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none of your answers ever prove it isnt a scam.
the ups and downs are violent changes but as I said, so long as new people put money in it will continue.
it's is not getting ingrained no matter how hard you push to legitimize it.
that's exactly how scams work: make it seem real.
again you ignore the difference between stock markets and crypto.
you've been told enough times that listed companies had physical and IP value. real products that people weigh up the current value. crypto has NONE OF THAT.
stock value manipulation is often carried out with inside trading and is illegal and dealt with.
bad external fiscal practices (like loaning money for houses to people who should never have qualified) was also fraud in most cases. and some went to jail over it.
i will take some article that is extensive and looks at the market over your opinions any day...Well if we're just going to copy and paste...
Is this a $1.3 trillion Ponzi scheme, or are bitcoin investors finally moon-bound?
At US$67 000,00 per coin, Bitcoin (BTC) is once again the talk of the town, having briefly topped its previous all-time high by trading at US$69 210,00. Last night, sitting at the dinner table, my family grilled me on ‘what the hell investors were getting in exchange for over R1.www.linkedin.com
No, Advisors, Crypto Is Not a Ponzi Scheme
While the FTX debacle has many Ponzi-like characteristics, most cryptocurrencies do not resemble the infamous schemes.finance.yahoo.com
Busting Crypto Myths: "Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme"
In an attempt to discredit Bitcoin, many have attempted to draw parallels between the protocol and a fraudulent Ponzi scheme.blog.kraken.com
Why Bitcoin is Not a Ponzi Scheme: Point by Point
Lyn Alden compares and contrasts Bitcoin to systems that have Ponzi-like characteristics, to see if the claim that Bitcin is a ponzi holds up.www.swanbitcoin.com
Why Bitcoin is not a Ponzi scheme
Is Bitcoin a Ponzi scheme? Explore misconceptions and the reasons behind skepticism in this detailed analysis.www.withtap.com
Because I like the first one so much:
Is this a $1.3 trillion Ponzi scheme, or are bitcoin investors finally moon-bound?
By Gareth Stokes
Head: Content and Communication Strategy @ Stokes
Media | Specialist Financial Writer
March 7, 2024
At US$67 000,00 per coin, Bitcoin (BTC) is once again the talk of the town, having briefly topped its previous all-time high by trading at US$69 210,00.
Last night, sitting at the dinner table, my family grilled me on ‘what the hell investors were getting in exchange for over R1.25 million per coin’ while my LinkedIn stream served up a survey that simply required a 'yes' or 'no' response to the question: “Is Bitcoin a Ponzi?”
Neither question is easy to answer, so let us begin with the easier of the two. But before we do, please note that:
Surely not a Ponzi?!
Wikipedia.org defines a Ponzi scheme as “a form of fraud that lures investors and pays profits to earlier investors with funds from more recent investors”. Upon reading this definition, the writer’s heart screamed “Bitcoin is not a Ponzi” because of the clear absence of fraudulent interest.
Chat GPT answered the question with far more authority than your writer could muster, concluding: by the Wikipedia definition, Bitcoin does not fit the characteristics of a Ponzi scheme. There is plenty of validation for Chat GPT's answer, and for the writer’s “no” response to the aforementioned LinkedIn poll.
The primary argument is that the crypto asset’s value fluctuates based on market demand and supply and does not promise returns to investors based on the investment prowess of a third party, or anyone else. Nor is there some dodgy ‘bad actor’ hiding in the wings to divert said funds to his or her own pocket.
“Bitcoin operates on a decentralised network where transactions are recorded on a public ledger called the blockchain, and its value is determined by supply and demand dynamics, similar to other commodities or currencies,” the artificial intelligence (AI) language model declared.
Insane price action worth exploring
It is necessary to reflect on recent price movements in the cryptocurrency to further this discussion.
The previous all-time high was set in November 2021 at USD68 982,00 per coin. Over the next half-year, Bitcoin fell to around USD35 000,00 per coin, in May 2022, touched a low of around USD15 000,00 in November of that year, and then took another 12-months to re-visit the USD35 000,00 level, in November 2023. And then, in true BTC fashion, boom - to the moon?
