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richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
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2,186
My bet is on an entry-level Mac laptop. Whether they call it MacBook, MacBook Air or whatever is a secondary question.

Why do I think so: it would make sense for Apple to start with “simpler”, more conservative A14 variants. An A14X with 4 high performance CPU cores and 7-8 GPU cores would have good yields, could be reused across iPads and Macs, and it wouldn’t need any novel approach to main board design. But it’s also not really a CPU you want to use in a higher-end 13” MBP, because as @calstanford mentions, a lot of initial software will need to run under Rosetta2. For an entry-level, cheaper Mac laptop though it’s going to be amazing. A 1200$ Apple ultraportable with excellent battery life and performance rivaling more expensive Tiger Lake laptops is going to be an absolute hit.
I agree with all you say. I just wonder where this sits in the matrix. Is it a macbook / MBA ? I never thought really a high end MBP would come out first, but also not a 12”. A 13 / 14” macbook would definitely be a hit and I will be first in line for this, as it is exactly what I need and dont intend on using any Rosetta2 apps [if possible].
It certainly is going to be interesting to see how this all works out over the next year or so, regarding apps.
 
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glindon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2014
629
901
Phoenix
I think a 12” MacBook would send the wrong message about Apple’s confidence in Mac silicon. The 12” was always a niche product that was a statement of how small a MacBook could be with “adequate” performance. The MacBook was supposed to be the “future of MacBooks.” I’m still not sure what that means. 5 years later we still have the same old MacBooks and the Airs had to have fans in them. All MacBooks since have had at least 2 or more ports so at least the future wasn’t a single port.
 

leman

macrumors Core
Oct 14, 2008
19,518
19,669
I think a 12” MacBook would send the wrong message about Apple’s confidence in Mac silicon. The 12” was always a niche product that was a statement of how small a MacBook could be with “adequate” performance. The MacBook was supposed to be the “future of MacBooks.” I’m still not sure what that means. 5 years later we still have the same old MacBooks and the Airs had to have fans in them. All MacBooks since have had at least 2 or more ports so at least the future wasn’t a single port.

Imagine however that they do release a small MacBook that deserves the label of being “the future of MacBooks“. Compact, with excellent battery life, potentially passively cooled and as fas or faster than laptops like the 13” XPS. I think that would send a very strong message about the Mac.
 

glindon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2014
629
901
Phoenix
Imagine however that they do release a small MacBook that deserves the label of being “the future of MacBooks“. Compact, with excellent battery life, potentially passively cooled and as fas or faster than laptops like the 13” XPS. I think that would send a very strong message about the Mac.
13” is about as small as most consumers want. Consider the old 11.6 vs 13 MBA. Even with the cheaper price point of the 11.6 a large majority bought the 13. I’d venture that if Apple released a 15” with Air internals and sold it for $150 more it would be their best selling MacBook. The vast majority of PC laptop sales are 15” because they have cheap internals and people want the bigger screen.
 

Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
Just give us a 12", a 14", and a 16".

MacBook mini, MacBook, MacBook Pro.

Or would that be too simple?
Probably leaves money on the table, the weird overlapping product segments seem to be designed to maximise customer spend as the next step up is always 'just a little bit more'.

13” is about as small as most consumers want. Consider the old 11.6 vs 13 MBA. Even with the cheaper price point of the 11.6 a large majority bought the 13. I’d venture that if Apple released a 15” with Air internals and sold it for $150 more it would be their best selling MacBook. The vast majority of PC laptop sales are 15” because they have cheap internals and people want the bigger screen.
+1 I've always thought Apple's aversion to a 15" class consumer MacBook odd. They seem to have accepted that people like larger screens with the iPad and iPhone, but are stuck insisting if you want a MacBook with an >13" display you must also want a $2.5k compact workstation. Particularly now a 15" machine can have almost the same footprint as the old 13" MacBook Air this seems increasingly last decade thinking.
 
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glindon

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2014
629
901
Phoenix
Probably leaves money on the table, the weird overlapping product segments seem to be designed to maximise customer spend as the next step up is always 'just a little bit more'.


