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Copying a friends iTunes library

Actually, as odd as this is going to sound, under property law, your wife and kids DO have explicit use of the content. Also, taking it a step further, your wife and yourself would, presumably, be in a common law situation (having been married and licensed by the state), thereby allowing her complete access to this media.

I don't want to sit here debating property and IP law all day, but unlike the last poster, this IS clear cut, it is NOT 'muddy' water, and sharing this music with friends IS illegal. It's been adjudicated out to the nth degree. One only needs to read about the judgements currently being handed out in BOTH the RIAA favor and against them to understand the situation. Arstechnica.com does an excellent job of reporting and summarizing them for the lay person, for anyone who is interested.

Let's assume this is illegal, for argument's sake. Let's also assume you authorize a friend to use your library. That computer, it's IP address, and all pertinent information is on Apple's servers; after all, you just authorized that computer directly with Apple. If the RIAA jumps in and decides to read the forum thread and sue both the distributor of the content (the OP) and his friend (the recipient), they will not only sue the OP for illegal file sharing, but sue him for distributing the content, which, in the court's view, makes him more culpable in this situation and thus responsible for stiffer penalties than his friend.

In the Jammie Thomas v. RIAA in Minnesota, they went after her for distributing the songs and found her liable for higher damages as she was actively distributing copyrighted content to others. Now, before anyone chimes in that the case was declared a mistrial, it wasn't that she was found not guilty of sharing copyrighted IP, it was the fact that her attorney managed to convince the court of appeals that they hadn't proved that any actual sharing had taken place, only that she had offered them up.

What I'm getting to (yes, there is a point here) is that with the iTunes method of sharing, they will not only know you shared, but EXACTLY who you shared with. Just my $.02.
 
Cromulent said:
Apple are not the ones who make the rules when it comes to sharing music. It is the record labels and the artists.
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Not exactly - it is the federal government / Digital Copyright Act.

As far as the non-commercial aspect - by sharing it with a friend, you are denying the artist to make money from the friend purchasing the music like they should. So technically the artist and/or parent company can claim financial losses.

I don't get it - why do so many people want to rip off the artists they enjoy so much? You may as well be stealing their instruments at a gig. It is illegal - plain and simple. Just because you are not likely to get caught doesn't make it right.
 
Alrescha said:
Not entirely accurate. You need to authorize their computer, they don't need to know your account information on an ongoing basis. Apple's use of the word 'should' is just trying to get people to protect their userid and password appropriately.
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It dosen`t matter if you don`t give them your username and password, the very act of authorizing your friends computer means they have access to content from your account that only you are authorized to use.

Thanks for muddying the waters. No-one was talking about complete strangers.
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The law is the same weather for a friend or a complete stranger. Weather I go out and murder a complete stranger or my best friend it`s still against the law.

One could argue that 'personal friends' meets the requirement of 'personal use' in the same way that wives and children do.
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Well if one could argue that 'personal friends' meet the requirements then why not the complete stranger who lives down the road. Laws don`t change just because someone is a personal friend.


You`ve really gotta love these sort of debates:)
 
roidy said:
Lime wire is allowed to exist because by the very nature of how P2P works its impossible to shut down. And yes P2P is legal but only if you own the rights to the files or have permision to share the files.
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Exactly. The P2P programs are legal because there are legitimate uses for them. Swapping copyrighted music is not a legitimate use, but policing just that is nearly impossible without shutting down the P2P software, which cannot legally be done.
 
I think when alot of us refer to P2P we mean the act of swapping music over P2P, not the software itself. Besides, if Comcast and TWC have their way with deep packet inspection and bandwith caps, P2P will slow to a trickle.
 
Rich1963 said:
I don't want to sit here debating property and IP law all day, but unlike the last poster, this IS clear cut, it is NOT 'muddy' water, and sharing this music with friends IS illegal.
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I do not think that it is as clear cut as you make it seem. What the OP asked has never appeared in court (nor do I think it ever will). In all the cases you cite and all the cases that I am aware of, the individuals involved had no right to copy or duplicate material. The iTunes TOS gives you an explicit right to copy - something many people here seems happy to ignore. Furthermore, that section of the TOS makes no mention whatsoever about *what* computers. They do not say 'your computers', just five computers. You would think that if they intended to restrict, they would have done so there.

