Building a new desktop

[Erehy Dobon]

Performance Per Watt isn't really that important to Joe Consumer's desktop PC. It's much more important for mobile/battery-powered devices (smartphones, tablets, notebook computers) and people whose operations include a substantial electricity bill as a major part of their recurring costs.

The latter why ARM CPUs are making great strides in datacenter/HPC environments. It also explains why cryptocurrency miners favor chips that aren't x86.

For the average PC gamer, it really doesn't matter if one desktop PC's CPU uses $5 more electricity per month than a less powerful CPU.

As for benchmarks, it's really shortsighted to focus on synthetic benchmarks or individual statistical measurements like GPU TFLOPs. There's much more to the overall gaming performance than just the CPU and GPU.

When I started my first builds last summer, I decided to go with AMD despite that Intel CPUs historically had better single-core performance. AMD has crushed Intel for years in multi-threaded performance but most games don't take advantage of that.

I went with AMD because PCIe 4.0 was supported by the CPU and the newest motherboard chipsets. Most importantly this meant blazingly fast SSD performance. Even today, there is no consumer-grade Intel-based motherboard that supports PCIe 4.0. They are coming in the near future with Rocket Lake.

All three of my motherboards have two m.2 PCIe 4.0 Gen 4 slots apiece. With AMD's Zen 3 CPUs, their single-core IPC performance now crushes anything Intel currently has on the market. Whether or not Intel can leapfrog past Zen 3 with Rocket Lake remains to be seen.

I'm populating my three builds with Sabrent Rocket m.2 drives as boot drives and relying on less expensive m.2 drives for my media libraries (mostly games) where read performance is far more important than write performance. If I need more storage space, I'll add a SATA SSD but that's usually for stuff like older/smaller games and video.

A lot of people who build gaming PCs seem to fixate on one or two measurements and don't have the ability to see the big picture. Someone will rattle off how great Radeon GPUs perform in raw rasterization but ignore features like ray traced reflections.

 

[ctjack]

At least AMD is not changing its' sockets every season like Intel. So if you have current MB with 3700x, you could also plug anything from 5000 series down the road, while with Intel there is no halfway upgrades.

 

[throAU]

From watching Buildzoids videos, he really like the Unify especially if you'll be over-clocking the memory. I'll probably doing some very basic over clocking. The Asus appears to have a better power delivery capacitor setup, but both should not cause the VRM to overheat with the 10700K

Be aware, buildzoid evaluates things from the perspective of "extreme overclocking" using liquid nitrogen and other sub-ambient cooling methods.

Just because buildzoid doesn't like a board, doesn't mean it isn't a great board and plenty for ambient cooling - it just depends on your criteria.

Not sure how long you've been following his content, but he even has a video on this specifically - his needs are quite specific (e.g., he only needs X USB ports, a reset button on the board, sub ambient support, etc.).

YMMV, and things like USB port quantity, location, onboard sound quality, etc. may be more important for you than things he raves about that are beyond the requirements of most regular folks.



That said, good luck finding a GPU at the moment.

It's nuts. Anything better than an RX580 is basically out of stock and has been since november.


I haven't run an MSI board before yet, but ASUS generally have very good BIOS support. They're on my sh*t-list though due to abandoning support for a NIC they claimed had linux support that i purchased and the MX299 monitor i purchased basically being held together with double-sided tape and falling apart constantly.


But their boards are solid and they get prompt BIOS updates.

 

[maflynn]

Be aware, buildzoid evaluates things

Good to know, I did start to see what you mean, as I was reviewing a number of his Asus and MSI YTs

Just because buildzoid doesn't like a board, doesn't mean it isn't a great board and plenty for ambient cooling - it just depends on your criteria.

No question, that's just one resource I'm leaning on. Since I won't be Ocing a lot, maybe I'll not even OC at all, who knows, I'll keep in mind his preference.

 

[maflynn]

I mentioned in in my OP, I wanted to consider mini-ITX form factor and while I give up on expansion, I gain the ability to put the computer on my desk. Since I'll not looking to add any additional expansion cards (I think the last expansion card I added to a computer was a modem, back in the 90s ) The ITX is an option, though I am concerned about air-flow/cooling.