At the time of writing, the world’s dominant crypto asset by market capitalisation was suddenly up 207% over one-year, and 56% up year-to-date early-March 2024. But before you begin your rant about ludicrous triple-digit-returns being instantly scam-worthy, consider that NASDAQ-listed Nvidia Corp, a very respectable company, is up 283% and 92% respectively, over the same time frames.
There are two drivers that explain bitcoin’s turnaround.
The first, is that the United States securities exchange recently started approving so-called ‘spot’ Bitcoin exchange traded funds (ETFs). These ETFs allow investors to gain direct exposure to Bitcoin without having to hold it in a digital wallet.
Reuters.com reported a staggering USD4.6 billion in volume on the first day of trading in these ETFs. And by the end of February 2024, Bloomberg was reporting that Blackrock had seen net cash inflows to its Bitcoin ETF for 32 straight days, including USD520 million in a single day. Retail investor-funded buying action by Grayscale, Blackrock, Fidelity and others are sending the digital coin’s price ever-higher.
Do not discount (sic) the ‘halving’
The second price-driver is the so-called Bitcoin ‘halving’ event that occurs approximately every four years, and is next predicted for 20 April 2024. This halving is hard-coded into Bitcoin’s protocol to restrict the total life-time issuance of the cryptocurrency to just (sic) 21 million coins, and consequently support its price.
In simple terms, the fee that bitcoin miners receiving for successfully mining a new block of coins reduces by half on the halving date. These miners get rewarded in Bitcoin for providing the computing power required to validate transactions on the distributed ledger that the cryptocurrency operates on.
Michael Saylor, arguably the world’s biggest Bitcoin ‘bull’ offers at least four reasons why the cryptocurrency is worth holding. He rates the crypto asset because it is a store of value due to its fixed supply and decentralised nature; it offers investors a predictable and transparent monetary policy governed by code and consensus and independent from central banks; it benefits from network effects thanks to its growing adoption and increasing acceptance globally, and it delivers security via blockchain technology and robust security features.
This writer warns, however, that Saylor’s bullishness is at least in part due to his massive exposure to the asset class. Even Chat GPT agrees: “Yes, it is possible that his personal holdings influence his bullish enthusiasm to some extent,” it said, though any self-respecting attorney would have countered with a ‘leading the witness’ objection based on how the writer prompted this response.
The AI language model conceded, however, that Saylor’s bullish outlook was supported by his assessment of the cryptocurrency’s fundamental properties, technological innovation and potential long-term impact on the financial landscape.
If you speculate, be prepared to lose your shirt
There is fine line between investing and speculating, nicely explained by Investopedia.com. “The primary difference between investing and speculating is the amount of risk undertaken,” they note. “High-risk speculation is akin to gambling whereas lower-risk investing uses a basis of fundamentals and analysis”.
To conclude this piece, the writer reminds readers that the gambling, get-rich-quick, or Ponzi scheme-worthiness of an opportunity usually derives from a human actor rather than an asset.
So, when a cryptocurrency-based scheme such as Mirror Trading International (MTI) goes to the wall, one should not blame the crypto asset, but the men and women who dreamed up the opportunity aka con or scam. Greedy, unscrupulous individuals or groups could just as easily fleece investors (sic) by offering massive returns from gold or platinum group metals (PGMs) or a venture capital opportunity or a new and innovative method of cultivating milk cultures.
The Kubus scheme, an unfortunate SA export
Just Google ‘Kubus scheme’ for a 1980s home grown scam that conned many a South African investor out of his or her savings. Finally, if you do have concerns over a financial product or opportunity, take a few moments to telephone your trusted financial adviser.
As this writer lamented to one of his publishers recently:
You should always ask the hard questions first, and only part with your hard-earned money once you are 100% sure that the opportunity you are investing in is above board.
Like I said, the burden of truth is on the accuser. You’ve done nothing to prove Bitcoin or crypto is a scam. You’ve only pointed out that there are scams (and there are in traditional finance too) and the potential for people to lose money. The same applies to all other investments that involve risk.
