Bootable Windows 10 any time soon?

[flopticalcube]

Zen 3 certainly caught up, but the bulk of Cezanne models (especially the U model) are still yet to be seen, and I haven't seen any if the released model actually available in shops.

AMDs take on Intel's mixed up naming scheme: we'll mix architectures instead of having just confusing names.

 

[bobcomer]

Parallels is a tech preview with known issues and both Chrome and Firefox native implementation are inferior to Safari. How can you be sure that what you are observing is throttling and not, well, suboptimal software?

<chuckle> Blaming throttling on suboptimal software. You might as well just blame software of any kind on throttling.

Anyway, Chrome is definitely the worst at causing stress on a machine, but Safari will too.

No clue why you can't get the same prices I do, probably location.

 

[leman]

<chuckle> Blaming throttling on suboptimal software. You might as well just blame software of any kind on throttling.

That was not my intention. I am merely pointing out that experiencing lag or other problems while using software with known issues cannot be automatically equated with throttling. You can’t talk about throttling without mentioning CPU frequency, power metrics and temperature.

Anyway, Chrome is definitely the worst at causing stress on a machine, but Safari will too.

I usually have close to a hundred tabs open in Safari and the CPU utilization is close to zero, regardless of whether I am using Intel or M1 Mac. Can’t comment on Chrome as I don’t use it too often.

 

[bobcomer]

That was not my intention. I am merely pointing out that experiencing lag or other problems while using software with known issues cannot be automatically equated with throttling. You can’t talk about throttling without mentioning CPU frequency, power metrics and temperature.


I usually have close to a hundred tabs open in Safari and the CPU utilization is close to zero, regardless of whether I am using Intel or M1 Mac. Can’t comment on Chrome as I don’t use it too often.

Ad blocker? I don't run one of those.

As for throttling, give it up, I am.

 

[thedocbwarren]

Almost anything is fast enough for playing any game if you use a decent GPU. I don't want to diss your Ryzen, they are great CPUs, but you argument is just not good enough when you want to make a comprehensive comparative analysis of CPU performance. Luckily enough, there are dedicated people who did those for us

I play ESO under Rosetta, until now it was broken in certain areas. I used the Windows ARM VM for the areas that were broken. The frame-rate was almost the same as Rosetta and similar to my 16 using an eGPU running an RX580.

Given that (and yes ESO is an non-optimal MMO) I'm of the conclusion we are good gaming wise in both environments going forward.

Other games run very well under steam rosetta, mostly so under ARM Windows. iPad games run like lightning on the M1.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Just try running parallels desktop and a vm... (though that's not the only way, just try using Chrome or Firefox with a lot of tabs.)

How many tabs? I have to admit I don't usually have a ton of tabs open, but I have 15 open in Edge now, and nothing?

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Ad blocker? I don't run one of those.

As for throttling, give it up, I am.

I am going to give up the idea that there is throttling affecting other users of M1 Macbooks since you really aren't giving specific verifiable information.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

There might be something wrong with your MBA (or maybe you are very sensitive to certain small changes). The MBA doesn't need much thermal headroom to burst to it's maximal performance (5 watts compared to Tiger Lake 20-25 watts). The only place where it should exhibit throttling is GPU-heavy work or heavy-duty multithreading, and even than the measured throttling is 10-20% (which is still faster than most x86 CPUs on full speed).



As do I. I've been using the M1 MBP and an Intel i9 16" side by side - the M1 wins for almost everything I do, unless it's an embarrassingly parallel task.



Which config are you talking about exactly? I am looking at Lenovo USA website for 16GB, 1TB, HiDPI display machines and I see the following:

X1 Titanium Yoga ($2,469.35)
X1 Carbon Gen 8 — old model with Comet Lake ($1,931.40)
X1 Nano 13" with a decent CPU ($2,207.40)

@bobcomer - As @leman says, it is really hard to get these M1 machines to throttle.

 

[thedocbwarren]

@bobcomer - As @leman says, it is really hard to get these M1 machines to throttle.

Yes I've compiled qemu and node.js on my M1 13 Pro and not a bit of throttle. I've run major full threaded loads along with heavy graphics-intensive gaming (Dues Ex: Mankind Divided.) No throttle.

This machine is a performer! Why I'm not personally fusssed when they scale higher. Faster than my MBP 16 i9.

 

[bobcomer]

I am going to give up the idea that there is throttling affecting other users of M1 Macbooks since you really aren't giving specific verifiable information.

