Beyond the M1 hype and why the fairy dust needs to settle.

[Yebubbleman]

This is probably the crux for a bunch of people. One thing being on x86 did bring was extra flexibility by being on commodity CPUs everyone was using. For folks who were using a Mac because it was Intel+Apple, going to ARM is going to be rough. Those of us who were users in the PPC days had a bit of forewarning that this hurdle was coming. That said, in the long term, I don’t think this is going to be nearly as bad as the PPC days.

There were at least plenty of PowerPC variant versions of Linux that ran on PowerPC Macs. Hell, Yellow Dog was geared for PowerPC Mac users. That's not to say that there aren't a slew of people working on Apple Silicon native Linux versions. But I think, especially given that this isn't just an ARM64 SoC, but a HEAVILY customized SoC is going to make things a lot more difficult outside of mere virtualization.

When it comes to OS support, it’s a chicken/egg problem. Hardware vendors are going to be slow to adopt ARM hardware if the OS isn’t there, and the OS vendors are going to be slow if the hardware isn’t there. That said, at least on the Linux side, things look promising. A lot of the heavy lifting is done at this point, and Debian/Ubuntu are supporting ARM64 as an official release. This should make it easier for other distros to catch up.

Windows though? That’s entirely on Microsoft’s plate at this point. They have always played things conservatively when it comes to Windows in a lot of ways, but they risk ceding the server space even more to Linux if ARM64 in the data center keeps making inroads. If the rumors that they are working on in-house ARM designs for the datacenter are true, then it’s extremely likely they are working on the changes to WoA to match. Question is more if they are going to keep with OEM-only licensing going forward here.

Microsoft DOES have ARM64 versions of Windows Server, and you, as a customer, are able to use it in Azure, but they do not have it available standalone for use in one's own datacenter, one's own private cloud, on AWS, or on one's own ARM64-based server. It's worse than what they have with Windows 10 for ARM64 currently.

I still maintain that Microsoft cares about Windows 10 for ARM64 and that Apple Silicon Macs represent a massive opportunity for Microsoft to sell OEMs on the potential of the platform (as even with weaker qualcomm SoC's, native ARM64 code does run well on ARM64-based Windows 10 computers. They wouldn't even have to modify their "it can only be licensed for OEMs" THAT much, especially if they collaborate with Apple on a Mac App Store friendly installer (that would effectively perform the functions that the Intel Mac Boot Camp Assistant and subsequent Windows Support software [drivers] package has done, albeit even more streamlined).

 

[apparatchik]

Only low end i9's, and i9's in a laptop that lacks enough cooling.

It beats every i9 and virtually every Intel/AMD processors ever made in single-threaded performance and multi-threaded when going core per core. The M1 has just 4 performance cores (no HT) and has been designed to run fanless, hence, any modern Intel/AMD processor with twice the cores, twice the thermal envelope, twice the size and three times the power consumption, etc. will sure beat the M1 in multi-threaded scenarios when ignoring the different core count and ignoring power and thermals.

You said it best "laptop that lacks enough cooling". is it a problem with the laptop not having enough cooling or that Intel's chips cant keep up performance on a modern laptop? If your "mobile" i7/i9 requires liquid cooling or massive heat sinks and fans to sustain claimed performance, then maybe the problem is the chip, not the laptop.

None of those Intel/AMD systems run fanless or remotely near the thermal envelope of the M1. Perf per watt, Apple Silicon is 2-3 generations ahead.

 

[Homy]

This thread is getting so ridiculous and absurd that it’s almost hilarious. I’ve been using Macs since 1995 and I’m very excited about Apple Silicon but wouldn’t even bother to go to a pc forum to preach, lecture and enlighten people about Macs. Why would I feel the need to do that? They’ve made their choice and I have made mine. As others have stated this thread turned quickly from claiming Apple Silicon’s inferiority to a history of everything bad about Macs and Apple with irrelevant comparisons and reasoning. You should just change the thread name to ”Macs are crap, Pc is king”. It’s obvious that it was the real purpose of the discussion. If you have such an urge to come to a Mac site and enlighten people about their ”bad choice” you must be obsessed, even possessed by troll demons or very fond of your superior tech knowledge, as shown here by many judging by their askew logic.