For the Mini ITX form factor, I will go with a MSI Z490i Unify, it seems that card has a bit more room around the CPU die for coolers then the ASUS ROG Strix variant.

For cases I'm leaning towards the Lian Li PC-tu150 for 100 dollars It comes in brushed alu, black and whit. The handle on the top, is interesting, though it does descend into the top case and not be seen. I have my choice in a glass side panel, or non-glass for increased air flow This would would basically take the place of where my Egpu sits




For ATX, This case below is why I would stick with an ATX build. One major factor in building a PC is that I want it to be quiet. My last tower build was just too noisy. I chose poorly on the fans and CPU cooler and it sounded like a jet taking off.

The BeQuiet PURE BASE 500DX for 100 dollars is not only elegant looking (the RGB isn't over the top), it offers excellent cooling, I haven't gotten to the CPU cooler part of my build, that will come later, but overall I much prefer an air cooler instead of an AIO for reasons that I'll get into in that subsequent build


I updated my original post and I'll keep updating it with a running list of components.

 

[LeeW]

That's a really nice case, I like it in white.

 

[MBAir2010]

has or can anyone build an Apple computer system from scratch?
i read about computer enthusiasts building systems for windows or linux only.
i understand Apple OSX needs a patch to run on bare hardware.

 

[Thysanoptera]

The ITX is an option, though I am concerned about air-flow/cooling.

Then maybe you should consider a CPU that literally dumps half the heat into the chassis as 10700k while providing same performance and being cheaper and readily available.

Don’t be afraid of change.

 

[maflynn]

has or can anyone build an Apple computer system from scratch?

You really can't as Apple is the sole parts provider and they don't really permit hobbyists to build out their systems

Then maybe you should consider a CPU that literally dumps half the heat into the chassis as 10700k while providing same performance and being cheaper and readily available.

I just want to add more meat to the bones so to speak. I'm not down on the Ryzen but here's what I'm seeing. Let me know what you think.

i7-10700k 8 core/16T 125W $379
Ryzen 3700X 8 core/16T 65W $325
Ryzen 3900X 12 core/24T 105W $500
Ryzen 5800X 8 core/16T 105W$450

From the benchmarks that I see, the 10700k beats the 3700X in nearly all of them (its at the same price point and core/thread count). What it does have is a superior TDP. I've not done any research on the heat of the I7, but it seems the i9 temps have surprised some reviewers like LTT. I'll be looking into temps for the i7 next.

The 3900X which has more cores, threads, does beat the i7-10700k, but it is more expensive, so much so, I'm not really willing to spend that much money. Similarly the 5800X while its price under the 3900x, its still pricey, even if it does beat the I7 but like the 3900X its TDP is up there close to the I7. I may circle back on the 5800X but I'm not so sure

 

[Thysanoptera]

I just want to add more meat to the bones so to speak. I'm not down on the Ryzen but here's what I'm seeing. Let me know what you think.

This is about 3700x vs 10700k:

1. I7 is definitely faster in gaming, but if gaming is your focus then $300 5600x (if you can get your hands on it) would be the best.
2. Ryzen benchmark performance relies heavily on RAM, much more than i7. You can have two reviewers running same comparison coming to different conclusion just because they use different RAM. Example - AnandTech uses 3200 C16 and 3700x is visibly slower than 10700k. Techspot uses 3200C14 and it is pretty much a tie, in the same tests. A decent 3600 kit is all you need.
3. The TDP is not everything, the i7 scores are achieved with PL2 of 225W and it gets there. The 3700x barely gets above 80W. Intel is misleading with the TDP values, as it always has been, AMD's numbers are much more closer to real usage. So budget in a beefier PSU when going for i7.
4. i7 temps are good because it is a large chip manufactured in outdated process with soldered IHS. So you can achieve high heat transfers between the die and heatsink (dQ=k*A*dT, large A for i7, small A for Ryzen), but still you need to get rid of all that heat from the chassis. I have 5900x with 360mm cooler in my main rig, and when loaded I get up to 70C (but dead silent). With i7 you end up with higher temps inside the chassis that will impact the GPU.
5.The Ryzen temps may be higher than i7 with the same cooling solution, even if it is producing half the heat because the die is smaller. Remember transition from Sandy Bridge to IVY Bridge?
6. Smaller power requirements = you don't need fancy $300 motherboard to have stable system.
7. 3700x comes with a decent stock cooler, which if you don't plan on overclocking (which in Ryzen's case doesn't really yield good results) is all you need. Money saved.

