Canon 7D: Released (Link on post #1)

[Grimace]

No, it will not be Full Frame. Canon is still in short supply of the $2700 5D camera. This would be direct competition with the 5D if it were full frame - it would actually overshadow it.

Hint: the two lenses that were released with it? EF-S. This will not be a FF camera.

 

[compuwar]

what's so difficult about Canon's naming convention? go complain about Nikon's. it makes no sense whatsoever.

The only major difference I can see between the Canon and Nikon body naming schemes is if the D goes in front or at the end. Nikon suffixes the cameras with model information (s,x,h) as necessary, but that's consistent.

nD = Dn (though the 5D sort of breaks it as it's really a Dnnn)
nnD = Dnnn
nnnD = Dnn
nnnnD = Dnnnn

Seems about as easy a transposition as you can get without the companies having to worry too much about the fact that they didn't just add one each time they introduced a new model.

If Canon when to a word based naming convention, they would be laughed at.

You mean like "Digital Rebel XTI?"

Anyway, the thing I was going to ask was if anyone had done the math on the resolution/sensor size numbers, because I think the pixels would have to be much smaller than is traditional on a DSLR- somewhere around 3.6u perhaps? I think that's smaller than the pixels on an A650- so if the rumor is true, and we expect relatively good low-light performance, then Canon may have upped the high-ISO game once again- though it'd certainly challenge most lenses. I think APS-H would be around 6u, if that's right it makes much more sense.

 

[Full of Win]

You mean like "Digital Rebel XTI?"

Ohh... you mean the 450D or the Kiss X2?

However, you will note that the name of the most resent revision of the line is named "T1i"

 

[gkarris]

Didn't Canon listen to Photo Enthusiasts and drop the pixel density in the new G11?

 

[toxic]

I too believe that it will be a FF camera, perhaps without video, but faster than the 5DII. I lot of photographers don't have use for a video feature of the 5DII, but would like a faster camera.

again, look at the viewfinder bulge (or whatever it's called). it is simply too small to be anything but APS.

The only major difference I can see between the Canon and Nikon body naming schemes is if the D goes in front or at the end. Nikon suffixes the cameras with model information (s,x,h) as necessary, but that's consistent.

nD = Dn (though the 5D sort of breaks it as it's really a Dnnn)
nnD = Dnnn
nnnD = Dnn
nnnnD = Dnnnn

Seems about as easy a transposition as you can get without the companies having to worry too much about the fact that they didn't just add one each time they introduced a new model.

now it's starting to make more sense, though it's still not consistent as Canon (fewer digits = better). like before it was D40, D60, D90, D300, D3. when I first read something on the Nikon line, I was confused about which camera went where in the lineup - I only knew D40 was the lowest since it's the smallest, and D3 is probably the highest since it has a built-in grip. everything else was a guess.

so it makes some sense now, but it sure didn't when I first saw it.

 

[compuwar]

again, look at the viewfinder bulge (or whatever it's called). it is simply too small to be anything but APS.



now it's starting to make more sense, though it's still not consistent as Canon (fewer digits = better).

so it makes some sense now, but it sure didn't when I first saw it.

At first glance 1D > 5D doesn't make much sense either- so I don't think there's a heck of a lot of sensible naming scheme people at either company.

 

[FX120]

The specs are probably quite acurate. The viewfinder prism looks enormous for a APS-C sensor, much much larger than what you would typically see on a 40D or 50D, so the 100%, 1.0X specs are probably acurate, and honestly the most atractive thing about this camera. The main reason I moved up to a 5DII was for the bigger viewfinder.

18MP might be high, but I believe that there was some article I read a while back about Canon making a "breakthrough" for high ISO noise performance on dense sensors, so who knows.

 

[Grimace]

At first glance 1D > 5D doesn't make much sense either- so I don't think there's a heck of a lot of sensible naming scheme people at either company.

I originally thought that too, but you always know that the 1 series is the top dog, and the rest of the lineup can change at will.

The dumbest thing about Canon's naming/numbering is the difference between the USA and everywhere else. XSi? Call it a xxxxD!