I mean suggesting inferior pc laptops as better choice because they’re cheaper? comparing AMD Threadripper with first gen mobile M1? Bashing M1 for not being able to run Windows games? using Intel Mac Pro’s price and performance as an argument against M1 and its future? grasping for every other flaw and mistake in Apple’s history to prove that M1’s future is doomed? Talking like they know every Apple secret and the company’s road map, future plans and technology?

It’s like when you’re happy about your child just learning to ride a bicycle and your neighbors quickly gather around and point out that it’s nothing compared to their big boys who are Motocross pros and their bikes are much more powerful.

Posting about cheaper ”better” pc laptops is also like me going to a store to buy apples and having to listen to the employee nagging about how cheap and good the potatoes are. Dude, I want apples not potatoes. If I wanted potatoes I would buy them.

Of course Apple Silicon is the future, it’s the future for us using Macs and Mac OS, not the future of Windows and pc users. What’s difficult to understand about that? Many seem to forget that the choice between computers is very much about the OS. We’ll see what these guys say when Apple introduces its 128-core GPU with 41 TFLOPS next year (according to Bloomberg), outperforming GF 3090. Oh sorry, forgot about ”Apple will never do that”.

So we hear you loud and clear, Macs are crap and pc is king. Anything else you want to discuss besides that? I didn’t think so. Congratulations! Move along now and find another forum to conquer like Thanos, but we all know what happened to Thanos.

 

[mi7chy]

That's a Threadripper PRO and in order to to have a nice benefit you need 8 memory channels on a WRX80 mainboard. All of a sudden that "My Threadripper is so much cheaper than a Mac Pro" makes little sense when throwing in a $6k CPU. It also means you need different hardware for different CPUs, this is exactly what Apple won't do. Btw, where exactly can I place an order for 1000 of those (CPU and Board)? Or maybe 500? 200? ...?

Wonder how many AMD could have shipped to Apple back in 2019... oh wait. Nevermind.
What's next, people asking why Apple used AS/M1 and not that new CPU platform that will launch in 2083?

It's not rocket science. Get an Epyc SP3 socket then that's been out since 2017. $5K for AMD CPU with $45K+ budget left over for several 3090 GPUs, 980 Pro NVMe SSDs, 100GB NICs, etc. vs Mac Pro that will get kicked to the curb.

 

[mi7chy]

It beats every i9 and virtually every Intel/AMD processors ever made in single-threaded performance and multi-threaded when going core per core.

No it doesn't. 15W AMD 5800U is significantly ahead in multi-threaded and on par with single-threaded plus it doesn't have the issue of lacking native software.

 

[leman]

No it doesn't. 15W AMD 5800U is significantly ahead in multi-threaded and on par with single-threaded plus it doesn't have the issue of lacking native software.

Its ahead in multi-core when configured at 25W TDP and only while PL2 is active (which is around 40W...)

Besides, why are we looking at Cinebench which is known to underutilize the CPU? What about some proper benchmarks like SPEC?

 

[LIVEFRMNYC]

Great comparison ...

 

[Jorbanead]

No it doesn't. 15W AMD 5800U is significantly ahead in multi-threaded and on par with single-threaded plus it doesn't have the issue of lacking native software.

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Use actual real-word examples. Why do you keep referencing this ONE metric when it’s been pointed out many times that cinebench doesn’t fully utilize the M1, and there are also other metrics out there that show the exact opposite. At the end of the day it comes down to real world performance and usage.

