Other Could the 13 mini be repositioned as small mid-tier offering?

[JPack]

Overpriced compared to the 12..certainly. The Mini, with the smaller screen, is also in that line-up a niche product. Peoples willingness to spend money on the regular 12 and 12ProMax does in no way negate the pricing argument, it has more to do with demand for a larger screen size.

It don't know what people have said, it's little consequence to me and simply my personal take on it. With the very late release date of the Mini, I'm just hypothesising what contributed to sales not being stellar.

I never understood the "overpriced" argument. Apple has always maintained a $100 price gap between the 4.7" and 5.5" models from iPhone 6 to iPhone 8. There is a $100 difference between the 5.8" and 6.5" models. Nobody complained about the 4.7" or 5.8" models being overpriced.

Now, that same $100 difference between the 12 and 12 mini is suddenly considered overpriced.

Is there any actual logic behind that claim?

 

[boak]

I have the mini and I love it. I have rather small hands yet it's easy enough to grip with one hand. The regular is comfortable to grip with one hand as well but it's quite a bit more difficult to navigate. I use AssistiveTouch on my mini, with Notification Centre as one of the options on the menu, and a long tap brings down the Control Centre. I use a large battery Widget to push the apps down by 2 rows on the Home Screen. Little tweaks and the mini became very usable with one hand.

 

[boak]

It does in terms of PPI (476 PPI), it actually has the highest PPI of any Apple product in its history. Its only a few PPI higher than the other 12 models, but technically it is the highest. The Pro models do have an extra 100 nits brightness though.

Ah yes, the brightness is better on the Pro models. Though it's software-limited by Apple to upsell the Pro. Price discrimination at its finest.

 

[JPack]

I know right, said detractor seems to have a personal crusade against the 12 mini, almost like a strange obsession with it to be honest. Maybe deep down they actually really love the 12 mini considering how much attention they seem to give it

Nah, it's just funny watching you guys try every excuse to explain the poor sales. There's an obvious lack of critical thinking because most of the theories thrown around don't go deeper than the surface level. What's more, you guys are trying to argue against Apple's decision next year to discontinue the mini. Maybe you thought of something that the leadership team behind a $2T company missed? Probably not.


"Maybe it was the pandemic!"

• The 6.1" and 6.5" models were best sellers even before the pandemic. Reviews praised the battery life on those models. Consumers prefer better cameras on the bigger models when they're outside and travelling.

"Maybe it was too expensive!"

• There has always been a $100 gap between similar models since the iPhone 6/Plus was launched.

"The SE ate all the mini sales!"

• Apple confirmed during an earnings call the SE attracted a lot of first-time users, notably Android switchers. These are not small form factor seekers.

"Adding a third camera to the mini will improve sales!"

• Ignoring the engineering challenge of adding a lens to a tiny chassis, no leadership team would agree to increase the price of an already poor selling product.

 

[Alpha Centauri]

I never understood the "overpriced" argument. Apple has always maintained a $100 price gap between the 4.7" and 5.5" models from iPhone 6 to iPhone 8. There is a $100 difference between the 5.8" and 6.5" models. Nobody complained about the 4.7" or 5.8" models being overpriced.

Now, that same $100 difference between the 12 and 12 mini is suddenly considered overpriced.

Is there any actual logic behind that claim?

Well, we never had a Mini before. Irrespective, looking at my first response in this thread, I mention price but the main points for low sales mentioned had everything to do with availability and release of the SE, 12 and 12Mini.

But yes, price was mentioned so I'll explain what I meant. Looking at the timelines of releases (excluding the X, to some extent XR) there was never a $100 price increase for the next generation as seen from 11 to 12. The fixed price difference of $100 you mention will off course start making the cheaper Model dearer as the more expensive Model increases in price over the years. The logic was, that it's just not relativ.

The other scary thing is the pricing here in Europe. Off course just doing an unscientific currency conversion, not factoring cost of living or wages, imagine paying for the base models:

iPhone 12: $1061
iPhone 12 Mini: $943

 

[snakes-]

I'm curious what specs the iPhone SE 3 in 2022 will have.
U1 Chip?
A13 A14 or A15 Bionic
For me hard to wait but i dont want spend 700 for a phone.