Since you're bouncing between ITX and ATX - why not mATX? Small but can still use regular PSU, rather than expensive SFX.

If you want, my kid has 3700x with cheap 3200C16 off-the-shelf kit from BestBuy and stock cooler. The cost was $100 mobo, $270 CPU, $80 for RAM (bought like two months ago, during the sales). I can run some tests that you are interested in.

 

[maflynn]

This is about

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anything compelling with the 3700x as a deciding factor. The I7 has the same core/thread count, the price point is too close to each other to be used as a deciding factor and the 10700K is faster the 3700X - Am I wrong or misreading that? I'm not saying its faster for gaming, I am saying its faster in nearly all the benchmarks that I've come across.

Intel Core i7-10700K vs. Ryzen 7 3700X vs. Ryzen 9 3900X

The Core i7-10700K is an 8-core, 16-thread CPU which is essentially a Core i9-9900K at a 25% discount, as Intel has set the MSRP at $375. It's...

www.techspot.com

I've not done any real analysis on the 5000 series Ryzen, but given its a couple hundred more money, I'm not sure I will.

As for mATX, I did look but the case sizes were such that I'd be hard pressed to fit it on my desk. So I either go floor and if that's the case, there's no reason for a tiny form factor. In essence, ITX for being on the desk or mid-tower/ATX build.

 

[GoldfishRT]

I had the option for a 5600x but I was able to get my 3600 for $160 from Microcenter when I built. Way better value.

I'm using a SFF build - I went with an NCase m1. I like it. It's small, very easy to build and work in because of the traditional layout. Quality is decent. Due to the design of the case I run without any extra fans and temps are good. However for the $240 I'd take a hard pass on it. At the end of the day it still looks like a boring box sitting on a desk. I'd like to get ahold of an NZXT H1 because they have a genuinely small footprint and is slightly more interesting to look at - the CPU is by far the loudest thing in this case and I think a 5600XT will not overheat in that shell too.. One thing annoying about the NCase is that magnetic antennae like the one that came with my motherboard can't really hang on anywhere due to the aluminum shell. There's one or two places but they both get in the way of my USB ports.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anything compelling with the 3700x as a deciding factor. The I7 has the same core/thread count, the price point is too close to each other to be used as a deciding factor and the 10700K is faster the 3700X - Am I wrong or misreading that? I'm not saying its faster for gaming, I am saying its faster in nearly all the benchmarks that I've come across.

Intel Core i7-10700K vs. Ryzen 7 3700X vs. Ryzen 9 3900X

The Core i7-10700K is an 8-core, 16-thread CPU which is essentially a Core i9-9900K at a 25% discount, as Intel has set the MSRP at $375. It's...

www.techspot.com

I've not done any real analysis on the 5000 series Ryzen, but given its a couple hundred more money, I'm not sure I will.

Since you quoted Techspot review, I took the time and calculated total of their productivity benchmarks and 3700x is 2% faster than 10700k when you take total average, so I wouldn't say the i7 is faster in nearly all the benchmarks. Like I said earlier - it is a tie with 3200C14.

And as for the couple hundred difference - you can get a cheaper mobo, cheaper PSU, don't need 200W+ rated cooler - it will add up to couple hundred. Or you can apply the same logic and use the savings (minus cooler) to get 5900x and end with a lot faster system.

 

[Thysanoptera]

Due to the design of the case I run without any extra fans and temps are good

@maflynn - don't try that with Intel.

 

[I7guy]

[...]

As for mATX, I did look but the case sizes were such that I'd be hard pressed to fit it on my desk. So I either go floor and if that's the case, there's no reason for a tiny form factor. In essence, ITX for being on the desk or mid-tower/ATX build.

So it seems, the critical decision is desk or floor as that will dictate the case and system board form factor.

