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Got it. I think this is where I was getting confused. I wasn't realizing people are updating first. I assumed I would have a fresh install of Catalina on my Mac and a cloned external HDD on Mojave and didn't know how to move over files from two different os.

But what you are saying makes sense:

Upgrade to Carolina.
Make a clone
Do a fresh install of catilina
Bring over files that I want or need from cloned ssd.

Now I am confused. Why do you feel like you need to do a fresh install of Catalina if you have already updated to it?

I would clone the 10.14 install to the external drive as a back up. Update to 10.15 and be done with it. You have the clone on the external drive to fall back on if anything goes wrong with the update.
 
OK, it looks like another discussion of updating to a new version of the Mac OS versus doing a clean, fresh installation of it. I am going to explain, again, my procedure for doing a fresh, clean installation of a new (or newer) version of the Mac OS.

First of all, no matter which approach one takes, it is imperative to already have a recent backup. I cannot stress that enough. Myself, I always do 2 backups every week for each of my Macs to external "devices" (actually partitions, which I describe below).

Secondly, and again this applies to no matter which approach one takes, it is also critical to insure that any and all third party software one uses is compatible with the new Mac OS one is "moving to". Again, cannot stress how important that is.

Third, before beginning, and at least because I use the "clean installation" approach, it is imperative to 1) have already downloaded the full installation file, 2) make a copy of it to another location on your Mac, and 3) remove the one inside the Applications folder.

OK, I am now going to describe what I do. I am "speaking" from the aspect of using SuperDuper! (SD) as my backup software, and this same procedure is also applicable for people that use the other excellent program, Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC). I cannot speak for Time Machine, as I have never used it. The distinct advantage of either SD or CCC is that the backups each of them make are bootable. Let me repeat that: such backups are bootable. That means that after the backup completes, one can boot their machine from such a backup. That to me (and I suspect others) is a huge feature and advantage of either SD or CCC over Time Machine.

One other thing to my case: My Mac Mini has a 256 gig SSD, and my MacBook Air has a 252 gig SSD. For both of those machines, I am using less than 90 gig of space. Hence, for the external SSDs I am backing up to, each of them are 512 gig in size, but I have 3 partitions on each of them. Two of those partitions are about 110 gig in size, which I use for each of my backups for each of my machines. SD (and I suspect CCC) are "smart" enough to handle the backups. That is, even though the total size of the SSD I am backing up from is 256/252 gig, SD just "knows" that it is backing up less than 90 gig, and thus can backup to a "device"/partition size of 110 gig. Obviously, if the source device I am backing up from is using more than 110 gig in space, the "associated" partition on my external SSD would need to be larger than 110 gig.

OK, I can FINALLY start describing my procedure:

1. Use Onyx and TechTool to do one final disk cleanup and maintenance of my current Mac OS system (right now, that is Mojave).

2. Use SuperDuper! to do the 2 backups to the respective partitions on my external SSDs. Remember, this is backing up EVERYTHING on the respective Mac to that external partition.

3. Restart my Mac from that just completed SuperDuper! backup. Again, remember that such backups are bootable.

4. Select Disk Utility there (ie, on the backup), and use it to Erase and Format the internal SSD on the respective Mac I just backed up from, in step 2 above.

5. Navigate to the location of that downloaded full installation file of the Mac OS I am "moving to" (I mentioned that above).

6. Launch that file, and do a clean, fresh, virgin installation of that Mac OS onto the internal SSD of the respective Mac.

7. Once that installation completes (and the installer does this), I am offered the opportunity to migrate "files" (ie, Applications, Data files/folders, Settings, etc.) from either another Mac, or a backup. So, I just point the installer to that just completed SuperDuper! backup to obtain all that "stuff", and away it goes.

8. Once that completes, I restart my Mac from the "new Mac OS" internal SSD on the respective Mac.

9. In my particular case, I then have 2 additional things to take care of:

A. For the excellent program Onyx, Titanium software develops Mac OS-specific versions of it. So, I would remove the "prior OS" version fo Onyx, and install the new one.

B. For TechTool Pro, I need to set up an eDrive partition. That partition is needed to use a lot of the features of TechTool Pro.

That might seem like a lot of work and effort, but I have been doing it for so, so long, that it is second nature to me. Also, I ALWAYS wind up with a stable system.

OK, I am going to leave this as is, and am not going to comment on just upgrading a present Mac OS to a new one. Suffice to say that for some folks, such an approach works fine, but if i were to do it, I would not do it for more than one of two prior versions of the Mac OS.
 
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orion1234

macrumors member
Dec 3, 2019
34
14
My experience with Catalina 10.15.1 has been mixed and on the buggy side:

Bugs:

After a few days (perhaps 2+) of uptime, it's common to have the system slow down to the point of
unusability, requiring a restart which fixes things. This is something that never affected performance while running Mojave. Others have described this happening in the forums so I am hopeful this gets ironed out in upcoming point releases.