 

[boak]

I'm curious what specs the iPhone SE 3 in 2022 will have.
U1 Chip?
A13 A14 or A15 Bionic
For me hard to wait but i dont want spend 700 for a phone.

A15. Apple always uses the latest chip for the SE.

I'm guessing 3 GB RAM still.

 

[satchmo]

I'd rather the Mini go the opposite route and Apple make it more of a flagship phone. We have enough small cheap phones out there.

Tons of Androids...but we’re talking iPhones here. Other than the SE2, there are no small cheap iPhones (unless you want to count relics like 7 & 8)

And certainly none that are ‘all-screen’ like the 12 mini.

Perhaps that happens if the mini gets axed and the SE2 goes all-screen...but that’s a few years away.

 

[ian87w]

Tons of Androids...but we’re talking iPhones here. Other than the SE2, there are no small cheap iPhones (unless you want to count relics like 7 & 8)

And certainly none that are ‘all-screen’ like the 12 mini.

Perhaps that happens if the mini gets axed and the SE2 goes all-screen...but that’s a few years away.

Tons of Android... small phones? Like, where? The most popular cheap Redmi phones and Samsung Galaxy A51 have 6.5" screens.

I'd imagine a future SE taking the body of the mini, but uses LCD of the current SE, thus giving a phone with a slightly larger screen but at a smaller form factor. Same single camera lens, power button Touch ID, seems feasible.

 

[fischersd]

I'm not sure about this reasoning. If the mini was overpriced, how do you explain people willing to actually spend more money for the regular 12 and 12 Pro Max? Makes no sense.

Besides, I thought people has been saying they wanted a flagship mini phone no matter the price was. Apple delivered. Yet now you are saying it's overpriced? Do you really want a flagship mini, or just a cheap iPhone?

They still didn't have feature parity. Apple puts the best cameras on their largest phones. We want feature parity - the only delta being the size of the screen. Same quality everything else (so the delta in price is going to be marginal - size difference in screen, casing and battery)

 

[ian87w]

They still didn't have feature parity. Apple puts the best cameras on their largest phones. We want feature parity - the only delta being the size of the screen. Same quality everything else (so the delta in price is going to be marginal - size difference in screen, casing and battery)

Wait. One complains about the mini overpriced, yet you want it to have Pro features as well? Even now the mini has such small battery, and you want to reduce that further to put in extra cameras? (Seriously, the only difference between the mini and the Pros are just the telephoto camera and lidar).

Ah well, good luck with that dream.

 

[fischersd]

Wait. One complains about the mini overpriced, yet you want it to have Pro features as well? Even now the mini has such small battery, and you want to reduce that further to put in extra cameras? (Seriously, the only difference between the mini and the Pros are just the telephoto camera and lidar).

Ah well, good luck with that dream.

You just can't follow along can you? There were two arguments there. A fully featured mini and a cheaper phone for emerging markets (the 5c example). Two different things.

 

[kevink2]

Hear, hear!

If there had been a mini with the pro features, I would have gone that route. For when I want bigger I have my iPad. If I hadn't gone Pro, I would have gone Mini vs the plain 12.

 

[Falhófnir]

I think they will only keep the old regular version. The mini sales would split too much. It's already very small as it is.

If sales are as low as it's being said, I don't think they will be at all worried about the 12 mini cannibalising the 13 mini. At that point a mini sale is a mini sale, it's helping to shift stock, and it allows them to gauge if there is a market for a smaller phone at a lower price point.

 

[JPack]

Wait. One complains about the mini overpriced, yet you want it to have Pro features as well? Even now the mini has such small battery, and you want to reduce that further to put in extra cameras? (Seriously, the only difference between the mini and the Pros are just the telephoto camera and lidar).

Ah well, good luck with that dream.

These guys are basically proposing an engineering impossibility. "We want a mini with big cameras and a big battery."

None of the emerging markets want a small device either. The consumers in India, Malaysia, etc. all want a large display as their primary computing device. That's why Redmi is so successful in those markets.

It baffles me they don't even understand the fundamental driving forces in the market.

 

[snipr125]

These guys are basically proposing an engineering impossibility. "We want a mini with big cameras and a big battery."