As stated before, the M1 is apples version of a ryzen 3 (maybe 5). It’s made for low-level devices. It doesn’t have hyperthreading. It only has 4 performance cores. You’re comparing this to an 8-core hyper threaded chip which requires a fan and more power. The M1 is a great chip but it’s literally going to be the worst chip apple will ever make for Mac, and the fact that you can only pinpoint one or two meaningless benchmarks, comparing the M1 to a chip that’s in a higher class as somehow proof that M1 macs are inferior, kind of proves our point. Thread per thread M1 is faster and those benchmarks show that. Also the M1 isn’t JUST about multi-core cpu performance. How about we compare igpu performance? Or what about NPU performance? Right, AMD chips don’t have NPU’s. What about video encoding and decoding? AMD doesn’t have hardware accelerators, forgot. These things don’t show up on a cinebench multi core benchmark.

But please keep posting cinebench multi scores of a chip in a different class to prove your point.

 

[MBAir2010]

I’ve been using Macs since 1995 and I’m very exited about Apple Silicon but wouldn’t even bother to go to a pc forum to preach, lecture and enlighten people about Macs.

i dont think there are any PC forums, not even on the internets!
if so they are weird, about 2 weeks ago, I typed "baseball" on the Dell support forum,
they changed the word to "sports".

i enjoyed your post byw, the writing was very fluid and to the point.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

It's not rocket science. Get an Epyc SP3 socket then that's been out since 2017. $5K for AMD CPU with $45K+ budget left over for several 3090 GPUs, 980 Pro NVMe SSDs, 100GB NICs, etc. vs Mac Pro that will get kicked to the curb.

Indeed it isn't rocket science. We actually do rocket science and have satellites in space, it's far from it. What you say might work for someone sitting at home, building a single PC. For those actually working in science and with scientific applications, what you say makes absolutely no sense. I could go on on how guaranteed support within a specific timeframe is needed, availability in large numbers, software support, etc. (which can all be provided by resellers, for Lenovo, Apple, etc.) is all needed to avoid downtime and provide the best efficacy, but it's pointless. Those that actually work in the field know what I mean.

Fun fact, I spoke to our partners at Oracle who manage their cloud services across the globe. They provide EPYC, but in low numbers. It's nothing they consider large scale for the above mentioned reasons. We settled on buying hardware for our datacenters that ended up in the Top100 last year. Personally I don't care what hardware I have to use, as long as I can get my research done. But hey, it seems AMD is on track for Zen4 to finally support AVX3-512 and BFLOAT16 among other things. So there's hope after all.

Of course none of this matters for the hardcore gamer sitting at home playing games, uploading Videos to YouTube or looking at non-sense Cinebench results. A Ryzen is a solid choice for playing games.

 

[apparatchik]

No it doesn't. 15W AMD 5800U is significantly ahead in multi-threaded and on par with single-threaded plus it doesn't have the issue of lacking native software.

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I think you just proved my point, M1 beats it when going core per core, as it is faster in single-threaded tasks, and is 70% as fast with just 4 performance cores against 8 cores with HT. Remember M1 doesnt do Hyper-threading. Also, this Ryzen chip, does it run on fanless ultrabooks? otherwise you just keep proving my point Im afraid.

Also, I don't know what you mean by "the issue of lacking native software", are you feeling alright my dude?

 

[bobcomer]

..."lacks enough cooling."

What the heck do you need? Liquid nitrogen? It's a laptop. Intel has massive cooling issues and does not hold up. The M1 is first gen and low watt right now. It will only get better from here.

Liquid nitrogen might work. But really the problem is that the i9 isn't good as a mobile processor, so the best thing that Intel and Apple could have done would be to not sell it for that. Even the higher end i7's don't get the cooling they need. (My 2017 MBP i7 machine struggled and was slower than it should have been.)

If your argument was that the M1 was the best mobile processor, or more power efficient, I wouldn't have argued because you'd have been absolutely right -- but to say the i9 is a slower processor than the M1, you are not correct. Even a midrange i9 is a good bit faster than an M1.

The M1 is a great idea, especially the low power core, nobody else has those. It has a few bugs, but it's a much better mobile processor than the i9, and whatever comes next will compete more with the non mobile i9's.

 

[GrumpyCoder]

Why do you keep referencing this ONE metric when it’s been pointed out many times that cinebench doesn’t fully utilize the M1, and there are also other metrics out there that show the exact opposite.