Just to be clear, I buy my material. I own hundreds of DVDs, hundreds of CDs, and plenty of HD stuff from the iTunes store. I am not advocating that anyone do anything illegal, immoral, or fattening. What am I suggesting is that it is just possible that both Apple and the RIAA are perfectly happy if you share your music with five friends using their authorization mechanism.

A.
 
First of all, iTunes does EXPLICITLY state what computers. The account holder's personnal computers. No wiggle room there.

Secondly, just because an iTunes user hasn't appeared in court (that we know of) this has already been adjudicated 20,000 times (that number is not made up - it's the actual amount of RIAA cases filed so far) and been upheld by state and federal courts 99.98% of the time. You own the music. You purchase it for your individual enjoyment. Your friend did not. It's THAT simple.

To put this into perspective, I'm an avid sportsman and shooter. In Minnesota, conceal and carry is also legal. I probably go to the gun range once a month. I cannot tell you the false, misleading, and outright illegal advice handed out by gun store employees, gun manufacturer reps, and fellow enthusiasts with regards to gun ownership, carry permits, and rights to self defense. In the end, there is only one arbitor of the law, and it's none of the above, but they are all more than happy to sit there all day telling you what they 'think' can and cannot be done. Their knowledge and 'feelings' on the subject doesn't make it anymore correct.

That's the same thing going on here. There is only one set of rules, and only one person who can choose not to enforce those rules, and folks, it ain't Apple. So go ahead and take their advice, if that's what they truly said. But remember, Apple is not the rights holder, and besides one person's claim of talking to an operator at Apple, I have seen NO exemptions granted by the RIAA or MPAA on the subject to end users.

On a side note, I called the Apple store here in Minnesota at Ridgedale Mall and spoke with the store manager. I asked him the same question, and while he was pretty sure only you could possess your personnal music, he asked for an hour and would call me back. To his credit, he did call me back. After speaking with someone at Apple's store help line, he said "Most definitely not." He furthermore said that it was one of the reasons that without help of an outside program, an Ipod is unable to sync back to a computer, and only can be loaded with music from your collection, not the other way around.

When I mentioned this thread and that a forum user had supposedly spoken with someone at Apple's help line, his two responses were "better safe than sorry" and "In the end, the music you purchase leaves you responsible, via the terms of service, to abide by all federal and state laws with regards to copyright laws and IP".
 
Rich1963 said:
First of all, iTunes does EXPLICITLY state what computers. The account holder's personnal computers. No wiggle room there.
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I can't decide if this is deliberate falsehood or if you can't separate what you think the TOS means from what it actually says. Nowhere in the TOS does it say "the account holder's personal computers". That's what "explicitly" would mean. You are gluing together different statements in the TOS and creating your own fiction. Yes, one could argue that it might mean that, but it does not *say* that.

Since we can't even agree about the contents of a document which is visible for all to see I suggest that further discussion is pointless.

A.
 
If you cannot comprehend what the phrase "copying only for personal, non-commercial use" means in the TOS, you truly have my deep sympathy. LASIK is available in your area.

Any first year law grad pushing a mail cart through his/her firm would explain to you personal means your person and your person only (except in the related marraige, common law example).

Here's what I recommend. If you are so confident that you are right, authorize a friend, call the RIAA, and let them know what you've done. Get back to us in six months when you've declared bankruptcy, have a second mortgage, and clip coupons to go to McDonalds for a fun night out due to the civil penalties imposed upon you by the court.

As I stated before, 20,000 lawsuits and counting can't be wrong. And I challenge you to explain how his friend coming over to his house and physically copying his hard drive to another one differs in any way, shape, or form to him and his friend doing this exact same action via P2P software. Why do you think Apple started tagging this stuff with your iTunes ID# when they went to iTunes plus?