None of the emerging markets want a small device either. The consumers in India, Malaysia, etc. all want a large display as their primary computing device. That's why Redmi is so successful in those markets.

It baffles me they don't even understand the fundamental driving forces in the market.

Jpack, we fully understand the driving forces in the market, and that the mainstream public want larger screens, there is no doubting that.

However we are not concerned about the mainstream, we very much prefer smaller iphones that offer one handed use and are lightweight so that they don't weight down pockets. Its not baffling, and very simple. If we can get a small phone with premium features that is a bonus and we have that with the 12 mini, and will also be getting a 13 mini thankfully. Me personally i will just adapt to what comes after.

What baffles me is why you are so against people having choice? Sure the mini has not sold well, but it has sold in the millions so there is a niche market there. Maybe you think that Apple spending R and D into the Mini is wasted, which should have been put into R and D for the larger phones, but dont worry this is Apple, a 2 trillion $ company, that literally have all the resources in the world, so nothing has been wasted here.

 

[JPack]

Jpack, we fully understand the driving forces in the market, and that the mainstream public want larger screens, there is no doubting that.

However we are not concerned about the mainstream, we very much prefer smaller iphones that offer one handed use and are lightweight so that they don't weight down pockets. Its not baffling, and very simple. If we can get a small phone with premium features that is a bonus and we have that with the 12 mini, and will also be getting a 13 mini thankfully. Me personally i will just adapt to what comes after.

What baffles me is why you are so against people having choice? Sure the mini has not sold well, but it has sold in the millions so there is a niche market there. Maybe you think that Apple spending R and D into the Mini is wasted, which should have been put into R and D for the larger phones, but dont worry this is Apple, a 2 trillion $ company, that literally have all the resources in the world, so nothing has been wasted here.

You seem to believe that when I state objective facts, I'm against "people having choice." I'm looking at it from a business perspective. The simple matter is, the sales numbers for the mini are quite poor even as a niche product. Apple has decided against continuing to sell the mini after 2021.

Instead of trying to understand Apple's decision and why, some people think they know the market better. It's as if they really believe they know more than the $2T company that revolutionized the smartphone.

Apple targets mainstream customers. They don't make a rugged smartphone, a foldable smartphone, or a gold plated one. The iPhone 12 mini is about as mainstream as it gets with the low $699 price tag. If it doesn't sell at $699, it's not going to sell any better at $799 with more cameras, nor would it have space for a decent battery. It wasn't the pandemic (which drove consumers to less expensive devices) nor was it the SE (nobody cross-shops between a $399 and $699 device).

There are some classic signs of what's happening here.

1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Bargaining (Lower the price? Add more premium features? Make 5.4" for emerging markets? etc.)
4. Depression
5. Acceptance

 

[skaertus]

I'm curious what specs the iPhone SE 3 in 2022 will have.
U1 Chip?
A13 A14 or A15 Bionic
For me hard to wait but i dont want spend 700 for a phone.

Tons of Android... small phones? Like, where? The most popular cheap Redmi phones and Samsung Galaxy A51 have 6.5" screens.

I'd imagine a future SE taking the body of the mini, but uses LCD of the current SE, thus giving a phone with a slightly larger screen but at a smaller form factor. Same single camera lens, power button Touch ID, seems feasible.

I do not think Apple will release an iPhone SE in 2022. The way I see it, the iPhone SE is a model that Apple launched to use the parts of older iPhone models, instead of simply wasting them and/or manufacturing capability.

The original iPhone SE was released on March 31, 2016, and uses the same form factor as the iPhone 5/5s. Curiously, the iPhone 5s was discontinued on March 21, 2016, just ten days before. It was clear to me that Apple made the iPhone SE to use leftovers of the iPhone 5s.

The second iPhone SE was released on April 24, 2020, and uses the same form factor as the iPhone 6/6s/7/8. And the iPhone 8 was discontinued on April 15, 2020, just nine days earlier. Once again, the purpose of the iPhone SE 2 was to allocate the leftovers of the iPhone 8.

It is a clever strategy. Tim Cook does not really care about the products and if there is a 4-year gap between the release of two iPhone SE models. But he is very interested in streamlining the production line and not wasting a single part. Efficiency above all.