XD
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Done.

 

[luminosity]

again, look at the viewfinder bulge (or whatever it's called). it is simply too small to be anything but APS.



now it's starting to make more sense, though it's still not consistent as Canon (fewer digits = better). like before it was D40, D60, D90, D300, D3. when I first read something on the Nikon line, I was confused about which camera went where in the lineup - I only knew D40 was the lowest since it's the smallest, and D3 is probably the highest since it has a built-in grip. everything else was a guess.

so it makes some sense now, but it sure didn't when I first saw it.

The D3 follows the same line as the original F series. There are modifications to it, of course, (there was no plain D2, but rather the D2X and then the D2Xs), but the original F series had some quiet modifications as well.

D1/2/3/
F/2/3/4/5/6

Pretty straightforward.

 

[Full of Win]

I originally thought that too, but you always know that the 1 series is the top dog, and the rest of the lineup can change at will.

The dumbest thing about Canon's naming/numbering is the difference between the USA and everywhere else. XSi? Call it a xxxxD!

XD
XXD
XXXD
XXXXD

Done.

This just keeps with our proud tradition of doing things different. I travel MILES to get gas by the GALLON and then go buy a quarter POUNDer with double cheese!

Serious, in Japan they call the Rebel (in the US) the Kiss…which I don’t know seems odd.

 

[OreoCookie]

This just keeps with our proud tradition of doing things different. I travel MILES to get gas by the GALLON and then go buy a quarter POUNDer with double cheese!

Differently? You just forgot to switch from the units of measurement of the colonials!

 

[Padaung]

This just keeps with our proud tradition of doing things different. I travel MILES to get gas by the GALLON and then go buy a quarter POUNDer with double cheese!

Serious, in Japan they call the Rebel (in the US) the Kiss…which I don’t know seems odd.

Come to the UK where we buy milk and beer by the pint, but petrol, coca cola, orange juice etc by the litre. Long distances are measured in miles, we drive at miles per hour and measure fuel efficiency in miles per gallon. We measure most other distances in metres (officially) but a lot of people still refer to things in feet and inches. Sugar is purchased by the kilogram but we can still walk into a burger shop and get a quarter pounder. Keeps life interesting The EU have recently admitted defeat and stopped trying to make us fully metric, we like our odd little ways.

However, digital camera naming conventions can still be a little confusing to us too! It was easier in the old film days

 

[flosseR]

I think someone screwed up.. this would completely mess up Canon's line-up... why on earth would you cram THAT much into a APSC sensor?.. i really think this is either a canon 70D (so someone made a typo) with a crop, or a 7D with full frame..

 

[Edge100]

This really makes no sense to me. To whom does this camera appeal? 18MP on a 1.6x crop sensor, when Canon already knows damn well that 15MP in a 1.6x crop sensor is too much, at least as far as noise and IQ are concerned? 8 fps is nice, as are 19 cross-type AF points, but why are these features being coupled to such a ridiculously jam-packed sensor?

This sounds very, very odd.

 

[Phrasikleia]

This really makes no sense to me. To whom does this camera appeal? 18MP on a 1.6x crop sensor, when Canon already knows damn well that 15MP in a 1.6x crop sensor is too much, at least as far as noise and IQ are concerned? 8 fps is nice, as are 19 cross-type AF points, but why are these features being coupled to such a ridiculously jam-packed sensor?

This sounds very, very odd.

If the rumors are true, I can only guess this camera is being targeted at sports enthusiasts, who need the extra reach of a cropped sensor and want the extra MP so they can crop even more. As for noise, well, maybe Canon has made some advancement in sensor tech? If not, then I guess it's a camera targeted at outdoors sports enthusiasts.

 

[Ambrose Chapel]

so now that this isn't the sub-$2k full frame eos camera everyone (or at least me) wants...

how long before canon can figure out how to produce one? sony fired the first shot with the A850, and i assume it's inevitable that the industry will move that way, but when? any educated guesses?