Flakey reconnection of standard bluetooth mouse: after my mouse goes to sleep, using it again works, then the mouse pointer is unresponsive for several seconds, before becoming active again. This happens 1-2x in rapid succession, and then is normal until it goes to sleep after a period of inactivity (not using it for about 5-15 mins). I have tried things like deleting the bluetooth plist file but this has not helped. This bug has been reported by others using Catalina, and hopefully upcoming releases will fix this.

My magic mouse does not suffer from bluetooth reconnection woes, but I dislike its ergonomics and don't use it with Catalina.

Bugs with workarounds:

Losing local file storage space (can be several GB or more) due to periodic system snapshots from Time Machine not being deleted, even after a backup to an external TM drive has completed. This is known bug with Catalina, and there are instructions on how to use the command line to find and delete these pesky snapshots. Annoying, but one can deal.

Occasionally Finder cannot be selected using the command-tab shortcut, and I need to use the mouse to click the Finder icon on the Dock to select it. This has been an intermittent bug I've experienced across multiple laptops and desktops since Mountain Lion through and up to Catalina. I'm guessing it's a deep-seated bug, but the workaround takes only a moment to execute and then command-tab resumes working.

Performance issues:

On a regular basis normal system processes would take up high amounts of CPU time for way too long. Either kernel_task, sysmond or other processes would eat CPU % to the point it would chop battery life down from roughly 9 hours to about 3 or less. Reading about this issue, it seems that some of the security measures of periodically verifying each app's integrity as part of the SIP routines was the problem. Disabling SIP fixed this issue. I'd prefer not to disable SIP, but cutting battery life and performance so severely seemed a poor trade.

On rare occasion the system will freeze, which is only resolved with a hard reboot, but I occasionally had that issue with Mojave and High Sierra (2018 Macbook Pro) so I don't fault Catalina for that.

Despite all of these things, I like being able to use new features like Catalyst apps and Sidecar, and don't regret upgrading, but the general idea of waiting until the 3rd point release or so before upgrading is always sound advice. I'm hopeful all of the above will be resolved over the next several point releases (except for the rare system freezes since that has been a staple of the last three OS releases for me).

I think Apple is aware of the frustration of its users with respect to software quality, and as a recent news item here on MacRumors mentioned, they are tweaking their software development processes so newer versions won't introduce new bugs. My feeling is that some of weird/nasty bugs are hitting users of relatively new Apple hardware (such as with GPU-related bugs and artifacts) and fixing these would help restore confidence in the platform.
 
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Despite all of these things, I like being able to use new features like Catalyst apps and Sidecar, and don't regret upgrading, but the general idea of waiting until the 3rd point release or so before upgrading is always sound advice. I'm hopeful all of the above will be resolved over the next several point releases (except for the rare system freezes since that has been a staple of the last three OS releases for me).
Well stated! And of course there is the other important consideration: one must insure that all the third party software one uses must be compatible with the new Mac OS (Catalina now). It's amazing how often I see folks rush to install the first version of a new OS, but don't take into account the third party software they use.

In my case, there is one more application, TechTool Pro, that I am waiting for to have Catalina compatibility. Based on what happened with Mojave, that might not be until January 2020. Last January (2019), when the Mojave-compatible version of TechTool Pro was released, it actually was not very far from the release of the third version of Mojave, V10.14.3. So, that is where I started from when I "moved" to Mojave (via the clean installation route). All of that worked out real well.
 
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i4k20c

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2005
874
126
Now I am confused. Why do you feel like you need to do a fresh install of Catalina if you have already updated to it?

I would clone the 10.14 install to the external drive as a back up. Update to 10.15 and be done with it. You have the clone on the external drive to fall back on if anything goes wrong with the update.

the whole point is i want to do a clean install. i am on 10.14 right now and want to update to 10.15. i have a lot of random app files and junk that i'd like to start fresh from.


....because I use the "clean installation" approach, it is imperative to 1) have already downloaded the full installation file, 2) make a copy of it to another location on your Mac, and 3) remove the one inside the Applications folder...

thank you for explaining it in full detail. i am very appreciative of it.
 
the whole point is i want to do a clean install. i am on 10.14 right now and want to update to 10.15. i have a lot of random app files and junk that i'd like to start fresh from.
It would be best if you begin to do as much disk cleanup on your own as possible. Also, there are some excellent programs available (both free and commercial) that can help you with disk cleanup/maintenance/repairs. One excellent free one is Onyx:

https://www.titanium-software.fr/en/onyx.html

Make sure you get the version specific to Mojave, v3.6.8. But as always, make sure you have a current backup first before using it. It is a very solid program, has been around for a number of years, and I depend on it (also the excellent commercial program TechTool Pro).

Also, what third party software do you use?

Finally, it might be better to wait until V10.15.2 of Catalina is released. It is in beta testing now, but should come out shortly.

thank you for explaining it in full detail. i am very appreciative of it.
You are most welcome!
 

i4k20c

macrumors 6502a
Sep 10, 2005
874
126
Also, what third party software do you use?

Finally, it might be better to wait until V10.15.2 of Catalina is released. It is in beta testing now, but should come out shortly.