Texas just introduced a bill to establish a state Bitcoin reserve. It’s the second state to do so after Pennsylvania last month.
Microstrategy just got added to the Nasdaq 100, so anyone investing in a Nasdaq 100 fund (i.e. QQQ) will now have exposure to Bitcoin.
I’d say it’s on its way now. Even if the strategic reserve bills don’t pass now, the momentum is in favor of Bitcoin becoming a bigger part of the financial system over time.
And you’ve been told enough times that there are different ways of valuing crypto, and that the markets, exchanges, and order books run essentially the same.
Insider trading and market manipulation are 2 different things. But thank you for pointing out that there is also fraud, scams, and crime with stocks. 👍
And SBF, Mashinksky, Do Kwon, and other criminals who committed fraud in the crypto industry are also in jail, so I’m not sure what your point is.
Great! I gave you several articles showing how Bitcoin isn’t a scam. Check ‘em out! You’re welcome! 👍
Crypto is decentralized and not regulated like other trusted financial instruments. That means it can be used for fraudulent purposes with insufficient regulatory backstops. Until this changes, crypto can be considered a scam even if not all crypto transactions are fraudulent because any crypto transaction could be fraudulent and there are not enough legally sufficient mechanisms in place to deal with that. This increases the risk significantly, meaning that the winners will win big and the losers will lose big, and there is high volatility and low friction.
Moreover, there is little to measure the value of crypto against, since it has no intrinsic value. If I invest, for example, in a Fortune 500 company, I can have some confidence that that company will not simply evaporate because it has assets and inertia to back at least some of its stock value, and we can follow how the company performs, therefore the risk is lower and more readily ascertainable. And even if one of these companies goes belly up, creditors will have some recourse in bankruptcy proceedings.
Crypto operates only as long as there are enough participants who are willing to take the risk and have faith in the system, which involves a great deal of rationalizing at the level you have been doing throughout this thread. But all the rationalizing in the world will not be enough to prop up crypto when the rubber meets the road and there is nothing to stop it from crashing.
Yep. "Oh, you were so close. If only you'd held longer / sold sooner you'd surely have hit the jackpot."
There's another aspect of this though that I find really interesting. Gamblers generally know what they're doing-- there's superstitions and "systems", but when they win they have no problem acknowledging that lady luck smiled upon them and that their winnings were at the expense of other gamblers losing.
Among crypto traders, they don't simply think they got lucky-- they believe they're smarter than everyone else. That they're on the cutting edge of something nearly magical that others find difficult to understand or accept. That's part of what makes it so cultish, in my opinion. "They don't understand" is a way for the converted to convince each other they're special and to close off outside information. "You don't understand" is an effort to shut down conversation with a skeptic or neg the listener into joining.
This isn't the first thread where the defense of crypto rests fully on "you don't understand" and lists of adjectives that they believe among themselves to represent great meaning. If you talk to anyone in finance or economics who has dared challenge the value of crypto, that's the response they get.
There's nothing particularly hard to understand about what crypto is or about how it functions. The fact that people keep talking about it as though there is says more about their lack of understanding of finance than other's understanding of crypto currencies.
Warren Buffett’s Take on Bitcoin
Over the past decade, it’s been clear that the crypto craze isn’t something Buffett wants any part of.He described Bitcoin as “probably rat poison squared” back in 2018.
“In terms of cryptocurrencies, generally, I can say with almost certainty that they will come to a bad ending,” Buffett said in 2018. And his stance hasn’t wavered since. According to Benzinga, Buffett believes that cryptocurrencies aren’t a viable or valuable investment.
“Now if you told me you own all of the Bitcoin in the world and you offered it to me for $25, I wouldn’t take it because what would I do with it? I’d have to sell it back to you one way or another. It isn’t going to do anything,” Buffett said at the Berkshire Hathaway annual shareholder meeting in 2022.
Although the Oracle of Omaha has his misgivings about the unpredictable investment, does that mean crypto is doomed as an investment? Not necessarily.
Is Buffett Wrong About Bitcoin?