Because AMD is doing the same thing for all their presentations. They pick a specific benchmark that shows a higher number and claim it's the best thing ever. I remember Lisa Su during a keynote claiming AMD is a big player in Deep Learning, showing off the latest GPUs. What they actually showed then was a small clip of DNA sequencing and something else I can't remember because I had to laugh. Nvidia is wiping the floor with them in that field. Yet, they always have this one high magic and handpicked metric showing off their performance. Again, this won't matter to the "gamer" (or youtuber, musician, etc.) at home. Speaking of it, I'm at the (virtual) GTC next week. I've yet to see anything similar from AMD, guess that one magic number doesn't work out so well after all for the target market.

Run a full benchmark suite and do a proper comparison, only that makes sense.

 

[thedocbwarren]

Liquid nitrogen might work. But really the problem is that the i9 isn't good as a mobile processor, so the best thing that Intel and Apple could have done would be to not sell it for that. Even the higher end i7's don't get the cooling they need. (My 2017 MBP i7 machine struggled and was slower than it should have been.)

If your argument was that the M1 was the best mobile processor, or more power efficient, I wouldn't have argued because you'd have been absolutely right -- but to say the i9 is a slower processor than the M1, you are not correct. Even a midrange i9 is a good bit faster than an M1.

The M1 is a great idea, especially the low power core, nobody else has those. It has a few bugs, but it's a much better mobile processor than the i9, and whatever comes next will compete more with the non mobile i9's.

I see what you are saying and yeah I think for what the two processors are actually designed for and how they are used makes the difference here.

I agree the i9 is not a great mobile processor. I wondered for years why Intel never upped their mobile cores and voltage, tada, that's why.

For the M1, it's way cool for a mobile processor. I do like the idea of scaling it up for desktop use as well. There are plenty of RISC top-end systems so not expecting Apple will have trouble with this.

Something I've always though is how I never felt like Macs really were intended to directly compare to a PC. I know the commercials from a market standpoint, but the intent always felt different.

Anyway appreciate the contructive discussion vs some of the nonsensical ones. I don't feel like this is an us vs them thing. I'd compare more the M1 to the Intel Macs. It's cool they hold up to processors out of their class, shows a bright future.

 

[SuperMatt]

This thread is getting so ridiculous and absurd that it’s almost hilarious. I’ve been using Macs since 1995 and I’m very exited about Apple Silicon but wouldn’t even bother to go to a pc forum to preach, lecture and enlighten people about Macs. Why would I feel the need to do that? They’ve made their choice and I have made mine. As others have stated this thread turned quickly from claiming Apple Silicon’s inferiority to a history of everything bad about Macs and Apple with irrelevant comparisons and reasoning. You should just change the thread name to ”Macs are crap, Pc is king”. It’s obvious that it was the real purpose of the discussion. If you have such an urge to come to a Mac site and enlighten people about their ”bad choice” you must be obsessed, even possessed by troll demons or very fond of your superior tech knowledge, as shown here by many judging by their askew logic.

I mean suggesting inferior pc laptops as better choice because they’re cheaper? comparing AMD Threadripper with first gen mobile M1? Bashing M1 for not being able to run Windows games? using Intel Mac Pro’s price and performance as an argument against M1 and its future? grasping for every other flaw and mistake in Apple’s history to prove that M1’s future is doomed? Talking like they know every Apple secret and the company’s road map, future plans and technology?

It’s like when you’re happy about your child just learning to ride a bicycle and your neighbors quickly gather around and point out that it’s nothing compared to their big boys who are Motocross pros and their bikes are much more powerful.

Posting about cheaper ”better” pc laptops is also like me going to a store to buy apples and having to listen to the employee nagging about how cheap and good the potatoes are. Dude, I want apples not potatoes. If I wanted potatoes I would buy them.