+1 I've always thought Apple's aversion to a 15" class consumer MacBook odd. They seem to have accepted that people like larger screens with the iPad and iPhone, but are stuck insisting if you want a MacBook with an >13" display you must also want a $2.5k compact workstation. Particularly now a 15" machine can have almost the same footprint as the old 13" MacBook Air this seems increasingly last decade thinking.
Apple won’t sell a cheap 15-16” because they would be leaving a lot of money on the table. There’s probably a good percentage of people that buy the entry level 15-16” merely for the screen size.
 

AppleFeller

macrumors 6502
Oct 19, 2020
383
532
Apple take the 13" Air or Pro, trim the fat from the screen bezel and some of the thickness, and gimme. Like others have said I am very curious to see how Apple differentiates its chips across the MacBooks, considering the iPad Pro will have the next A14X chip, they can't just stuff the same thing in the 13" Pro. I'm wondering if they segment the chips by cpu and gpu clock speeds or if they actually throw more GPU and CPU cores on higher end skus.
 

AppleFeller

macrumors 6502
Oct 19, 2020
383
532
Unpopular opinion: the 1st gen of ARM Macs is going to be composed of new internals in a recycled chassis just like the 1st generation of Intel Macs.
Not unpopular at all, every reliable rumor has suggested this and it makes perfect sense, the nice thing is even recycled if history repeats the MacBook Pro/Air should get a tad thinner like the MBP with Core Duo did.
 
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thenewperson

macrumors 6502a
Mar 27, 2011
992
912
Apple won’t sell a cheap 15-16” because they would be leaving a lot of money on the table. There’s probably a good percentage of people that buy the entry level 15-16” merely for the screen size.
Yep, it's likely going to be the same situation with the iPhones where there will likely not be a regular 'Max' phone but it's quite possible there could be a 'Pro mini' later on. I really would have loved if they killed the 2-port 13" and put its internals in a 15" Air, but alas.
 

JohnnyGo

macrumors 6502a
Sep 9, 2009
957
620
1. There are absolutely no chassi-leaks for a 12-inch model
2. The China times leak of a 12-inch MacBook with an A14X is suspect. It’s already known that the silicon macs will share a new family of chips. Even if they’ll use an A14X, they’d likely rename it for the sake of consistency.
3. Several leakers such as l0vetodream and Mark Gurman have suggested that the first model would be a 13-inch MacBook. People who’ve claimed the opposite have not had a good track-record and may simply be guessing. Take Komiya as an example.

Is there any fault in my arguments? What are the arguments to the contrary?

I could not disagree with you more.
1) the greatest advantage of Apple Silicon is better battery life
2) it will free Apple to reduce battery size in certain models
3) what laptop benefits the most of a smaller battery? The ultraportable!

MacBook is available. Apple likes its history and will reuse the name keeping the brand refreshed. No need to use MacBook Air.

I wish they go 12” and 14”. But I am positive the 12” is coming.
 

jazz1

Contributor
Aug 19, 2002
4,674
19,761
Mid-West USA
Yep, it's likely going to be the same situation with the iPhones where there will likely not be a regular 'Max' phone but it's quite possible there could be a 'Pro mini' later on. I really would have loved if they killed the 2-port 13" and put its internals in a 15" Air, but alas.
I probably will be in the minority, but I think I've always be much more excited about new Mac laptops vs. iPhones. But I suppose profits will always influence Apple regarding where they put their best efforts in design and development.

IMHO Apple has a real opportunity to bring us an ARM laptop/desktop that is both great in form, function, and performance. Something that will live up to the glory days of Apple.

Steve Jobs
“Have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.”
― Steve Jobs
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
However for MacBooks (and likewise iMacs) the screen dimension number is based on the usable screen size, not the physical dimensions of the top panel (which includes the bezel).

This actually applies to ALL screens (smartphones, tablets, laptops, monitors, and televisions). Screen sizes are measured diagonally from the corner of the usable (visible) panel rather than the entire assembly including bezels. If you can shrink the bezel down far enough, you can easily fit a 14" screen into a 13" body, just as you can fit a 16" into a 15" chassis. That's the same reason the iPad went from a 9.7" to a 10.2" screen without changing the width and height of the iPad.
 