Just because I wont give proof (I have a job and don't even have my M1 with me), doesn't mean that me, and other users, aren't hitting throttling. You're trying to excuse the MBA of something it was designed to do under load, whatever. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Just because I wont give proof (I have a job and don't even have my M1 with me), doesn't mean that me, and other users, aren't hitting throttling. You're trying to excuse the MBA of something it was designed to do under load, whatever. Just because you don't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Then prove it. When you get home show the log and tell us what you were doing. In reviews, that Daring Fireball and others did, you can get it to throttle. It took one reviewer 65 tabs in Chrome. It throttled about 15%. The person said as soon as they closed the tabs the throttling was instantly gone.

That's the thing. It's not that I don't think it isn't there. I don't think it is there to the degree you described initially.

There is no doubt that people CAN get the M1 MBA to throttle, but what I doubt is the normal everyday workflows getting to that point. That is point by us and others. You have to open like 60 tabs or export 4k 60fps video for several minutes. NOT normal workflows. Pro high-end workflows. That was my point. I am actually trying to help you. If yours is really slow doing everyday things then you absolutely, positively need to take it in and get it replaced.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Yes I've compiled qemu and node.js on my M1 13 Pro and not a bit of throttle. I've run major full threaded loads along with heavy graphics-intensive gaming (Dues Ex: Mankind Divided.) No throttle.

This machine is a performer! Why I'm not personally fusssed when they scale higher. Faster than my MBP 16 i9.

Same here! It kicked the crap out of my 15" i7 2015 MBP with 16 GB of RAM. I mean smoked it. It doesn't even get warm or have a fan! It is completely crazy!

 

[thedocbwarren]

Then prove it. When you get home show the log and tell us what you were doing. In reviews, that Daring Fireball and others did, you can get it to throttle. It took one reviewer 65 tabs in Chrome. It throttled about 15%. The person said as soon as they closed the tabs the throttling was instantly gone.

That's the thing. It's not that I don't think it isn't there. I don't think it is there to the degree you described initially.

There is no doubt that people CAN get the M1 MBA to throttle, but what I doubt is the normal everyday workflows getting to that point. That is point by us and others. You have to open like 60 tabs or export 4k 60fps video for several minutes. NOT normal workflows. Pro high-end workflows. That was my point. I am actually trying to help you. If yours is really slow doing everyday things then you absolutely, positively need to take it in and get it replaced.

The fascinating thing is, I throttled all the bloody time with my 16! That thing is so freaking hot it can't handle itself. I used an RX580 eGPU (yes same performance as 5500m) for the sake of heat transfer! It STILL is slower than the M1!

 

[Maconplasma]

That's the thing. It's not that I don't think it isn't there. I don't think it is there to the degree you described initially.

There is no doubt that people CAN get the M1 MBA to throttle, but what I doubt is the normal everyday workflows getting to that point. That is point by us and others. You have to open like 60 tabs or export 4k 60fps video for several minutes. NOT normal workflows. Pro high-end workflows. That was my point. I am actually trying to help you. If yours is really slow doing everyday things then you absolutely, positively need to take it in and get it replaced.

Exactly. If you have to get it to throttle then it's a non issue.

 

[bobcomer]

Then prove it.

Sorry guy, that's not the way to do things. When you're arguing with someone about their experiences, all you end up doing is ticking them off and getting no information in return.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Sorry guy, that's not the way to do things. When you're arguing with someone about their experiences, all you end up doing is ticking them off and getting no information in return.

Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure that readers of the thread didn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience was the only experience. I also wanted to ensure that you were aware that if your MBA is throttling to that degree, you should get it looked at.

Personally, I really don't care what you do, I was just working on those two ideas. One was to help you make sure you didn't have a lemon and the second was to make sure other people knew how beastly the little guy really is.

 

[bobcomer]

I just wanted to make sure that readers of the thread didn't make the mistake of thinking that your experience was the only experience.

And that's okay. I never claimed to be a typical user! I have way too much to do with computers.

I also wanted to ensure that you were aware that if your MBA is throttling to that degree, you should get it looked at.

That's really not necessary, the load I put on it, it really doesn't surprise me that it throttles. I'm running VM's on a machine that has only passive cooling, which is kind of insane. Just last night the first performance core hit 100C. And the Air handles it better than I could have expected. It really is a nice machine, but it's not a miracle.

As for the browsers causing problems, there are things I could do to mitigate that, but I pretty much count it as part of my job to see things the way my users would see them, even when they are on machines I never see.

 

[dmccloud]

AMDs take on Intel's mixed up naming scheme: we'll mix architectures instead of having just confusing names.

It makes sense - most users only care about performance, not the detailed tech specs under the hood...

 

[flopticalcube]

It makes sense - most users only care about performance, not the detailed tech specs under the hood...

Right.... but confusingly, the 5600U is faster in single threaded (most) workloads than the 5700U... so naming isn't even reflective of performance.