Footnote: While I am arguing as strenuously as possible against this, I also think the RIAA is just one step short of the Gestapo and has their own personal room reserved in hell. But that's an entirely seperate discussion.
 
I'm surprised that this debate has gone on for so long. I don't know how anyone, thinking logically could say that having a person copy anther person's library would be allowed? (Whether it's a friend or stranger.... just any other person)
 
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but legal advice from Tier 1 customer service in India is good enough for me. :confused:
 
Rich1963 said:
Well, I don't know about everyone else, but legal advice from Tier 1 customer service in India is good enough for me. :confused:
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wow really?! you're going to go there?

the person i talked to (Crystal was her name not a very common Indian name is it?:rolleyes:) was defintiley not from India. she spoke with a southern accent mixed with some New York. so unless she, A: moved there for the work or B: adapted that accent and a fake name to fool customers, she was not in India.
 
ViciousShadow21 said:
wow really?! you're going to go there?

the person i talked to (Crystal was her name not a very common Indian name is it?:rolleyes:) was defintiley not from India. she spoke with a southern accent mixed with some New York. so unless she, A: moved there for the work or B: adapted that accent and a fake name to fool customers, she was not in India.
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If I told you that the manager of the Yorkdale (Toronto) store told me that a) no one at Apple is able to make that decision and b) it's likely not allowed AND that two employees of an Apple store in Waterloo told me that it's probably not allowed, would it change your mind at all to rely so much on Crystal's opinion?
 
ViciousShadow21 said:
if you read my earlier post i called apple and they said it was ok. what else do you need to know?
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I need to know if that Apple person was any more credible than anyone on this forum. In terms of support people, I have been on the phone with Apple Care telling me that the Apple store will 100% replace my laptop no questions asked while the Genius at the Apple Store said there is NO chance of it being replaced. Later I was on the phone with Rogers (cell company) tech support telling me that they have contacted a store manager to ensure that a replacement phone is at the store but when I arrived at the store the store manager said that no call centre rep has ever contacted them... point being that just because someone at Apple said it's ok isn't necessarily the best argument.
 
JonHimself said:
I need to know if that Apple person was any more credible than anyone on this forum. In terms of support people, I have been on the phone with Apple Care telling me that the Apple store will 100% replace my laptop no questions asked while the Genius at the Apple Store said there is NO chance of it being replaced. Later I was on the phone with Rogers (cell company) tech support telling me that they have contacted a store manager to ensure that a replacement phone is at the store but when I arrived at the store the store manager said that no call centre rep has ever contacted them... point being that just because someone at Apple said it's ok isn't necessarily the best argument.
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dont really know what this has to do with what i was talking about. so far the examples you have given have been miscommunication between call center and stores.

and as for who to rely on i would take Crystal's word over the other two seeing that she was specific to iTunes store help. not some manager for an apple store in Canada.
 
1- Last time I called Apple, I'm 100% sure that it started in India, then bounced back over the ocean (I asked). That individual's name was Jeffrey. When I asked his real name, he said he wasn't permitted to tell me, but the accent did give me clues. So yes, India.

2-As now both Jonhimself and myself have both done, we called multiple Apple stores, and the response was always the same. I know, I know. For some people, a faceless customer service rep. who may or may not be reading from a flow chart is good enough. But for me, where my financial future may be at stake, I like to follow case law, the TOS that states 'my own personal use', and multiple people who work in the USA at Apple who are probably better versed on Apple's US policies.

I will alter my suggestion I made earlier with regards to the RIAA and recommend this. Here is the RIAA's phone number - 202/775-0101. Call them. Ask them whether you can share your iTunes library with another individual of no legal relationship (remember to mention, though, that he is a close friend. I'm sure that'll carry weight). See what they say. I'm gonna guess that their answer is a little different than the one the Apple tier 1 help line gave you based in God knows where.

We await your reply. This ought to be good.
 
Also, as a follow-up, I sent an email to the iTunes store's online help dept., and will await their response. When I get it, I will redact the personal information and post it here. And don't forget, it wasn't just a store in Canada, I also called the one in Minnesota (and the manager's answer was from Apple's internal employee help line, as the manager told me).
 