 

[wheelhot]

how long before canon can figure out how to produce one? sony fired the first shot with the A850, and i assume it's inevitable that the industry will move that way, but when? any educated guesses?

On the next update, meaning the next generation release of FF camera. Sony is definitely pushing the market to change but Canon and Nikon is still superior.

 

[compuwar]

so now that this isn't the sub-$2k full frame eos camera everyone (or at least me) wants...

how long before canon can figure out how to produce one? sony fired the first shot with the A850, and i assume it's inevitable that the industry will move that way, but when? any educated guesses?

As slowly as possible. FF sensor cameras are commanding a premium for Nikon and Canon, nobody in business would advise someone to kill the margins on a high-margin product before they absolutely have to. The D700 is ~2300 now street- Canon's been happy with a ~$500 delta and Nikon is a "safer" switch than Sony, so it really depends a lot on how far Sony will discount and for how long- I don't see Nikon or Canon trying to price-match Sony soon though- unless someone does some surprising volume/unit price statistics for the holiday season for new DSLR buyers- if you're invested in Canon, you're likely to wait for a new model or a price drop rather than switch systems, or eventually just pony-up.

 

[Ambrose Chapel]

that's what i was afraid of...

i guess the good news for me is that i'm in no hurry to upgrade, and in the meantime i can always splurge on glass! but i do hope that it's no more than a couple of years before we can get the equivalent of an xxD with FF...after all, every tourist i see has already upgraded their p&s to a DSLR...gotta tempt them with something shiny to upgrade to.

 

[wheelhot]

Alright, the confirmed specs (source canonrumors)

7D Translation
1. 18MP APSC CMOS (confirmed to be 1.6x from Chinese press translation)
2. Dual DIGIC 4
3. 8 FPS (94 FINE JPEG/ 15 RAW)
4. New eight-directional double cross central AF point, total 19 cross AF points
5. ISO 100-6400 (Exp 12800)
6. 100% 1.0X magni VF with intelligent display, horizon assist
7. New iFCL metering (exposure and colour)
8. 3′ 920K Version II LCD, 160 deg viewing
9. Full HD video (w external mic input n HDMI output) - alright again from the Chinese press, if I recall there will be both 720p and 1080p at 24/25/30 and bonus 60 for 720p
10. Live view w Face-priority AF
11. New switch for Live View/Video mode
12. Aero-dynamic body design, metallic shutter sound, 150K shutter life
13. New 24mm built-in flash, supports EOS intelligent speedlite system (Canon version of CLS)
14. A.L.O
15. P.I.C
16. Picture style
17. EOS Integrated Dust Removal system

 

[anubis]

1. 18MP APSC CMOS (confirmed to be 1.6x from Chinese press translation)
5. ISO 100-6400 (Exp 12800)

Oh please, the 15MP 50D is already a piece of crap at ISO 800 and beyond, don't insult my intelligence by telling me this camera will be capable of ISO 12800

If the rumors are true, I can only guess this camera is being targeted at sports enthusiasts, who need the extra reach of a cropped sensor and want the extra MP so they can crop even more. As for noise, well, maybe Canon has made some advancement in sensor tech? If not, then I guess it's a camera targeted at outdoors sports enthusiasts.

I think you've got it here. It's the only thing that makes sense. Sports, birding, wildlife/nature, etc.... The kind of things where you maybe want a lot of MP and have the $$$ to spend on L-lenses, but need the extra reach of a 1.6x crop

 

[dllavaneras]

Alright, the confirmed specs (source canonrumors)

7D Translation
1. 18MP APSC CMOS (confirmed to be 1.6x from Chinese press translation)
2. Dual DIGIC 4
3. 8 FPS (94 FINE JPEG/ 15 RAW)

The 1D Mark III puts out 100 Mp/s (10Mp @ 10 fps) with dual Digic III precessors. Are the Digic 4 so superior that they can handle a 44% increase in load? (18 Mp @ 8 fps = 144 Mp/s) This would mean that it's just slightly slower than the 1D (8 vs 10 fps), slightly lower resolution than the 1Ds (18 vs 21 Mp) and with better video capabilities than the 5D Mark II. And ISO 12800? On a crop sensor? I'll believe it when I see it, although it makes no sense.