 

[theSeb]

Then prove it. When you get home show the log and tell us what you were doing. In reviews, that Daring Fireball and others did, you can get it to throttle. It took one reviewer 65 tabs in Chrome. It throttled about 15%. The person said as soon as they closed the tabs the throttling was instantly gone.

That's the thing. It's not that I don't think it isn't there. I don't think it is there to the degree you described initially.

There is no doubt that people CAN get the M1 MBA to throttle, but what I doubt is the normal everyday workflows getting to that point. That is point by us and others. You have to open like 60 tabs or export 4k 60fps video for several minutes. NOT normal workflows. Pro high-end workflows. That was my point. I am actually trying to help you. If yours is really slow doing everyday things then you absolutely, positively need to take it in and get it replaced.

Well, thermal throttling is obviously there. Chromium build is 2 minutes faster on a Mini vs an MBA. Mini will obviously have much less thermal throttling. This is an intensive CPU task for over 20 minutes. As you say though, that would mean for general day to day use the thermal throttling is nowhere near as noticeable as it was on Intel Macs. I would get an MBA for my portable needs, but I already had an MBA in this shape, so I am waiting for the rumoured redesign, especially since work related travel is off the table for the foreseeable future anyway.

Fun fact: Macbook Pro i9 with 64 GBs of RAM finished about 9 minutes after the MBA and the fans sounded like they are about to launch the computer into outer space.

 

[eltoslightfoot]

Well, thermal throttling is obviously there. Chromium build is 2 minutes faster on a Mini vs an MBA. Mini will obviously have much less thermal throttling. This is an intensive CPU task for over 20 minutes. As you say though, that would mean for general day to day use the thermal throttling is nowhere near as noticeable as it was on Intel Macs. I would get an MBA for my portable needs, but I already had an MBA in this shape, so I am waiting for the rumoured redesign, especially since work related travel is off the table for the foreseeable future anyway.

Fun fact: Macbook Pro i9 with 64 GBs of RAM finished about 9 minutes after the MBA and the fans sounded like they are about to launch the computer into outer space.

Exactly. I am a writer, programmer, blogger, and artist. I use Devonthink, Office, Scrivener, Omnifocus, XCode, Affinity products, etc...

I don't need to have 60 tabs open on Chrome. I don't output 4k 60fps video for hours at a time. For me this little fanless marvel is amazing. If I get to posting Youtube videos at 1080p it can even do that just fine.

For what your average pro needs this thing is fantastic. And fanless. lt kicks the crap out of my i7 16GB RAM 2015 MBP easily--even while throttled!!!

Edited to add: That was my original point. Instead of the person I was responding to giving useful advice like hey, even when this thing throttles it is still badass especially for the wussiest macbook in the product line, it was this thing sucks--it throttles and I will leave that up to your imagination. Your post gave a specific example, which I appreciate. Thank you!

 

[dmccloud]

Right.... but confusingly, the 5600U is faster in single threaded (most) workloads than the 5700U... so naming isn't even reflective of performance.

AMD kinda took the Intel approach to the 5700U, it appears: just throw more cores at the problem. I also just noticed that the 5600U is on the new Zen 3 architecture, while the 5700U is apparently still on Zen 2. That seems off to me...

AMD Ryzen 5 5600U vs. AMD Ryzen 7 5700U - Benchmark, Test and Specs

AMD Ryzen 5 5600U vs. AMD Ryzen 7 5700U - Benchmark, Geekbench 5, Cinebench R20, Cinebench R23, Cinebench R15 and FP32 iGPU (GFLOPS) benchmark results

www.cpu-monkey.com

 

[leman]

AMD kinda took the Intel approach to the 5700U, it appears: just throw more cores at the problem.

That has been AMD approach for the last 10 years or so...

 

[flopticalcube]

AMD kinda took the Intel approach to the 5700U, it appears: just throw more cores at the problem. I also just noticed that the 5600U is on the new Zen 3 architecture, while the 5700U is apparently still on Zen 2. That seems off to me...

AMD Ryzen 5 5600U vs. AMD Ryzen 7 5700U - Benchmark, Test and Specs

AMD Ryzen 5 5600U vs. AMD Ryzen 7 5700U - Benchmark, Geekbench 5, Cinebench R20, Cinebench R23, Cinebench R15 and FP32 iGPU (GFLOPS) benchmark results

www.cpu-monkey.com

Thus my comment on mixed architectures. To be fair on AMD its only the 5600U/5700U where there is a small amount of confusion. At least they are no longer mixing entire product lines as they did before with APUs being previous gen to the CPUs.

 

[dmccloud]

That has been AMD approach for the last 10 years or so...

At least AMD was able to release 7nm parts. Intel can't even get their desktop lineup on 10nm...