Building a new desktop

[maflynn]

Toying with starting a new project - and one idea is building out a new desktop. I've not done that in years and being trapped in the house for the foreseeable future thanks to the pandemic, well I might as well keep busy with something and this is on my short list. Even if I don't pull the trigger, the research has been and continues to be interesting and fun. I'm not sure if I'll make this a monolithic thread of all my tasks, i.e., CPU selection, motherboard, GPU etc or make separate threads for each. I guess I'll see how it starts off ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

CPU and Motherboard.
I'm grouping these together, because I've largely decided on the Intel I7-10700K CPU. No knock on the Ryzen 7 3700X but for the price and peace of mind, as my experience has been all intel. Plus the reviews I've seen (not many) failed to make a compelling reason for the Ryzen

Motherboard, here's where things get much more complicated given the sheer volume of motherboards, ATX, ITX, Micro-ATX, gaming, budget, enthusiast, etc etc

To simplify, I'm looking at an ATX, though given that I'll probably only need a single slot for a GPU, an ITX form factor may be worthwhile to investigate.

For ATX, I'm largely focusing on MSI and Asus ROG. From what I've researched the MSI MEG Z490 UNIFY and ASUS ROG Strix Z490-E Gaming are comparable and are at the 300 dollar price point.

Both are 6 layer PCBs I believe, the Asus has more ports on the back panel, where as the MSI has a Flash Bio button and clear CMOS button. The MSI offers 3 M.2 slots where as the Asus 2

From watching Buildzoids videos, he really like the Unify especially if you'll be over-clocking the memory. I'll probably doing some very basic over clocking. The Asus appears to have a better power delivery capacitor setup, but both should not cause the VRM to overheat with the 10700K

Its a virtual tie, though I am leaning towards the MSI due to the black look of the MB and no wild colors or RGB. However, any input on Asus vs. MSI would be helpful.

========================== LIST of Components ================================

 

[GoldfishRT]

Just an FYI, the GPU market is bad right now. Very little availability and prices even for year plus old hardware is sometimes over release MSRP.

 

[I7guy]

The bottom motherboard (Asus) has more USB ports at the expense of a clear CMOS and FLASH button. 3 vs 2 m.2 slots? I think it's a toss-up...especially if you do your planning and determine your capacities. However, if you are going to be messing with motherboard timings for overtiming, that clear cmos button is a life-saver...decisions, decisions.

I posted here I just finished a build. The mistake I made was the case, which ties into the cooling solution. I opted for an i9, which has higher thermals than the i7. (And, imo, system integration, just works better with intel, and the z490 chipset is pretty good)

While I did a lot of research, my last computer build was a while ago. I ended up by purchasing the Antec three hundred two. And while a good atx case the compromise was an AIO 240mm or 360mm cooling solution does not fit in the case.

So I was forced to opt for the corsair h80iv2, which is barely optimal with little headroom for overclocking the cpu. (And I note you did mention overclocking the memory). So depending on where you want to take your overclocking efforts should determine your cpu cooling solution. Whether air or aio cooling just something to think about.

And yes, the GPU (edit: market) is borked. I used the GPU from my old build. And I also notice the prices of components that I paid for in the 3rd quarter are now higher.

 

[GoldfishRT]

You know, I'm real happy with the performance level of my Ryzen 5 3600 but it has been a real PITA knocking out all the weirdness with it and even still I'm overall dissatisfied with it. Was seeing ridiculous temps and voltages across two motherboards and two Windows installations. It's cool and quiet now but at the expense of always being locked a 3.6Ghz, no turbo and no downclocking. Definitely not a plug-and-play style experience.

(And, imo, system integration, just works better with intel, and the z490 chipset is pretty good)

 

[maflynn]

Just an FYI, the GPU market is bad right now

I know, and that doesn't really bother me right now. I'm in no hurry for this, and I also have a spare 2060 Super not really being used. That will hold me over until I decide an upgrade to that GPU

 

[retta283]

Red USB ports? I must be out of the loop again... Haven't built a PC since 2006, much different scene back then. I'm enjoying my Dell XPS, and am closer all the time to selling off my 2020 iMac. If I do, I will be forced to learn again what is current and good, for I will build again. Good luck with your build.

You mentioned RGB, personally I cannot stand it. Too many dummy lights coming off tech already in my office. When the lights are off, I want to focus on the screen.

 

[maflynn]

The mistake I made was the case

I haven't gotten to the part where I'm talking about a case But I'm looking for one that is best for air cooled, and I'll not be getting an I9

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Just an FYI, the GPU market is bad right now. Very little availability and prices even for year plus old hardware is sometimes over release MSRP.