That said, I am not sure there will be an iPhone SE 3. It seems to me that the two iPhone SE models were born out of the necessity of Apple of dealing with parts of discontinued products. The future iPhone SE 3, if any, may launch sometime in 2024 or so, and resemble an iPhone 12, which will have been discontinued by then (and replaced by an iPhone with - and this is very important - a different form factor).

 

[snipr125]

I do not think Apple will release an iPhone SE in 2022. The way I see it, the iPhone SE is a model that Apple launched to use the parts of older iPhone models, instead of simply wasting them and/or manufacturing capability.

The original iPhone SE was released on March 31, 2016, and uses the same form factor as the iPhone 5/5s. Curiously, the iPhone 5s was discontinued on March 21, 2016, just ten days before. It was clear to me that Apple made the iPhone SE to use leftovers of the iPhone 5s.

The second iPhone SE was released on April 24, 2020, and uses the same form factor as the iPhone 6/6s/7/8. And the iPhone 8 was discontinued on April 15, 2020, just nine days earlier. Once again, the purpose of the iPhone SE 2 was to allocate the leftovers of the iPhone 8.

It is a clever strategy. Tim Cook does not really care about the products and if there is a 4-year gap between the release of two iPhone SE models. But he is very interested in streamlining the production line and not wasting a single part. Efficiency above all.

That said, I am not sure there will be an iPhone SE 3. It seems to me that the two iPhone SE models were born out of the necessity of Apple of dealing with parts of discontinued products. The future iPhone SE 3, if any, may launch sometime in 2024 or so, and resemble an iPhone 12, which will have been discontinued by then (and replaced by an iPhone with - and this is very important - a different form factor).

You are spot on regarding the SE and SE2, they were the repurposing of the most refined previous gen iphone (5S and 8), with updated internals to match the current gen iphones (A9 with 2GB RAM and A13 with 3GB), for just £/$ 399.

With the rumoured SE3 to follow the same path, the next model for repurposing would technically be the X and XS design, but that has stainless steel frame, OLED screen etc so highly doubt that model will be used due to the high cost of components to reach that 399 price point, so the next in line will be the XR/11 design. 11 design with updated internals (A15/A16 maybe) can achieve that 399 point due to the LCD screen, aluminium frame etc. Apple could throw a curve ball and use the 8 Plus chassis for the SE3 though, i know a lot of people would like that.

Any possible 12 Mini based SE phone though will take a while to arrive in my opinion, i cant see apple changing its components from OLED to LCD etc as this requires re-tooling and by this point in time, the 12 Minis premium features would be standard fare and thus can reach the SE pricing point. But nothing is set in stone, look at the Apple Watch SE as an example, that uses a new design, but with previous gen chip, so the other way round.

Edit - I forgot to mention that Ming Kuo has rumoured that the SE2 will be getting a refresh to 5G, i think in 2022, so this increases the time lines even further if it happens.

 

[skaertus]

You are spot on regarding the SE and SE2, they were the repurposing of the most refined previous gen iphone (5S and 8), with updated internals to match the current gen iphones (A9 with 2GB RAM and A13 with 3GB), for just £/$ 399.

With the rumoured SE3 to follow the same path, the next model for repurposing would technically be the X and XS design, but that has stainless steel frame, OLED screen etc so highly doubt that model will be used due to the high cost of components to reach that 399 price point, so the next in line will be the XR/11 design. 11 design with updated internals (A15/A16 maybe) can achieve that 399 point due to the LCD screen, aluminium frame etc. Apple could throw a curve ball and use the 8 Plus chassis for the SE3 though, i know a lot of people would like that.

Any possible 12 Mini based SE phone though will take a while to arrive in my opinion, i cant see apple changing its components from OLED to LCD etc as this requires re-tooling and by this point in time, the 12 Minis premium features would be standard fare and thus can reach the SE pricing point. But nothing is set in stone, look at the Apple Watch SE as an example, that uses a new design, but with previous gen chip, so the other way round.

Edit - I forgot to mention that Ming Kuo has rumoured that the SE2 will be getting a refresh to 5G, i think in 2022, so this increases the time lines even further if it happens.