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dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
So what you are saying is they stay with the same chassis for an imac that everyone ridicules now because of the bezels and a MacBook Pro that is the same since 2016, that looks totally dated, to show off their first CPU + GPU for a computer in their history? And this is from the company that prides itself on hardware and software integration.....
It makes more sense for Apple to use the existing chassis for the initial transition than to replace both the internal and external components at once. By using the existing MBA/MBP bodies, you eliminate one variable in the rollout of an entirely new architecture for your products, and you can work on a new design to roll out once the internals are locked in and any quirks have been identified and ironed out. If you don't think that Apple has planned out this transition in detail well in advance of WWDC (including chassis redesigns), you'd be sorely mistaken.
 

dmccloud

macrumors 68040
Sep 7, 2009
3,138
1,899
Anchorage, AK
I could not disagree with you more.
1) the greatest advantage of Apple Silicon is better battery life
2) it will free Apple to reduce battery size in certain models
3) what laptop benefits the most of a smaller battery? The ultraportable!

MacBook is available. Apple likes its history and will reuse the name keeping the brand refreshed. No need to use MacBook Air.

I wish they go 12” and 14”. But I am positive the 12” is coming.

Why would Apple bring back a 12" when the MacBook 12" by most metrics underperformed both in sales and in actual use? Keeping the MBA/MBP product lines (possibly under different names) makes more sense than creating a third product line under the MacBook banner. If anything, I could see Apple replacing the 13" MBP with a 14" model, keeping the MBA at 13" and retaining the 16" MBP. 13" is really the baseline for usability of any laptop due to the sacrifices that have to be made below that size range. While Apple Silicon may address some of those in terms of performance per watt, the ability to run fanless, etc., it would have no effect on the the screen and the sacrifices that would have to be made there if you switched to 12" or even 11". Most sub-13" laptops that are on the market are running lower resolution displays (768p, not even 1080p/FHD), with older processors (AMD A6, Intel Celeron, etc.), only 4GB RAM (which is a joke for any modern OS outside of Chrome OS), and Windows 10 in S Mode (which limits you to apps available on the Microsoft Store). There is a reason they cost less than $300, even when not on sale.
 

richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,429
2,186
It makes more sense for Apple to use the existing chassis for the initial transition than to replace both the internal and external components at once. By using the existing MBA/MBP bodies, you eliminate one variable in the rollout of an entirely new architecture for your products, and you can work on a new design to roll out once the internals are locked in and any quirks have been identified and ironed out. If you don't think that Apple has planned out this transition in detail well in advance of WWDC (including chassis redesigns), you'd be sorely mistaken.

And because I am more than fully aware this has been planned for years, I have no doubt they will have new hardware to show off.
We just have to wait a few weeks to see, but I will be amazed and absolutely gobsmacked if they do what you say.
 

Waragainstsleep

macrumors 6502a
Oct 15, 2003
612
221
UK
As far as I can tell the only respectable rumours for the 17th are a 24" iMac and 13" MacBook (pro). Everything else is mere speculation. The 12" MacBook rumours, such as they are, seem to be based on the long-standing idea that it's the model that 'makes the most sense' to start with. If they're transitioning the whole lineup quickly it isn't, because it's a niche product. They need the macs that sell in volume, and which are least likely to be running specialist software - the 13" MacBook Air, cheaper variant of the 13" MacBook Pro, the smaller (cheaper) iMac and Mac mini would be the computers to get out first if you want to get the transition off to a strong start.

It was a niche product back then because it didn't have enough power. The new one will beat most other laptops on the market, making it perfect for most students, sales reps and home/office workers who currently just use bottom of the range Wintel laptops and want something more portable, more stylish and lighter. That MacBook was really nice in almost every way except performance. (Yes I know people have issues with the keyboard but people are weird about Mac keyboards, PC users never moan about their crappy keyboards). Give it the performance and a low enough price tag and they will sell stupid amounts of them. Stupid amounts.


It makes more sense for Apple to use the existing chassis for the initial transition than to replace both the internal and external components at once. By using the existing MBA/MBP bodies, you eliminate one variable in the rollout of an entirely new architecture for your products, and you can work on a new design to roll out once the internals are locked in and any quirks have been identified and ironed out. If you don't think that Apple has planned out this transition in detail well in advance of WWDC (including chassis redesigns), you'd be sorely mistaken.
Nah.
The chassis doesn't have much scope for issues. Its a block of ally with holes in it. It would make sense for them to keep the current keyboards which people seem to like, but a big selling point of Apple Silicon is its capacity for passive cooling. It doesn't need the big heat sinks or the fans or the air throughput of the old chassis. Plonking it in the old one would be a waste from a marketing point of view. Apple will want to make a splash. Most people don't look under the hood of their car. They won't get excited by last years model with better fuel efficiency or battery life. You at least have to put stripes on it and sex up the upholstery. But if you make a VW Polo that looks like a Lambo then people will really want them. Assuming its priced more like the Polo.
 