This is correct. The GPU market has been terrible for several months and continues to get worse. Cryptocurrency prices have skyrocketed and the miners are grabbing up all of the newest generation GPUs. I'm guessing that GPU supply-demand equilibrium will not approach normalcy for at least six months.

Both Nvidia Ampere and AMD Big Navi have basically been paper launches.

As GoldfishRT has noted, the previous generation GPUs are commanding premium prices. A Sapphire Radeon RX 5700XT -- if you can find one -- is going for about $100 above its normal MSRP. The older ones with Polaris chips are ridiculously overpriced, some of these cards that should be going for less than a hundred bucks are near $300, if you can find even find one for sale. I bought a Sapphire RX 550 2GB card in August 2020 for $65, probably the last month that GPUs were selling near MSRP.

The AMD Ryzen 7 3700X is a fine CPU and as a 65W part doesn't require special cooling (AMD includes the Wraith Prism cooler with 65W CPUs). The problem is it's pretty much sold out or selling way above launch MSRP. And you can forget about all of the Zen 3 CPUs for the next several months too. There is no special fidgeting or adjustment necessary for the 3700X, mine runs at 102% of the GPU-Z benchmark for that specific processor.

I have three custom builds (the first and third are idle):

• ASUS ROG Strix B550-E ATX board in a Lian-Li Lancool II Mesh Performance case (GPU TBD, likely a GeForce RTX 3080 variant)
• MSI MAG B550M Mortar micro-ATX board in a SilverStone PS15 case (Nvidia GeForce RTX 2070 SUPER with EVGA AIO 120mm CLC)
• ASUS ROG Strix B550-I mini-ITX board in an NZXT H1 case (Sapphire Pulse RX 550 2GB)

Only the micro-ATX MSI-SilverStone system is running because I am still waiting on Zen 3 CPU availability. At that point I will move the 3700X to the NZXT case which will become my daily driver. I'm actually waiting for a Zen 3 CPU that doesn't exist: a 65W part with 8 cores/16 threads.

Eventually the ATX system will become my primary gaming computer. I might maintain the middle system with its 2070 SUPER for older games and VR titles.

I have the cash set aside for the 3080 purchase and a couple of Zen 3 CPUs. I'm just waiting for stock availability at REASONABLE prices. I am not paying a scalper a dime.

All three cases I bought have worked out pretty well.

The NZXT H1 is more like a starter kit since it includes a 650W PSU and a 140mm AIO CLC for the CPU; it is also pre-wired.

I had to mod the SilverStone PS15 micro-ATX case; the hard drive cage was riveted so I carefully drilled out the rivets and removed the cage. That provided more room for the power cables and better airflow. This case supports a 240mm cooler on the front and a 120mm cooler on the rear. You can stick two 120mm fans on the top but everything in the case is a really tight fit.

The Lian-Li ATX case is a dream to work with. It supports 240mm, 280mm and 360mm AIO coolers on the front, a 120mm AIO cooler (or fan) on the back, 2x120mm fans (or one 240mm radiator) or 2x140mm fans on the top and two 120mm fans inside the case above the power supply compartment.

For the CPU AIO, I had to decide between 280mm and 360mm radiators. Ultimately I decided to go with a 360mm CLC. Because this radiator is longer the bottom fan pushes air into the Lian-Li's PSU compartment. Since I removed the HDD cage the air blows directly onto the PSU. Currently my Lian-Li build has five Noctua NF-S12 fans plus the three 120mm fans for the CPU AIO CLC.

All three case designs focus on airflow -- especially the Lian-Li.

 

[velocityg4]

I haven't gotten to the part where I'm talking about a case But I'm looking for one that is best for air cooled, and I'll not be getting an I9

Since you're still waffling on form factor for the motherboard. Nor does it sound like it matters much which form factor you choose. I'd suggest starting with the case.

Find that perfect case. Once you choose that. Then you can choose the parts which fill it best.

Now if it was some workstation with needs for tons of cooling, lots of HDD and many cards. Then I'd say choose the parts first.

Just keep in mind. Large cases generally mean you can keep the computer quiet. Smaller cases generally mean the fans need to spin faster. Thus more noise.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Just keep in mind. Large cases generally mean you can keep the computer quiet. Smaller cases generally mean the fans need to spin faster. Thus more noise.

This was something I kept in mind when I started thinking about building PCs back in April 2020, initially as a suitable home project during COVID-19.

More fans = more air flow = cooler temperatures = quieter operation. My micro-ATX build is fully loaded with five 120mm fans, all of them Noctuas that replaced the original fans plus a smaller Noctua fan for the GPU VRM.