Of course Apple Silicon is the future, it’s the future for us using Macs and Mac OS, not the future of Windows and pc users. What’s difficult to understand about that? Many seem to forget that the choice between computers is very much about the OS. We’ll see what these guys say when Apple introduces its 128-core GPU with 41 TFLOPS next year (according to Bloomberg), outperforming GF 3090. Oh sorry, forgot about ”Apple will never do that”.

So we hear you loud and clear, Macs are crap and pc is king. Anything else you want to discuss besides that? I didn’t think so. Congratulations! Move along now and find another forum to conquer like Thanos, but we all know what happened to Thanos.

When people start criticizing the Intel Mac Pro in a thread they started to supposedly criticize the M1 Macs, it becomes pretty obvious what they’re really doing... just general Mac bashing, probably hoping to get a rise from the MacRumors faithful.

 

[bobcomer]

It beats every i9

No, it doesn't. Most of the multicore benchmarks have the i9 faster and I can tell you my i9 desktop is a lot faster than my M1 MBA. Single threaded performance isn't real world usage.

The rest I answered in another post -- the i9 isn't a good mobile processor.

 

[Ethosik]

yeah, yeah, yeah- i'll go stand in teh internets corner and contemplate every computer aspect for 5 minutes.

im back!
Apple did state
"The Apple M1 chip gives the 13‑inch MacBook Pro speed and power beyond belief"
and
"And it brings the world’s fastest integrated graphics in a personal computer, delivering a ridiculous 5x boost in graphics horsepower."
Now if ANY other manufacture claimed this, there would be 80 pages of comments instead the 8 here.

I read that the Ryzen and other gaming laptops are getting faster results now.

Can Apple still claim that their M1 processor is still the worlds fastest because they only make combined CPU and a GPU included on the same chip? which is like saying i'm the worlds fasted man! umm fastest 3 legged man!

this is not bashing the M1, or anything apple, just their marketing people should not make bold statements.
Just too many media outlets and advertisers are blatantly lying daily and we are getting tired of this.

Are you able to read? Look at the underlined sentence you posted. INTEGRATED GRAPHICS. Not fastest CPU.

 

[bobcomer]

I agree the i9 is not a great mobile processor. I wondered for years why Intel never upped their mobile cores and voltage, tada, that's why.

Yep!

For the M1, it's way cool for a mobile processor. I do like the idea of scaling it up for desktop use as well. There are plenty of RISC top-end systems so not expecting Apple will have trouble with this.

I'm a bit pessimistic about scaling well, but I'll definitely be following what goes on. Business stuff is going to need x86 for a long time to come, but a real competitor will be more interesting.

Something I've always though is how I never felt like Macs really were intended to directly compare to a PC. I know the commercials from a market standpoint, but the intent always felt different.

I agree, they really are different and that's why I can like both of them for different reasons. x86/Windows for business and its need for always backwards compatibility, and Apple for better video capabilities and a cleaner OS design. That relegates the Mac's to home for me, but I still like them...

Anyway appreciate the contructive discussion vs some of the nonsensical ones. I don't feel like this is an us vs them thing. I'd compare more the M1 to the Intel Macs. It's cool they hold up to processors out of their class, shows a bright future.

I'm not so sure Apple designed their last intel Macs very well. They look good, but there are some odd things, like the cooling problems...

 

[MBAir2010]

Are you able to read? Look at the underlined sentence you posted. INTEGRATED GRAPHICS. Not fastest CPU.

we cleared this Allllllll up hours ago!
i am fine now and happy!
how are you?

 

[crazy dave]

There were at least plenty of PowerPC variant versions of Linux that ran on PowerPC Macs. Hell, Yellow Dog was geared for PowerPC Mac users. That's not to say that there aren't a slew of people working on Apple Silicon native Linux versions. But I think, especially given that this isn't just an ARM64 SoC, but a HEAVILY customized SoC is going to make things a lot more difficult outside of mere virtualization.