Bitcoin bulls argue that while it’s not government-issued, cryptocurrency is as fungible, divisible, secure and portable as fiat currency and gold. Because they occupy a digital space, cryptocurrencies are decentralized, scarce and durable. They can last as long as they can be stored.Crypto boosters continue to predict massive growth in the coin’s value. Earlier this year, SkyBridge Capital founder and former White House director of communications Anthony Scaramucci told reporters that Bitcoin could exceed $170,000 by mid-2025, and Ark Invest CEO Cathie Wood predicts Bitcoin will hit $1.48 million by 2030, according to Fortune.
“They really don’t understand the concept and the whole history of money,” Scaramucci said of crypto critics like Buffett on a recent episode of Jason Raznick’s “The Raz Report.” Because we place a value on “traditional” currency, it is essentially worthless compared with the transparent and trustworthy digital Bitcoin, Scaramucci said.
Currently trading around the $66,000 mark (when the article was written), Bitcoin is up nearly 50% in 2024. This means it’s massively outperforming most indexes this year, including the S&P 500, which is up about 6% in 2024.
Although Berkshire Hathaway has invested heavily in Bitcoin-related Brazilian fintech company Nu Holdings, which has its own cryptocurrency called Nucoin, it’s possible Buffett will never come around fully to crypto, despite its recent surge in value. It’s contrary to the reliable investment strategy that has served him very well for decades.
“The urge to participate in something where it looks like easy money is a human instinct which has been unleashed,” Buffett said. “People love the idea of getting rich quick, and I don’t blame them … It’s so human, and once unleashed you can’t put it back in the bottle.”
Warren Buffett Predicts ‘Bad Ending’ for Bitcoin — Is It a Doomed Investment?
Currently sitting in sixth on Forbes' Real-Time Billionaires List, Berkshire Hathaway co-founder, chairman and CEO Warren Buffett is a first-rate example of an investor who stuck to his core financial...
Bitcoin and all the other cryptos are basically the BitTorrent of finance.
The crooks who run all the servers, nodes and exchanges are always torrenting your real money into their pockets 24 hours a day seven days a week.
A lot of these pump n dump ops are run by people with direct ties to dictators, organised crime and terrorism.
You gamble your real money to pump up the value of their coins. They cash out and finance more crime, more extremism and buy up your politicians after they do the laundering.
And your society becomes slowly owned by people who will 100% impose their boot on you in the future.
The crooks who run all the servers, nodes and exchanges are always torrenting your real money into their pockets 24 hours a day seven days a week.
A lot of these pump n dump ops are run by people with direct ties to dictators, organised crime and terrorism.
You gamble your real money to pump up the value of their coins. They cash out and finance more crime, more extremism and buy up your politicians after they do the laundering.
And your society becomes slowly owned by people who will 100% impose their boot on you in the future.
List of disembodied adjectives. Check.
Claims that world renowned investor doesn't understand. Check.
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that's a much better analogy than calling it an alt currency
that's a much better analogy than calling it an alt currency
Privatise the profits, socialise the losses.
All the working people's money transferred to the whales.
There's no such thing as free money. The wins the casino owners give you today will be paid by you tomorrow...to the same people!
In Australia we've had conservative politicians talk about "Trickle Down" economics.
Usually it just puts all the money in the top end of town's pockets...
No matter where you are, the aim is always to get the poor to donate, be taxed or give their money to the rich.
In every country. Even Communist ones. Someone comes out much better at someone else's expense.
Seems we are genetically programmed to "get rich quick".
I don't want to waste anymore time talking to brick walls that can't adapt to the reality of a changing world. We're just going in circles with the same nonsense about Bitcoin and crypto being a scam. It's ludicrous to say alll of crypto is a scam just because there have been some scams in crypto. That's like saying there have been scams perpetuated using the US dollar or the stock market, so all US dollars (or the stock market) are a scam.
There are regulations that cover the crypto industry. Just like with traditional finance, there are people and even companies that are skirting around those regulations. Some have been caught and received their punishment, as they should have. I'm sure more will be caught and punished, in both crypto and traditional finance. Although, keep in mind, it was traditional finance that caused the GFC, and very few people who should have been punished were actually punished.
