOS apps can be downloaded again)
~/Music/iTunes/iTunes Media/Downloads/ (just contains incomplete downloads)
~/Library/Application Support/AirVideoServerHD/Cache/ (these folders hold caches/conversion files for this movie streamer app)
~/Library/Application Support/AirVideoServerHD/ConvertedFiles/
~/Library/Application Support/MobileSync/ (has iOS device backup data, which is already in iCloud too)
~/Library/Caches/
~/Library/Logs/
~/Library/Saved Application State/


So my 1300 GB backup selection (which would have been $78 annually at Backblaze B2 if I had uploaded it all to them like I did with Amazon Cloud Drive) has been reduced to just 94 GB... which is $5.64 annually! And I am just as protected as before. Even if my computer is stolen/dies in a fire, and my Time Capsule is stolen, I still won't lose any of my irreplaceable files, and I can download everything else online from the various vendors again.

This is a great lesson that I found worth sharing: Try using OmniDiskSweeper and reviewing what you truly need to backup. My final $5.64 per year ends up being far cheaper than even Amazon Cloud Drive Unlimited was (which was costing me $59.99 per year before their price hike).
 
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Weaselboy

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Jan 23, 2005
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Good tip... I just thinned my backup down by 7GB by skipping this folder with all the iOS apps. Like you said, they are easily pulled down from iTunes if catastrophe strikes.

~/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music/Mobile Applications
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
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Hey everyone, I was just re-calculating my final costs and discovered a small tip for those comparing B2 prices: Set "Monthly download" to "0 GB" in their calculator. Because I just realized that the download meter there refers to downloads beyond your totally free 1 GB per day allowance! And most people will back up and then never restore, or will at most restore some tiny document files (less than 1 GB per day), so most of us will never hit any download costs. So you'll shave a bit off of your final storage estimates by correctly setting "Monthly download" to zero of the "paid" download-gigabytes!

Updated instructions:

To calculate what you can afford at Backblaze B2 under your budget, just go to https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html.

For example seeing what it would cost to store 500 GB, you'd set it up like this:

Initial Upload: 500 GB
Monthly Upload: 10 GB (set upload and delete to the same value to emulate a "static backup size")
Monthly Delete: 10 GB
Monthly Download: 0 GB (because most people won't download more than the free 1GB per day)
Period of time: 1 Month

Result: $2.50

[doublepost=1501412721][/doublepost]
To all of you on this thread: incredibly valuable info for those of us pondering that third part of the 3-2-1 rule. Thank you!!

Ahh... https://www.backblaze.com/blog/the-3-2-1-backup-strategy/

That's cool, I didn't know there was a term for what we're doing.

I've just sort of branched out into extra protection over time and automatically achieved 3-2-1. This wasn't much work to set up and it's definitely what I recommend to others:

  1. MacBook Pro: Its local disk is my primary copy. And it's encrypted with FileVault (boot-password) and instant "require password after screensaver", and I have set the top right corner of the screen as a "Mission Control: Hot Corners: Put display to sleep" in System Preferences and always use that gesture (move the mouse to the top right edge of the screen) to lock the computer when I leave the desktop. This prevents burglars and snooping people from getting a damn thing out of it.
  2. Time Capsule (others may prefer Carbon Copy Cloner): The local time capsule is my local encrypted backup copy of the entire contents of the MBP, and it can restore the whole system disk to a blank new MBP hard disk if ever needed.
  3. External USB disks for large application/library reinstallers: Since I work in music production, there are tons of huuuuge sample libraries to deal with (50-100 GB per library installer is normal). So I have two external disks which I sometimes hook up via a USB enclosure and rsync the latest installer data onto both as a backup (it's great in case companies suddenly vanish one day, and it also prevents needing to download 100 GB from the net again for a future reinstall, which.. sucks). They both contain the same data. So I could lose one of those two external disks (fire, disk death, burglary) and would still have the other identical backup. Therefore the risk of data loss locally is extremely low.
  4. Dropbox: Critical online copy of my 1Password database and DEVONthink scanned paperwork/receipt database which has contracts and other important documents. The things I can't resume life without. Since they are on Dropbox and I've memorized my Dropbox password, I can get those back anywhere from any device.
  5. Arq: Online cloud backup of everything critical and completely irreplaceable from all of the above, in case I lose everything local listed above.