Then (if it were me it seems), the next case decision point is does the case have to show off the internals or purely be a very functional case, ie glass panels or air-flow.

The case I bought was $79. A basic case with ok cable management, good disk management, lots of places for fans and supports custom water cooling, but very utilitarian. This is fine because it's under my desk. As I said, up above, I decided on an AIO, but didn't think that far enough ahead. The case doesn't support 240mm or 360mm fan form factor...even though there is the room.

All in all the case is quiet and cool as the AIO funnels the heat out of the back of the case. The other 5 fans in the case are very quiet (as I have them dialed down) and adds some nice white noise into the room. (I took the fans out of my old build and put them in the new case.)

The loudest component is the video/graphics card, which is an xfx radeon rx 580. I am absolutely not paying scalper prices for a new video card and will limp along until the market stabilizes, however long that takes.

I have a gigabyte z490 aorus master (atx) paired with an i9-10900k with g-skill 3600/cl 14 memory and a 750W psu. For productivity, obviously an overkill, but currently my two main games are Doom Eternal and Flight Sim. Both of which are GPU limited at this point.

So going back to the original point, it seems the critical decision is desk or floor and if floor glass or air-flow.

(edit: I ordered more memory, when it comes in and I have cover off, I'll take pictures of the interior and exterior)

 

[ctjack]

and the 10700K is faster the 3700X - Am I wrong or misreading that?

If we don't count on games, then it is a draw. Half time i7 better by 1.5% and the other half by ryzen. With games included, 10700K was better at the moment of that article. Nowadays ryzen 5000 series should be no worse in gaming.
Only place where i7 vs 3700x dominates is gaming. So if you are not hardcore gamer last fps squeezer - then you shouldn't notice the difference. But that 1.5% of difference is nothing, but you will save money with ryzen - saved dollar is still a dollar.

 

[velocityg4]

I mentioned in in my OP, I wanted to consider mini-ITX form factor and while I give up on expansion, I gain the ability to put the computer on my desk. Since I'll not looking to add any additional expansion cards (I think the last expansion card I added to a computer was a modem, back in the 90s ) The ITX is an option, though I am concerned about air-flow/cooling.

For the Mini ITX form factor, I will go with a MSI Z490i Unify, it seems that card has a bit more room around the CPU die for coolers then the ASUS ROG Strix variant.

For cases I'm leaning towards the Lian Li PC-tu150 for 100 dollars It comes in brushed alu, black and whit. The handle on the top, is interesting, though it does descend into the top case and not be seen. I have my choice in a glass side panel, or non-glass for increased air flow This would would basically take the place of where my Egpu sits
View attachment 1709520



For ATX, This case below is why I would stick with an ATX build. One major factor in building a PC is that I want it to be quiet. My last tower build was just too noisy. I chose poorly on the fans and CPU cooler and it sounded like a jet taking off.

The BeQuiet PURE BASE 500DX for 100 dollars is not only elegant looking (the RGB isn't over the top), it offers excellent cooling, I haven't gotten to the CPU cooler part of my build, that will come later, but overall I much prefer an air cooler instead of an AIO for reasons that I'll get into in that subsequent build
View attachment 1709525

I updated my original post and I'll keep updating it with a running list of components.

Just note with big air. Make sure the case has the clearance for the tower cooler you choose. Detailed specs from the manufacture will normally list the maximum height of a CPU cooler.

For mATX and bigger cases. There isn't much difference between big air and an AIO. Although some of the heavy duty AIO (280mm and 360mm) do gain some ground. 240mm is usually around equal.

For ITX cases big air has an exhaust problem. There's very little air space so you'll end up recirculating a lot of hot air unless you have a lot of air flow in the case. AIO is usually much better suited for ITX. As you can directly exhaust the heat or intake cool air. Same thing occurs with GPU fans which recirculate air vs blower fans which force the hot air out of the case. Although blowers are always noisy. Given their high RPM.

That Lian Li though. Looks like you could use big air. Then build a shroud from the heatsink out the rear vent. To directly exhaust hot air.

If you want quiet. Look at the BeQuiet Pure Base 600 or 900 with metal side panel.

has or can anyone build an Apple computer system from scratch?
i read about computer enthusiasts building systems for windows or linux only.
i understand Apple OSX needs a patch to run on bare hardware.