I'll leave you with this, for those that want to learn more about Bitcoin and crypto:
www.lynalden.com
There are many other informative articles on that site.
There are regulations that cover the crypto industry. Just like with traditional finance, there are people and even companies that are skirting around those regulations. Some have been caught and received their punishment, as they should have. I'm sure more will be caught and punished, in both crypto and traditional finance. Although, keep in mind, it was traditional finance that caused the GFC, and very few people who should have been punished were actually punished.
I'll leave you with this, for those that want to learn more about Bitcoin and crypto:
December 2024 Newsletter: The Rise of Digital Assets
December 15, 2024 This newsletter issue takes a look at the rise of digital assets, to analyze the trends behind them and see how to manage risk when investing in them. From Bear Market to Bull Market My final newsletter issue of 2023 was called “The Monetary Gates are Open” and was published in...
There are many other informative articles on that site.
Nobody took this position, you're arguing against a straw man. I'm inclined to agree, though, there's no point in your continuing the conversation if you don't plan to read and be responsive to what others have said.
Even the SEC uses the word "scam" quite liberally with respect to crypto.
https://www.investor.gov/introducti...alerts-bulletins/investor-alerts/crypto-scams
That is to say, crypto has a particularly poor reputation except among the true believers, who seem to think even Warren Buffet doesn't understand it.
https://www.investor.gov/introducti...alerts-bulletins/investor-alerts/crypto-scams
That is to say, crypto has a particularly poor reputation except among the true believers, who seem to think even Warren Buffet doesn't understand it.
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Yes, that position absolutely was taken:
Clearly, you are one of those who needs to actually read the posts, not me. I'm out and getting away from this lunacy.
False information. Lies. The SEC is not saying that crypto is a scam. It's simply warning that there are scams in crypto. You know what? There are scams in traditional finance with U.S. dollars too! In fact, there are more scams in traditional finance and the U.S. dollar, as has been pointed out.
You're wrong, simple as that, and I'm out. Bye.
"I'm out..."
and one more thing as I go... and another... and
Looks like all of those who thought it was a scam STILL think it is a SCAM...
Hopefully a few who managed to silently bear witness to this thread heed the warnings.
The sooner new gamblers stop adding money to the pot, the sooner this ends.
and one more thing as I go... and another... and
Looks like all of those who thought it was a scam STILL think it is a SCAM...
Hopefully a few who managed to silently bear witness to this thread heed the warnings.
The sooner new gamblers stop adding money to the pot, the sooner this ends.
Had a meeting with our financial advisor yesterday.
He's been around a long time
His teenage kids are following in his footsteps and monitoring stocks and crytpo.
He said it is hard to resist "investing" when his kids show him new crytpo that grows 4000% compared to his 20-26% top performers.
But he said the longer they plot them, the more the huge swings show it isnt investing at all. It's gambling.
Some win. Many lose.
He's been around a long time
His teenage kids are following in his footsteps and monitoring stocks and crytpo.
He said it is hard to resist "investing" when his kids show him new crytpo that grows 4000% compared to his 20-26% top performers.
But he said the longer they plot them, the more the huge swings show it isnt investing at all. It's gambling.
Some win. Many lose.
Reminder: Bitcoin is not a hedge against inflation.
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I need to turn off notifications for this thread, but since I saw this in my email I'm going to respond.
YOU. ARE. WRONG.
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
The interest rate change was already priced in, so the markets moving was not in response to the interest rate changing. The decline in valuations (and this goes for stocks as well) was because of the forward guidance of less interest rate cuts in 2025, plus the Fed saying inflation is stickier and even forecasting inflation to move up next year.
That news was bad for all markets because it meant less liquidity coming into the markets in the future (with lower interest rates) than was previously expected from the Fed's previous forecasts, and that is why there was a larger and wider sell-off during the press conference.
It's also because economists are now really questioning whether or not the Fed made the right decision. Many think the interest rate cut wasn't necessary and will cause inflation to move back up. That's bad news for markets because it means the Fed would actually need to raise interest rates again, which means even less liquidity coming in the future.