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richinaus

macrumors 68020
Oct 26, 2014
2,429
2,186
Uh
It was a niche product back then because it didn't have enough power. The new one will beat most other laptops on the market, making it perfect for most students, sales reps and home/office workers who currently just use bottom of the range Wintel laptops and want something more portable, more stylish and lighter. That MacBook was really nice in almost every way except performance. (Yes I know people have issues with the keyboard but people are weird about Mac keyboards, PC users never moan about their crappy keyboards). Give it the performance and a low enough price tag and they will sell stupid amounts of them. Stupid amounts.



Nah.
The chassis doesn't have much scope for issues. Its a block of ally with holes in it. It would make sense for them to keep the current keyboards which people seem to like, but a big selling point of Apple Silicon is its capacity for passive cooling. It doesn't need the big heat sinks or the fans or the air throughput of the old chassis. Plonking it in the old one would be a waste from a marketing point of view. Apple will want to make a splash. Most people don't look under the hood of their car. They won't get excited by last years model with better fuel efficiency or battery life. You at least have to put stripes on it and sex up the upholstery. But if you make a VW Polo that looks like a Lambo then people will really want them. Assuming its priced more like the Polo.
exactly.

How do you sell passive cooling with a chassis designed for removing a lot of heat.
How do you justify large bezels when ALL the competition have removed them
How do you promote longevity if you dont amend the battery design
How do you promote portability if you dont make this computer as thin as possible.

Basically what’s the point of AS if it doesnt benefit the hardware and software
 

Fomalhaut

macrumors 68000
Oct 6, 2020
1,993
1,724
Unpopular opinion: the 1st gen of ARM Macs is going to be composed of new internals in a recycled chassis just like the 1st generation of Intel Macs.
It's certainly a possibility, especially given the fact there have been no leaks of physical design changes (although leaks are far less like for a Mac than a new iPhone).

I do think that it would help Apple's marketing if they clearly distinguish the new Macs with a new physical design. It will make it much easier for consumers to differentiate the machines.
 
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radiologyman

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2011
755
271
Why would Apple bring back a 12" ?

When Apple was not able to make a successor to MB12 I had to move to a 13 in ultraportable from HP. It has narrow bezels and beats MB12 in most things but it is 50% (1 pound) heavier than MB. MB12 was an engineering fit that still unmatched by rivals in ergonomics and I'm sure Apple will bring it back, possibly with 12.5 in screen that can fit in prior dimensions.

I think the main reason MB12 line was not updated because Intel could not make newer processors with suitable TDP.
 
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Falhófnir

macrumors 603
Aug 19, 2017
6,146
7,001
It was a niche product back then because it didn't have enough power. The new one will beat most other laptops on the market, making it perfect for most students, sales reps and home/office workers who currently just use bottom of the range Wintel laptops and want something more portable, more stylish and lighter. That MacBook was really nice in almost every way except performance. (Yes I know people have issues with the keyboard but people are weird about Mac keyboards, PC users never moan about their crappy keyboards). Give it the performance and a low enough price tag and they will sell stupid amounts of them. Stupid amounts.
I’d say really more because it tips the balance between portability and screen size too far towards portability for most people. The 13” MacBook Air or Pro is perfectly portable for most, why give up an extra 1.3” screen diagonal and 20% resolution unless you’re really going to be using it on a cramped flight regularly? Maybe if they could squeeze in a 12.5-13.0” display without increasing the size it’d be a more tempting mainstream option.

It's really the definition of a niche product by anthropometrics/ ergonomics - something which falls outside the optimal design size for more than a relatively small subset of the population. I'm sure it has its ideal use cases and fans which couldn't imagine using anything else, but no, I don't think it ever would be a bestseller without becoming a compact ~13"er à la the Dell XPS 13. As someone previously noted the 11" MacBook Air never outsold the 13" despite being $100 cheaper spec for spec.
 
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