I also deliberately chose the best performing 65W CPU rather than jumping to a 95W or 105W part. All of this makes for a very quiet build even when I am gaming.

The most time consuming part was optimizing the fan curves. After I modded my Geforce RTX 2070 SUPER with an NZXT Kraken G12 GPU bracket and an EVGA AIO 120mm CLC cooler, the GPU no longer controlled its own cooling. After some careful thought plus trial-and-error, I ended up controlling the GPU cooling fans (AIO cooler and GPU VRM) using the MOS temperature sensor which is most closely tied to GPU activity.

None of the fans run at 100% even when the system is maxxed out.

I'm glad I started my builds in the summer of 2020 when component availability and pricing was still reasonable.

There's a glut of NAND chips so SSDs are pretty easy to score. DDR4 RAM isn't all that bad either since it is mature technology; DDR5 is around the corner.

Today latest generation GPUs and CPUs are nearly impossible to find. With the new year, additional tariffs have kicked in and prices will go up, not just for those but also motherboards. There have been other component shortages like quality PSUs.

 

[I7guy]

[...]

The most time consuming part was optimizing the fan curves. After I modded my Geforce RTX 2070 SUPER with an NZXT Kraken G12 GPU bracket and an EVGA AIO 120mm CLC cooler, the GPU no longer controlled its own cooling. After some careful thought plus trial-and-error, I ended up controlling the GPU cooling fans (AIO cooler and GPU VRM) using the MOS temperature sensor which is most closely tied to GPU activity.[...]

I've seen videos on doing that. Not a level of modding I want to go to. Of course, if one could actually buy a gpu in early January it would be great.

None of the fans run at 100% even when the system is maxxed out.

I'm glad I started my builds in the summer of 2020 when component availability and pricing was still reasonable.

There's a glut of NAND chips so SSDs are pretty easy to score. DDR4 RAM isn't all that bad either since it is mature technology; DDR5 is around the corner.

Today latest generation GPUs and CPUs are nearly impossible to find. With the new year, additional tariffs have kicked in and prices will go up, not just for those but also motherboards. There have been other component shortages like quality PSUs.

Yep it's bad out there in terms of the person who wants to build their own pc.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Its a virtual tie, though I am leaning towards the MSI due to the black look of the MB and no wild colors or RGB. However, any input on Asus vs. MSI would be helpful.

I solved this dilemma by buying both.

I'm a longtime ASUS fan. I used their motherboards exclusively in the late Nineties, long before building custom PCs for gaming became a commonplace activity. They didn't even have gaming-focused brands like ROG Strix or TUF Gaming back then.

The entire ROG Strix package is pretty swank. My two ROG Strix boards included a lot of little cables that the MSI Mortar board did not include.

Like I did back in the Nineties I started by selecting a motherboard.

Each board is a bit of a compromise regarding connectors.

As far as I'm concerned the ASUS ROG Strix B550-I mini-ITX board is pretty much the ideal motherboard for the NZXT H1. The H1 case has no expansion possibilities so you want a board that can connect to all of the cables provided by the pre-wired case.

For my ATX case, I originally purchased the ASUS ROG Strix B550-F Gaming. It was fifty dollars cheaper than the B550-E and I soon discovered why once I started plugging things in. There is no USB 3.2 Gen2 front panel connector on the motherboard (to plug in a front panel USB-C port) so if your case has that, you need a PCI card to provide that connector. I returned it and paid the extra for the B550-E which has that port but lost the S/PDIP audio connector. I bought a $15 adapter that connects to a motherboard header and now I can have coaxial RCA digital audio out as well the S/PDIF optical connection.

Both ASUS and MSI BIOS have their own idiosyncrasies. I like the MSI BIOS's fan adjustment system more than the ASUS BIOS but once the BIOS is set up I don't spend any time there. I am not overclocking my CPU at this point although apparently the Ryzen 7 3700X is friendly to overclocking.

ASUS has fewer offerings in the micro-ATX size and I couldn't find the ideal board from them so I ended up with the MSI Mortar.

 

[I7guy]

I haven't gotten to the part where I'm talking about a case But I'm looking for one that is best for air cooled, and I'll not be getting an I9

It's a bit of chicken and egg in that does one pick the motherboard first or the case first. The way I did this last build is I picked the MB and cpu first, case second, power supply, then memory, m.2s', fans and aio cooler. (and as I said I purchased the wrong case).