I'll hopefully never even need to download a single byte from the cloud, but I sure as heck don't want to live in fear that a burglary or fire will destroy everything local and losing decades of irreplaceable projects and memories. So a cloud backup is absolutely vital when all local copies fail.

I'm happy that Backblaze is so affordable and so reliable (both as a company and their storage architecture) and that it now works perfectly with Arq. I paid $79.98 for a "Lifetime Arq License" (all major upgrades for free for life), and am paying ~$5.64 per year at Backblaze B2 to store 94 GB in their excellent cloud. That's just $0.47 per month for total peace of mind.

Worth it! ;)
 
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SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
Ehm... I've talked a lot here, but I just found something really sweet and I'll write it as a new post so that everyone sees it:

"The first 10 GBytes are free, then the amount over 10 GBytes is $0.005/GByte/month."

Their price calculator actually mentions this in tiny print at the bottom: "Figures are not exact and do not include the following: Free first 10 GB of storage, free 1 GB of daily downloads."

So... we can all subtract 10 GB from our uploaded sum at Backblaze B2. My 94 GB will be billed as 84 GB. So my previously mentioned $5.64 pear year will actually be $5.04. Haha, I'm rich! :D
 

SteveJobzniak

macrumors 6502
Dec 24, 2015
489
780
I'm expecting a post on here by tomorrow that you have somehow figured out a way for them to pay you to store your data. :D

Haha. I am actually feeling bad for Backblaze and feel like I'm ripping them off. Because I seriously wonder how they're even going to make anything off of billing my tiny $0.42 per month, after they've paid their fixed credit card processing fees on each card transaction... o_O Well that's their problem. :D I'm rich now!

Edit: Well, I guess I shouldn't feel bad since I've recommended their service to others. I can sleep at night now... kinda.
 

bwintx

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2002
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Am awaiting delivery later this week of a new iMac (first Mac of my own since the 1980s so, yeah, I'm a happy guy right now) and will implement 3-2-1 as follows. I welcome any observations about this plan, since it's still just a plan and not yet implemented.
  • Primary source -- iMac itself will have a 1 TB SSD.
  • Onsite backups -- Will use an external 4 TB hard drive connected via USB 3.0. Will partition it to allow for (a.) cloning the whole drive via Carbon Copy Cloner and (b.) incremental Time Machine backups for the versioning convenience. Also awaiting this drive, which is a fairly inexpensive Seagate Backup Plus Hub box.
  • Offsite backups -- Based on the superb information on this thread, I will use Arq and, probably, BackBlaze B2.
Re the onsite backups, I think the external drive I mentioned will more than handle my needs for a while. If I get to the point where my files' quantities and/or sizes grow too big for this setup -- e.g., I may get a really nice DSLR and start cranking out big photo and video files -- then I might go on to add a DAS or NAS box, probably from Synology. But that's tremendous overkill just yet, although I must admit I gave it a lot of thought. :)
 

Weaselboy

Moderator
Staff member
Jan 23, 2005
34,489
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California
Onsite backups -- Will use an external 4 TB hard drive connected via USB 3.0. Will partition it to allow for (a.) cloning the whole drive via Carbon Copy Cloner and (b.) incremental Time Machine backups for the versioning
My only suggestion would be this part would be safer on two drives, one for TM and the other for CCC. Your plan will work, but it would be better with TM and CCC each on their own drive. With your setup if that drive goes bad you have lost both your TM and CCC backups.
 
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bwintx

macrumors 6502
Jul 17, 2002
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My only suggestion would be this part would be safer on two drives, one for TM and the other for CCC. Your plan will work, but it would be better with TM and CCC each on their own drive. With your setup if that drive goes bad you have lost both your TM and CCC backups.

Yep, hadn't thought of that. So if I simply add another Backup Plus Hub, for example, and dedicate one to TM and the other to CCC, good to go, you think?
 
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