 

[toxic]

first, about 50D noise: DPR uses ACR, which was proven to make all 50D images noisier than they should have been. I don't know if that's been fixed yet since I don't use ACR or a 50D. with DPP or other RAW converters, the noise handling of the 50D vs the 40D is a lateral move. that said, I think the 50D exhibits a bit more chroma noise than expected...but that's an easy fix in post without loss of detail.

back to the 7D:

badly translated chinese press release:
http://www.canonrumors.com/2009/08/eos-7d-press-release/#more-2538

I would wait for the english release before seriously reading all that... some thoughts/note:

- sensor technology has improved (don't people know that it always improves? pixel density is not everything), and Canon claims that the redesign boosts SNR, among other things. ok, to be fair, they always claim that.

- it is 1.6 crop, and Canon seems committed to APS-C since, according to the translation, the 7D is considered the "flagship" for APS-C cameras.

- viewfinder is now the same as the 1DIII's...meaning not that much bigger. but everyone should have expected that since the sensor/mirror's so small compared to APS-H and 35mm.

- 5 (or more?) AF modes, improved tracking/auto AF point selection. I've never used a 1D so I don't know how they compare.

- remote flash triggering, finally

- more and more customizable Picture Styles, for the Jpeg shooters

- shutter press feels more like 1DIII and 5DII? I guess that just means a softer half-press

- power switch location is changed, no idea why they bothered

Oh please, the 15MP 50D is already a piece of crap at ISO 800 and beyond, don't insult my intelligence by telling me this camera will be capable of ISO 12800

capability and whether it'll be any good at it are two separate things. P&S' regularly go to 3200+. other than that, see my above comments on DPR/ACR and the 50D.

 

[wheelhot]

Oh please, the 15MP 50D is already a piece of crap at ISO 800 and beyond, don't insult my intelligence by telling me this camera will be capable of ISO 12800

Sorry I'm not, but wait for a couple of hours time

first, about 50D noise: DPR uses ACR, which was proven to make all 50D images noisier than they should have been. I don't know if that's been fixed yet since I don't use ACR or a 50D. with DPP or other RAW converters, the noise handling of the 50D vs the 40D is a lateral move. that said, I think the 50D exhibits a bit more chroma noise than expected...but that's an easy fix in post without loss of detail.

erm not actually, the problem is, the 50D exhibits too much noise till any NR made to reduce chroma will still make the image unusable.

capability and whether it'll be any good at it are two separate things. P&S' regularly go to 3200+. other than that, see my above comments on DPR/ACR and the 50D.

Yeah but PnS at ISO 3200 is usually more gimmick then function

and yes, many people are worried bout 18mp on APS-C, guess we'll have to just wait and see :|

 

[John.B]

The dumbest thing about Canon's naming/numbering is the difference between the USA and everywhere else. XSi? Call it a xxxxD!

Actually, in the USA they are still primarily advertised as the Rebel (which might not play as well in the UK). See thumbnail attachment below. Andre Agassi was their ad spokes-tennisplayer for years and years with the older film versions, which has quite a lot of marketing carryover even today in the USA.

The 40D's 10MP 1.6x crop has vastly superior noise and linearity performance compared to the newer and more expensive 50D's 15MP 1.6x crop, as proven by dpreview.

DPReview hates Canon, because Canon won't give them advanced models before the official announcement (like Nikon does). They admitted to as much in one of their Canon dSLR reviews. I wouldn't put too much stake in a review from an outfit with an axe to grind. The 40D and 50D actually compare favorably at pixel-peeping 100% crops for anything approaching normal ISOs.

dpreview.com 1D MkIII Review

As has become Canon’s approach we had no information on this camera before embargo, this lack of trust they show with their most important (and reliable) publications only continues to damage their image within the industry.

Still, since nobody here seems to have taken the 7D for a ride (judging from how wrong everyone was about this camera ), maybe we'll just see how it actually pans out when it hits stores in late September?