If I had known in advance I would have gotten a bigger case that could fit an atx style motherboard.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

I've seen videos on doing that. Not a level of modding I want to go to. Of course, if one could actually buy a gpu in early January it would be great.

I was a bit apprehensive about it even after watching some videos that made it look easy. I spent a couple of months deliberating and waiting for an officially supported CLC to purchase.

The latter never happened. There were Corsair and Coolermaster (?) models that were supported by the NZXT bracket but they were always sold out.

I looked more carefully at the bracket design and realized that it required a specific Asetek CLC CPU heatsink, a particular bayonet style mount. My guess is that this style of AIO CPU heatsink was in the midst of being discontinued so manufacturers weren't building any more. I ended up with the EVGA AIO 120mm CLC based on Amazon customer comments that said it worked fine with the NZXT Kraken G12 bracket.

The actual mod is pretty easy if you don't drink a pot of coffee beforehand like I foolishly did. I took copious photos during the process for my own archives (noting screw removal steps, thermal pad placement, etc.) and kept all of the parts should I attempt to reassemble this GPU back to its original state.

The 120mm AIO cooler is the right size for this particular GPU and its heat generation. Again the AIO radiator fan never needs at 100% even when the GPU is overclocked and maxxed out at 107% load. I swapped out the EVGA fan with a Noctua NF-F12 (high static pressure) which runs around 80% speed. The GPU radiator pump runs at full speed all the time: same as my CPU radiator pump.

One unanticipated benefit is that the NZXT Kraken G12 bracket + VRM fan is considerably lighter in weight than Nvidia's heavy cooler. There's no threat of GPU card sag with the NZXT Kraken G12 mod.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

It's a bit of chicken and egg in that does one pick the motherboard first or the case first. The way I did this last build is I picked the MB and cpu first, case second, power supply, then memory, m.2s', fans and aio cooler. (and as I said I purchased the wrong case).

If I had known in advance I would have gotten a bigger case that could fit an atx style motherboard.

This is what I discovered with the SilverStone PS15 micro-ATX case. It would have been a far easier case to work in if it were just one centimeter wider and one centimeter taller providing an additional five millimeters of clearance above and below the motherboard and an extra centimeter in front of the board.

As is apparently common with compact builds I ended up ripping half of the system apart about 7-8 times to add a cable, move a part, etc.

The Lian-Li ATX case is far easier to work in but it's also much bigger. It was well reviewed by Tom's Hardware:

Lian Li Lancool II Mesh Performance Review: What a Winner Looks Like

A great chassis for continuously changing builds

www.tomshardware.com

From a Wife Acceptance Factor standpoint, the Lian-Li case scores much lower. Luckily I'm a bachelor, no one is grading my system based on that criteria. If the Lian-Li case's size works for your space, this would be my top recommendation for a custom build PC. When my system is complete and fully functional, it will reside under my desk.

There are better micro-ATX cases than the SilverStone PS15 but it was well priced and it works. My primary requirement was compatibility with a 240mm AIO cooler on the front plus the three 120mm fans elsewhere in the case. With all five fan locations occupied my PS15 case temperature is quite acceptable. The single 120mm stock fan is woefully inadequate per the Tom's Hardware review.

Silverstone Precision PS15 Case Review: Compact and Inexpensive

Silverstone's Precision PS15 is a budget-friendly compact PC case that has all the benefits and drawbacks you'd expect to find in a case of this size and price.

www.tomshardware.com

The micro-ATX cases have a lot of compromises particularly in the number of fans and their placement, AIO radiator compatibility, and overall thermal design. It is advisable to take a very methodical approach when selecting a case of this size.

My methodology is to pick the motherboard first and then the GPU.

 

[velocityg4]

It's a bit of chicken and egg in that does one pick the motherboard first or the case first. The way I did this last build is I picked the MB and cpu first, case second, power supply, then memory, m.2s', fans and aio cooler. (and as I said I purchased the wrong case).

If I had known in advance I would have gotten a bigger case that could fit an atx style motherboard.

I got the case first. I knew I wanted a PowerMac G5 case. Whatever parts I went for would have to fit. Not that it mattered much as it could handle a full ATX motherboard. I've also built quite a few computers and had performed a G4 mATX conversion previously. So, I pretty well knew what I was in for.

 

[I7guy]

This is what I discovered with the SilverStone PS15 micro-ATX case. It would have been a far easier case to work in if it were just one centimeter wider and one centimeter taller providing an additional five millimeters of clearance around the motherboard.

As is apparently common with compact builds I ended up ripping half of the system apart about 7-8 times to add a cable, move a part, etc.