You are most welcome!

Yes - i will wait till at least 10.15.2 or 10.15.3.

some 3rd party apps that i use are:

Dropbox
Fantastical 2
iStat 6
ClipMenu
BetterTouchTool
NTFS for Mac
AppZapper
Carbon Copy Cloner
coconutBattery
Command-Tab Plus
diskdrill
Evernote
igetter 2.9.7
iMazing
keka
Logitech Options
MS Office
PDF Expert
R Studio
Skitch
VLC
Zoom
Skype
Adium
 
That's a very god idea, i4k20c. This site can help you with determining which of your apps are compatible (some might first require upgrades):

https://roaringapps.com/apps

Also, it looks like you use a couple of third party apps that I use. VLC, of course, is an excellent one. The latest version is 3.0.8. Similarly, Logitech options. And from what I have seen, Carbon Copy Cloner did already come out with a version that is compatible with Catalina. I use SuperDuper!, and its Catalina-compatible version came out last week.

BTW, I use AppCleaner, which (from what I understand) is very similar to AppZapper. I also use LibreOffice, which is similar to MS Office (except it does not have an EMail client like some MS Office "packages" have (Outlook is of course that program)).

In any event, you might want to check that site to see if you need to upgrade any of them. Also, this site can be useful in seeing what new versions of software are available:

https://www.macupdate.com/

It is not always immediately current, but it is a good resource.

Of course, you could always check the program's website. Some software also have a "Check For Updates" menu choice (typically under its File menu).
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,252
5,563
ny somewhere
meanwhile, i continue to enjoy both my macs on catalina, with a simple upgrade from mojave (& some attentive care). not always necessary to over-complicate things... :cool:
 
meanwhile, i continue to enjoy both my macs on catalina, with a simple upgrade from mojave (& some attentive care). not always necessary to over-complicate things... :cool:
And meanwhile I will wait until the Catalina-compatible version of TechTool Pro is released, at which time I will do a clean, fresh,, "virgin" installation of the latest available version of Catalina. And of course I will continue to do my daily and weekly disk cleanup and maintenance, and my weekly SuperDuper! backups.
 

fisherking

macrumors G4
Jul 16, 2010
11,252
5,563
ny somewhere
And meanwhile I will wait until the Catalina-compatible version of TechTool Pro is released, at which time I will do a clean, fresh,, "virgin" installation of the latest available version of Catalina. And of course I will continue to do my daily and weekly disk cleanup and maintenance, and my weekly SuperDuper! backups.

why do you need to do another install? are you having issues? i just don't get obsession. meanwhile, 95% of the mac user base continues to do their actual work...
 
why do you need to do another install? are you having issues? i just don't get obsession. meanwhile, 95% of the mac user base continues to do their actual work...
I already "kind of" answered this in some other posts, but I'll repeat them.

First of all, I insist on having a "lean, mean, and clean" system. I have already mentioned my daily cleanup activities (takes an extremely small amount of time), along with my weekly usage of Onyx and TechTool Pro.

Secondly, every Saturday, I run Onyx and TechTool Pro on both of my Macs, along with using SuperDuper! for making 2 backups for each of my Macs. But I am also multi-tasking while that is going on (folks seem to have difficulty understanding that). I am cleaning our town home while most of those tasks are running. In fact, backups (except for getting them started) can be left to run alone (which is exactly what I do, and thus can multi-task). And typically, I complete those tasks before I am done cleaning. Adding a clean installation of Catalina, along with a migration of my "stuff", to that would not add much more time.

Third, I am not one who sits at their computer day in and day out. I actually don't expect to do too much "computer tasks" on Saturdays anyway (except for what I mentioned above), so any perceived "loss" of computer time is not applicable in my case. And again, I am multi-tasking.

Finally, I have been doing all of that for so, so long (and other cleaning/maintenance/repair chores also), it is second nature to me. And the best thing of all is that I wind up with a clean, trouble-free system.
 

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Nov 21, 2019
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I already "kind of" answered this in some other posts, but I'll repeat them.

First of all, I insist on having a "lean, mean, and clean" system. I have already mentioned my daily cleanup activities (takes an extremely small amount of time), along with my weekly usage of Onyx and TechTool Pro.

Updates from both 10.11 to 10.14 and 10.13 to 10.14 resulted in more free disk space. Recent Mac OS updates are pretty good about removing clutter.
 

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For Apple and OS-related items, I suspect that is the case. But not for third party apps.

Also, a clean install would accomplish the same (and maybe be somewhat "cleaner").

But...you already have applications that clean the cache clutter. You already do this on a weekly basis, remember?

Clean installs are used as a tactic to remove old and unused OS files.
 
But...you already have applications that clean the cache clutter. You already do this on a weekly basis, remember?

True.

Clean installs are used as a tactic to remove old and unused OS files.

So why not take advantage of that? I am doing just that.

I suspect that with all my cleaning activities, I could get away with just an update. But to me, that still feels not 100% clean, for just what you said above, about removing old and unused files. Seems like that would be a good thing.
 
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