Rich1963 said:
1- Last time I called Apple, I'm 100% sure that it started in India, then bounced back over the ocean (I asked). That individual's name was Jeffrey. When I asked his real name, he said he wasn't permitted to tell me, but the accent did give me clues. So yes, India.

2-As now both Jonhimself and myself have both done, we called multiple Apple stores, and the response was always the same. I know, I know. For some people, a faceless customer service rep. who may or may not be reading from a flow chart is good enough. But for me, where my financial future may be at stake, I like to follow case law, the TOS that states 'my own personal use', and multiple people who work in the USA at Apple who are probably better versed on Apple's US policies.

I will alter my suggestion I made earlier with regards to the RIAA and recommend this. Here is the RIAA's phone number - 202/775-0101. Call them. Ask them whether you can share your iTunes library with another individual of no legal relationship (remember to mention, though, that he is a close friend. I'm sure that'll carry weight). See what they say. I'm gonna guess that their answer is a little different than the one the Apple tier 1 help line gave you based in God knows where.
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do you really think the OP cares about the argument we're having right now? like he's sitting there waiting for us to finnish and then is going to make his decision? No. he has probably already gotten his friend's music had him authorize his computer and gone on his merry way.

i would say that we (including me) are obsessing about this way to much. we live in the real world. everyone breaks the law to a minor extent. im not saying that this makes it right, but i am saying let's be realistic.

as for the RIAA, they need to get a better hold on their music. if ppl can get away with downloading their stuff for free with out any consequences they're going to do it. have you looked at a bittorrent site. it's ridiculous the amount of stealing that goes on. i could go right now and download the whole discography for pretty much any artist i want and have it in about 4-12hrs. so until they can get a grip and better security ppl will take advantages of their weaknesses.

anyway im done i dont care about this anymore.

sayonara
 
So, because a fruit stand vendor walks away from his stand to take a pee break, grab all of the apples you want? Great morals. I'm sure your progeny will be shining examples in society.
 
Rich1963 said:
So, because a fruit stand vendor walks away from his stand to take a pee break, grab all of the apples you want? Great morals. I'm sure your progeny will be shining examples in society.
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the only reason i am responding to this is because you made an inaccurate assumption about me personally.

i never said that i support this kind of behavior

ViciousShadow21 said:
we live in the real world. everyone breaks the law to a minor extent. im not saying that this makes it right, but i am saying let's be realistic.
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first of all, bad analogy. second, ppl unfortunately do steal from the fruit vendor when he is away peeing. do you think you arguing with me on macrumors is going to change that. if you really care get out there and do something about it! but dont pretend that you are doing any good preaching to us about morals in here because that just makes you a hypocrite.

to sum up, i dont think it's right but the OP doesnt really care what you or i think. he probably had his mind made up one way or the other before he even posted this question. i was just pointing out how easy it is to steal music. and as long as it stays that way then, yea, ppl will continue to do it. i for one do not steal music because i am a musician and understand how hurtful it is to our kind.
 
You're a musician, but are arguing for the theft in the original poster's instance. Hypocrite.

Do what you want. Just because it's easy to do though, doesn't make it right. And it's not the RIAA's responsibility to lock music down better. It's simply a person's moral responsibility not to take what isn't yours. I've sited numerous reasons what sharing your iTunes account isn't legal, but if you still want to do it, share away. Just remember, someone's always watching. I'm done; you're hopeless.
 
ViciousShadow21 said:
dont really know what this has to do with what i was talking about. so far the examples you have given have been miscommunication between call center and stores.
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My point was just that because someone in an authorative position tells you something, doesn't absolutely make it true. I was told two different things by two people who (presumably) should have given me the same answer. It is possible that Crystal has given you the wrong information.
 
While I think I've made the argument quite definitively that it's illegal (just because someone oh so wants it to be one way still doesn't make it so), and I'm moving on, I will still come back to this thread if and when I get the email from iTunes.

Holla!
 
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