Yes, there are various methods. How easy and reliable it is depends on the parts you choose. You can find more out at Tonymacx86. Although it seems pointless with the Apple Silicon transition. Maybe as a hobby but you know its days are numbered. Just like any Intel Mac.

I've toyed with it. But the reason I build desktops is to run Windows. After getting it to work. I mess with it a little then boot back into Windows and delete macOS. As boot times take forever. The bootloader takes a long time to detect disks and allow OS selection. Since most of what I do is in Windows. Having macOS on the computer is little more than a gimmick. The fun part is getting it to work. Once it works the challenge is over. I've got an iMac and Macbook Pro for macOS.

Although one cool thing about the bootloader. Is you can use it to make NVMe SSD bootable on motherboards too old for NVMe. As the bootloader has NVMe drivers. Although you can often mod the BIOS/UEFI on those motherboards manually to add native NVMe boot support.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Since you quoted Techspot review, I took the time and calculated total of their productivity benchmarks and 3700x is 2% faster than 10700k when you take total average, so I wouldn't say the i7 is faster in nearly all the benchmarks. Like I said earlier - it is a tie with 3200C14.

While I didn't do the calculations myself, the Techspot review highlights the 10700's excellent gaming results but explicitly points out that the 3700X is a strong contender when including productivity application performance.

It's worth pointing out that the Intel 10700's gaming advantage -- while clear at the 1080p resolution -- is less so at the 1440p resolution. If you are gaming at 4K, I expect this margin to narrow even more. If you are playing mostly RPGs or single player games at higher resolutions the game performance will be primarily bottlenecked by the GPU. If I'm playing a Resident Evil title at 1440p, it really doesn't matter much whether I'm getting 120fps or 130fps.

There was one Techspot test concerning power and the 3700X shreds the 10700 in efficiency. There are no tests examining thermals but for sure the 10700's TDP will make cooling decisions extremely critical -- especially in a SFF chassis -- even if you don't care what it does to your electricity bill.

When I bought my 3700X in August, it was $305 and included a redemption code for Assassin's Creed: Valhalla. The price has gone up +20%, the game offer expired but at least the 3700X includes the Wraith Stealth cooler. I knew that Zen 3 had committed to the AM4 socket so I knew the B550 motherboards weren't a dead end.

There is no way I'd stick a 125W Intel CPU in my mini-ITX NZXT H1 case. Hell, I wouldn't try it in my micro-ATX case either. That amount of thermal dissipation results in too many compromises. No problem in a mid-tower ATX case that lives under the desk though.

One thing I discovered with AIO coolers is that I can tweak the fan curves so the fan speed step-up threshold time is long and step-down threshold time is short. There's already a lot of cooling power in the radiator and the water loop so brief spikes in CPU (or GPU) load can easily be absorbed by the normal flow of coolant. That means less frequent fan speed changes and noise distractions -- something that doesn't test well or show up in benchmark graphs.

With my current MSI MAG Mortar motherboard, that means the CPU AIO and GPU AIO step-up time is the maximum 0.7 second, the step-down time is the minimum 0.1 second. This favors those fans to run slowly and respond patiently to minor load spikes.

In my micro-ATX case, the 240mm AIO CPU cooler is the front panel air intake so the exhaust from the radiator goes into the case. However since it's cooling a 65W TDP Ryzen processor, the air isn't all that hot. The 120mm AIO GPU cooler is on the rear panel and exhausts out of the case.

 

[maflynn]

is 2% faster than 10700k

Basically as @ctjack said, its a draw, and I found no compelling reason to change from intel to Ryzen. 2% means I cannot go wrong with either chip and since my preference is Intel, and I do play games, I'm happy with Intel

Both chips will handle 99% of what any person really needs. I can see making decisions for Ryzen when time is money, for home use, I'm very content with Intel.

So going back to the original point, it seems the critical decision is desk or floor and if floor glass or air-flow.