The Lian-Li ATX case is far easier to work in but it's also much bigger. From a Wife Acceptance Factor standpoint, the Lian-Li case scores much lower. Luckily I'm a bachelor, no one is grading my system based on that criteria.

There are better micro-ATX cases than the SilverStone PS15 but it was well priced and it works. My primary requirement was compatibility with a 240mm AIO cooler on the front plus the three 120mm fans elsewhere in the case.

Totally agree. The bigger cases have nice cable management, power supply placement, 3.5 drive management etc, and you don't have to rip apart the build to get to the innards. But you pay for that.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

For giggles I just looked up the Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 5700 XT price on Amazon. This previous generation GPU released 18 months ago (July 2019) is currently going for $850. As a Navi card this GPU should realistically be commanding maybe $275-300 tops. That's more than the $799 MSRP for the Nvidia GeForce RTX 3080 (which is impossible to find). Hilarious!

A few months ago I bought a wimpy Sapphire Pulse Radeon RX 550 2GB card for $65 (about $15 less than the original launch price nearly four years ago) since I won't buy a desktop CPU with integrated graphics. This card is so wimpy it doesn't even have a power connector. It gets all of the electricity it needs from the motherboard via the PCI slot. Today that Lexa Pro card is being offered by a third-party seller on Amazon for an outrageous $195, a 200% markup. Four. Year. Old. GPU.

 

[Thysanoptera]

No knock on the Ryzen 7 3700X but for the price and peace of mind, as my experience has been all intel. Plus the reviews I've seen (not many) failed to make a compelling reason for the Ryzen

I've had only Intel CPUs since 2004 AMD Sempron. Last year I've build 4 pcs (2 kids, and 2 for me) and all are AMD. There is nothing to be afraid of, works fine out of the box. 3xB550, 1xX570, 3600, 3700x, 5800x, 5900x, 2x3080 (FE and FTW3). It is faster than any Intel offering (the Zen3 at least), while consuming half the power. 8700k is right now my home server, replacing 10 year old Xeon.

To get Zen 3 and Ampere I was on some discords that send out notifications. FTW3 was from EVGA queue. I had 3060Ti also but had to take it back because of faulty fan.

I mean if you want 8 core you can still get 3700x from bestbuy today for $325, B550 mobo for $100 and spend the savings on better RAM/SSD/GPU or rainbow puking case. There is a reason Intel is rapidly losing market share.

 

[LeeW]

When I was upgrading a few months back, I read a lot of reviews and articles about CPU. My intention was to go with AMD as they seemed to be good if not better than intel. Whilst some seem to say that is true, overall, there appears to be little difference still, not enough to say one is 'way better' than the other.

I stuck with intel and the i7-10700 and have been very happy so far, although I doubt I would have felt any different had I went for AMD really.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Whilst some seem to say that is true, overall, there appears to be little difference still, not enough to say one is 'way better' than the other.

At least not until you look at performance per watt, once you do - yeah - one is way better than the other.

 

[LeeW]

one is way better than the other.

I think what it comes down to is preference or comfort. A bit like someone on these forums saying they wouldn't use Windows or an Android phone. I have always used intel, at no point have I thought my chosen CPU is not good enough or is holding me back in any way. Would I notice the performance per watt in use? Probably not, in a desktop.

 

[Thysanoptera]

I think what it comes down to is preference or comfort. A bit like someone on these forums saying they wouldn't use Windows or an Android phone. I have always used intel, at no point have I thought my chosen CPU is not good enough or is holding me back in any way. Would I notice the performance per watt in use? Probably not, in a desktop.

Windows and Android are two different animals. AMD and Intel make the same product, just one of them is cheaper, faster and more power efficient. I don't have any special allegiance to either of them, but I prefer to buy what is best at the moment, rather than just the same stuff as I was always buying.

I simply dispute the statement that it is difficult to say which one is better. No it is not, and it is not even close.

 

[LeeW]

I simply dispute the statement that it is difficult to say which one is better. No it is not, and it is not even close.

That's fair and I am not disputing what you say, just that I like many others don't look as deep as PPW, but generally pick what you know unless there is something clear and obvious for someone like me a 'general consumer' to easily see, PPW is not and too technical and uninteresting for my to care about, right or wrong.

I am happy with my i7-10700 but acknowledge if I went with the AMD equivalent I would likely have been just as happy.

 

[I7guy]

[...]
I simply dispute the statement that it is difficult to say which one is better. No it is not, and it is not even close.

It actually isn't as simple as that. Performance per watt is just one measurement as 0-60 is just one measurement of a cars' speed. One's individual use case may have one processor being better than another processor in practical terms.