Actually they’ve got Linux working on the M1 already - initial support has even been merged into the upcoming 5.13 release. As far as I’m aware the CPU’s quirks are mostly figured out - at least enough to get it working and with “Linux-like solutions” for them. While graphics are still an issue, Hector of Asahi Linux posted today that he was confident his team could deliver relatively quickly as the GPU “seems rational” so far and the firmware is loaded before Linux boots. Corellium has got WiFi and TB working. Now something like the NPU ... getting that working on Linux might take longer. But it also isn’t necessary for Linux to work as expected for almost every task.

While there were a lot of oddities to overcome, Hector also stated that he believes some of the choices they made (and he says an Apple team member publicly confirmed) in the M1/macOS/firmware design was to allow/aid in other OSes being able to boot.

Microsoft DOES have ARM64 versions of Windows Server, and you, as a customer, are able to use it in Azure, but they do not have it available standalone for use in one's own datacenter, one's own private cloud, on AWS, or on one's own ARM64-based server. It's worse than what they have with Windows 10 for ARM64 currently.

I still maintain that Microsoft cares about Windows 10 for ARM64 and that Apple Silicon Macs represent a massive opportunity for Microsoft to sell OEMs on the potential of the platform (as even with weaker qualcomm SoC's, native ARM64 code does run well on ARM64-based Windows 10 computers. They wouldn't even have to modify their "it can only be licensed for OEMs" THAT much, especially if they collaborate with Apple on a Mac App Store friendly installer (that would effectively perform the functions that the Intel Mac Boot Camp Assistant and subsequent Windows Support software [drivers] package has done, albeit even more streamlined).

Yes we don’t know what conversations Apple and MS are having behind the scenes or what those will come to. A bare-metal Windows on AS in the future wouldn’t shock me. It might not happen but it wouldn’t be surprising if it does.

 

[Gerdi]

No it doesn't. 15W AMD 5800U is significantly ahead in multi-threaded and on par with single-threaded plus it doesn't have the issue of lacking native software.

Why don't you use a reasonable benchmark like SPEC or Geekbench, both are not heavily optimized for AVX - contrary to Maxxon Cinema?
You would have come to the conclusion that the 5800U is no match for the M1, in particular not at 15W.

 

[leman]

Yes we don’t know what conversations Apple and MS are having behind the scenes or what those will come to. A bare-metal Windows on AS in the future wouldn’t shock me. It might not happen but it wouldn’t be surprising if it does.

I would find it extremely surprising. Who will maintain all the drivers?

Same for Asahi Linux... I very much doubt that they will ever produce a remotely usable and stable driver. So far the Linux community didn’t manage to build a single one, and here we are taking about reverse-engineering a custom TBDR GPU (something nobody except Apple and IMG have experience with) and writing a production quality driver for it...

 

[Dockland]

It beats every i9 and virtually every Intel/AMD processors ever made in single-threaded performance and multi-threaded when going core per core. The M1 has just 4 performance cores (no HT) and has been designed to run fanless, hence, any modern Intel/AMD processor with twice the cores, twice the thermal envelope, twice the size and three times the power consumption, etc. will sure beat the M1 in multi-threaded scenarios when ignoring the different core count and ignoring power and thermals.

You said it best "laptop that lacks enough cooling". is it a problem with the laptop not having enough cooling or that Intel's chips cant keep up performance on a modern laptop? If your "mobile" i7/i9 requires liquid cooling or massive heat sinks and fans to sustain claimed performance, then maybe the problem is the chip, not the laptop.

None of those Intel/AMD systems run fanless or remotely near the thermal envelope of the M1. Perf per watt, Apple Silicon is 2-3 generations ahead.

Speaking of this, do You think ARM and its predecessors will be the future? That x86 slowly going to "die"
Nobody knows of course, but I think that in 5-10 years the majority of our computers will be ARM-based.
Or is there a limit with the ARM architecture, so to speak?

 

[Gerdi]

I would find it extremely surprising. Who will maintain all the drivers?

I think you gave the answer to yourself. The only entity, which could possibly provide drivers would be Apple - this applies to both Linux and Windows.

 

[Gerdi]

Or is there a limit with the ARM architecture, so to speak?

Nope, but there are certainly limits of the x64 architecture compared to ARMv8/9, which it cannot circumvent.