No question, ultimately do I want it on my desk or on the floor. I tend to prefer desk,

For ITX cases big air has an exhaust problem

That's been my concern with ITX but, the Lian-Li that I linked seemed to have good ventilation, through if it is going on to be my desk, a glass side would be preferred but how much of a compromise to air flow would that be - more research

If you want quiet. Look at the BeQuiet Pure Base 600 or 900 with metal side panel.

Yep, I agree

 

[GoldfishRT]

I really wish I could find an H1 to look at before I decide if I should order one. How do you like it? AIO reliable and quiet?

It was my first choice over the M1 but back in the Spring availability was a no-go (and it was $50 more than it is currently anyway).

in my mini-ITX NZXT H1 case.

One thing I discovered with AIO coolers is that I can tweak the fan curves so the fan speed step-up threshold time is long and step-down threshold time is short. There's already a lot of cooling power in the radiator and the water loop so brief spikes in CPU (or GPU) load can easily be absorbed by the normal flow of coolant. That means less frequent fan speed changes and noise distractions -- something that doesn't test well or show up in benchmark graphs.

 

[Erehy Dobon]

Disclaimer: the NZXT H1 was my first custom PC build in 20+ years so my chops were a bit rusty. My micro-ATX build refreshed a lot of my old memories and taught me a lot about some newer tech (like AIO CLCs) that didn't exist in the Nineties.

The NZXT H1's 140mm AIO radiator is well suited for smaller TDP CPUs like my 65W 3700X. While the included NZXT Aer fan is adequate, I spent a few bucks to replace it with a slightly quieter Noctua NF-A14 chroma.Black.swap and a spare low-noise adapter I had. I also pitched the wire finger guard and added a Phanteks Halo LED fan light for fun.

I'm unsure if my initial thermal compound application was competently done so likely the CPU ran a few degrees Celsius hotter than it should have; it was the thermal compound provided by NZXT. When I resume using the case, I will use Noctua NT-H2 or Arctic MX-4 thermal paste. I'm better at applying thermal paste today that I was six months ago.

For this case, careful consideration on the choice of graphics card is advisable. It's in its own compartment with no option for additional fans so you want something that don't generate too much heat or noise.

My plan is to eventually make the H1 my productivity "daily driver" and use a relatively low-spec GPU. Right now there is a Sapphire Pulse RX 550 2GB card that is merely something slightly better than integrated graphics. At some point I will replace it with the low-end Nvidia Ampere card.

The H1 a great case if you understand and accept all of the compromises for something this small. I'm glad I picked in up and I expect to get years of happy use from it.

The decision I made to eventually have separate gaming and productivity PCs allows me to make fewer compromises for each build -- at the expense of my wallet of course.

 

[GoldfishRT]

The decision I made to eventually have separate gaming and productivity PCs allows me to make fewer compromises for each build -- at the expense of my wallet of course.

A no-compromises small form factor build is a labor-intensive and wallet-intensive endeavor as well. In hindsight I think I would have been better off just sticking a mid-tower under the desk. Saved some cash and been quieter/cooler too.

 

[maflynn]

off just sticking a mid-tower under the desk.

Its funny, I was just typing in my thoughts about ITX vs. ATX and after googling TU150 and heat, I did come up with a number of hits where people had difficulty with temps. I think I'll be better off with a mid tower that is designed for maximum air flow.

 

[GoldfishRT]

Its funny, I was just typing in my thoughts about ITX vs. ATX and after googling TU150 and heat, I did come up with a number of hits where people had difficulty with temps. I think I'll be better off with a mid tower that is designed for maximum air flow.

Like all things it's about tradeoffs and how deep down the rabbit hole you want to go for the hobby. I got really into watching and reading about SFF cases and PCs and really bought into the hype. Now that I have one, at the end of the day it's still a PC case so it's still boxy and kind of lame looking, and it still takes up more room than I'd like on my desk so I'm not sure really what I gained beyond the satisfaction that it's smaller. It doesn't have a window either so in some ways I find it less pleasing than a larger case that would have a window for me to look at all the money I spent. I don't go to LAN parties and I'm certainly not flying with it so it's not like that was ever a selling point for me.

Edit: I would still go ITX but I think I'd be more likely to use an H210 or something similar next time.

 

[q64ceo]

Is this just gonna be a Windows machine? Have any thoughts of Hackintoshing it and running macOS?