I do not think the X/XS will be used as the chassis for an SE 3. The iPhone XS was discontinued in September 2019, almost two years ago, so I suppose that Apple has already found a use for the leftovers, if any.

The iPhone XR/11 design could be used for a new iPhone SE 3. However, apart from the screen, the iPhone 12 shares many parts with the iPhone XR/11, and the aluminum frame seems to be very similar, so perhaps they are not something that Apple needs to get rid of.

I wonder what will come out next. I do not think the iPhone SE was supposed to be part of the iPhone line at all, which is the reason why it is called "Special Edition". However, if Apple is going to discontinue the SE, I think it should at least offer something at this price point, as pressure from cheap Android phones is increasing.

 

[bluespark]

That's intentional. Apple is the king of upselling, upsize your happy meal. Apple wants to nudge people to spend more money than they thought they would, not less. So if more people buy iPhone 12 Pro than the 128Gb iPhone 12, that's great for Apple. Higher ASP is the goal. It's also the whole point of the mini. Apple knows people prefer larger screen, and so they make a mini, thus keeping the marketing of iPhone starts at $699, but people will end up buying the regular 12 for $100 more without realizing that Apple basically has increased iPhone prices yet again.

They really are. I know they are doing this, and they still manage to upsell me most of the time.

 

[Falhófnir]

I do not think the X/XS will be used as the chassis for an SE 3. The iPhone XS was discontinued in September 2019, almost two years ago, so I suppose that Apple has already found a use for the leftovers, if any.

The iPhone XR/11 design could be used for a new iPhone SE 3. However, apart from the screen, the iPhone 12 shares many parts with the iPhone XR/11, and the aluminum frame seems to be very similar, so perhaps they are not something that Apple needs to get rid of.

I wonder what will come out next. I do not think the iPhone SE was supposed to be part of the iPhone line at all, which is the reason why it is called "Special Edition". However, if Apple is going to discontinue the SE, I think it should at least offer something at this price point, as pressure from cheap Android phones is increasing.

The next SE is supposed to be another iPhone 8 derivative, just with 5G this time (probably the A14 but the A15 is also possible, as it is launching in the first half of next year). Per Ming Chi Kuo:

Kuo: 2022 iPhone SE Will Be the 'Cheapest 5G iPhone Ever'

Apple is planning to launch an updated version in the first half of 2022, Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said today in a note to investors. As he has...

www.macrumors.com

There were also rumours of an SE plus, about which the only details seem to be it will be 5.5" (so iPhone 8 plus based) or 6.1" (so iPhone XR/11 based) - I assume at this point it was an early experimentation that they've decided not to bring to market as the launch timeframe in the first half of this year has come and gone.

 

[skaertus]

The next SE is supposed to be another iPhone 8 derivative, just with 5G this time (probably the A14 but the A15 is also possible, as it is launching in the first half of next year). Per Ming Chi Kuo:

Kuo: 2022 iPhone SE Will Be the 'Cheapest 5G iPhone Ever'

Apple is planning to launch an updated version in the first half of 2022, Apple analyst Ming-Chi Kuo said today in a note to investors. As he has...

www.macrumors.com

There were also rumours of an SE plus, about which the only details seem to be it will be 5.5" (so iPhone 8 plus based) or 6.1" (so iPhone XR/11 based) - I assume at this point it was an early experimentation that they've decided not to bring to market as the launch timeframe in the first half of this year has come and gone.

Wow, an iPhone SE Plus? The iPhone line-up really seems to be multiplying over the years.

 

[snakes-]

News about the small mid tier iPhone SE 3

'iPhone SE 3' With A14 Bionic Chip and 5G Expected in First Half of 2022

Apple plans to update the iPhone SE, its 4.7-inch entry-level iPhone, with an updated A14 Bionic processor from the iPhone 12 series in the first...

www.macrumors.com

 

[snipr125]

News about the small mid tier iPhone SE 3

'iPhone SE 3' With A14 Bionic Chip and 5G Expected in First Half of 2022

Apple plans to update the iPhone SE, its 4.7-inch entry-level iPhone, with an updated A14 Bionic processor from the iPhone 12 series in the first...

www.macrumors.com

Yep, just increase the battery size and this will do for me. Will use this in conjunction with my 12/13 minis 🤓