Between the time the interest rate change was announced and the start of the press conference, BTC price moved down about 1% from $104,768 to $103,656. You know what though? Half an hour before rates were announced, BTC made nearly the same move, then went back up, and then went down the 1% on the announcement. BTC moves up and down 1% or more pretty much everyday, so the 1% move isn't unusual.
It was during and after the press conference that the BTC price fell further to near $100,000. It then fell further later in the day and night. Stocks also moved further down during and after the press conference. Stocks moved lower today too. Bitcoin and crypto are more volatile, and trade 24/7, so the price move in response is not surprising. It's all because the markets did not like what they were hearing from the Fed during the press conference.
Also, there were plenty of stocks that performed just as poorly yesterday on a relative scale as Bitcoin. All assets went down, including commodities, at the exact same time. INCLUDING GOLD! And gold is the most widely accepted "hedge against inflation" there is. You cannot judge a hedge against inflation on its performance over a single day, let alone one hour or a few minutes. Bitcoin is also a risk asset. It does have volatility. This is known. Hedges against inflation are long-term, not short-term.
YOU HAVE A LOT MORE TO LEARN. Stop trying to make it look like you're an expert when you clearly are not. You can read plenty of articles and expert commentary that explains all this, and more.
Again, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.
To anyone else reading this thread:
Have an open mind. Have a vision for the future. Stop reading just headlines or the false narrative that an entire asset class accepted by hundreds of millions of people around the world and being adopted by corporations, institutions, and states, and nations is a scam. Do the research yourself. Find out what money really is, how it worked for thousands of years, how it works now, how the economy really works, what fractional reserve banking is, why gold is no longer the backing asset of the dollar, why nothing backs the dollar (or any fiat), how and why more fiat is printed, why we have a greater than $36T of debt that continues to grow, and more. Learn the stuff and stop listening to the nonsense that others spew out and make a choice for yourself (AFTER) you learn.
Try reading "Broken Money" by Lyn Alden.
I'm out (for real, turning off notifications) because it's impossible to get a brick wall to understand how things actually work.
Crypto evangelists know that the only way for their gamble to work out relies on new people being convinced to put more money into the bubble. New money is the only source of profit for cryptocurrency "investors." They need your money.
It is not a sense of altruism or a desire for others to succeed that animates the behavior on display in this thread. It's a fundamental process of how crypto works. Find more people willing to put in more money. Always find more money. Grow the bubble larger with more money. Evangelize, proselytize, advertise.
When the flow of real money into crypto eventually slows or falters the music stops and we get to see who won and who lost. Every dollar won is a dollar lost by someone else. Timing this last part is apparently very easy to predict if you listen to the enthusiasts, some of whom have a successful track record of doing so and some of whom are last cycle's losers who are convinced that this time they'll know when to sell before the music stops.
Everyone in crypto is waiting with their fingers on the sell button playing chicken with the charts, hoping or convincing themselves that this time they'll be the ones to call the top and make a well-timed sell. All while yelling loudly and trying to convince anyone they can that the water is fine and we should all jump on in.
Honestly, nobody really needs to learn anything beyond that in their effort to understand how crypto works.
It is not a sense of altruism or a desire for others to succeed that animates the behavior on display in this thread. It's a fundamental process of how crypto works. Find more people willing to put in more money. Always find more money. Grow the bubble larger with more money. Evangelize, proselytize, advertise.
When the flow of real money into crypto eventually slows or falters the music stops and we get to see who won and who lost. Every dollar won is a dollar lost by someone else. Timing this last part is apparently very easy to predict if you listen to the enthusiasts, some of whom have a successful track record of doing so and some of whom are last cycle's losers who are convinced that this time they'll know when to sell before the music stops.
Everyone in crypto is waiting with their fingers on the sell button playing chicken with the charts, hoping or convincing themselves that this time they'll be the ones to call the top and make a well-timed sell. All while yelling loudly and trying to convince anyone they can that the water is fine and we should all jump on in.
Honestly, nobody really needs to learn anything beyond that in their effort to understand how crypto works.