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SDColorado

macrumors 601
Nov 6, 2011
4,360
4,324
Highlands Ranch, CO
Any reputable website must carefully distinguish rumors from facts, even if it specializes in the former.


You make a point. I at least wish the source would be credited with the authors name and the disclaimer that is from non-identified/nonconfirmed sources, rather than constantly quoted as though it is somehow fact or from an official source when the fact is unknown and the source is anything but official.

John Cristie made some good points in regards to anonymous sources in his article "Anonymous sources: leaving journalism's false god behind," stating:

"That’s one problem with anonymous sources: They often get it wrong because why make sure you have it right when you will not be held accountable for what you say.

And even if it is accurate, readers cannot judge the value of the material for themselves if they don’t know the source. Many sources hide behind anonymity to take cheap shots without anyone knowing they have an axe to grind or a dog in the fight.

And even more importantly, the frequent and often unnecessary use of anonymous sources reinforces the mistrust readers already have for journalists.

We ask to be trusted – and then over and over again give readers reasons to do the opposite."

Holwerda citing ""tidbits and nuggets I've picked up regarding the new Mac Pro from people and sources who know their stuff." doesn't cut it.
 
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thesaint024

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2016
1,073
888
suspension waiting room
You, and people who think like you, who should have bought a rMB instead of a rMBP because they do not need performances and value portability more, are the root cause that lead Apple to believe that they had to do both their laptop lines thinner and thinner instead of differenciate them: one thin and portable the other one thicker and with top of the line GPU and CPU...

So they alienated a big chunk of potential professional customers who looked elsewere...

Haha. Thanks for telling me which computer I need. And yes, it is all my fault Apple is making the decisions they are. Problem is, there are still overwhelming many more of me than you. Like I always said, no one cares if they add a "really pro" or pro +. I don't care what's in their lineup as long as something suits me. The market and available technology is what made Apple go the direction they chose. Always comes down to simple math.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
You, and people who think like you, who should have bought a rMB instead of a rMBP because they do not need performances and value portability more, are the root cause that lead Apple to believe that they had to do both their laptop lines thinner and thinner instead of differenciate them: one thin and portable the other one thicker and with top of the line GPU and CPU...

So they alienated a big chunk of potential professional customers who looked elsewere...

Arguably this is one of the major issues and the result of many professional users ceasing to view Apple as serious provider. The competition is simply offering ever better more versatile solutions, while Apple seems solely focused on producing ever thinner systems with direct degradation in usability, including desktops :rolleyes:

Why Apple simply could not have offered a MacBook Line and a MacBook Pro line that served the consumer and the Pro space is beyond me o_O Everything is just becoming pointlessly thin and overly compromised as a result. Going "thinner" was great when notebooks were heavy & bulky right now for a professional grade notebook simply an exercise in diminishing returns. Problem is Apple wants to be seen as a provider of Professional hardware for the kudos & Halo effect, yet as the Mac Pro so clearly illustrates Apple is incapable of delivering or is deliberately "yanking everyones chain".

We want longest battery runtimes, we want relevant ports not dongles, we want powerful CPU"s & dGPU"s, great displays, keyboards you can live on. We don't want gimmicks, we don't want spin, we most definitely don't want to hear Tim Cook procrastinating about his "pipeline" for one more second :mad:

Q-6
 

Chancha

macrumors 68020
Mar 19, 2014
2,244
2,041
I don't think I follow what you're trying to say.... It's failure-free for the large majority.
We both don't have the numbers to justifiably talk about the actual failure rate, so I can only base my judgement on reports and 2nd hand stories. The point I was trying to make was for Apple to ship a newly design keyboard, it really should be a bit more trouble free than the rate that I have seen as it is such a crucial part of a professional machine.

.... the choice of dGPU isn't constrained primarily or even in large part by thinness.... That's not consistent with the general design goals of the MBP.
This is the circular logic that both sides of argument always fall into. The "general design goals of" my MBP is different than yours. But as explained in my previous reply, even if that goal was not to make the most graphically powerful laptop on earth, but at least it has to be reasonably sufficient to handle specific professional tasks, which with the longer MBP update cycle this is increasingly harder to achieve. It essentially alienates the MBP from being even a choice for the upper segments which I'd argue Apple used to at least cater to.

The same is true in regard to RAM and thinness. There's already room for DDR4 RAM. But as Apple has explained, that would cost battery life because it's desktop RAM, not low-powered RAM designed for laptops..... Considering the largest permitted battery is under 100 watt-hours, that's a lot of battery drain. It's not about thinness.
And you are aware that they shipped much less than 100wh on the current 15", where the previous one had like 99.5wh? I do not know if this is the result of the Bloomberg terraced battery saga, but regardless, the ultimate reason for the chassis change was very likely to trim down thinness in the first place which later created the battery situation. And I have to stress, portability is of course an important value in a laptop, but if it comes at the expense of other factors then many will consider it an unnecessary compromise.

Yes, many do wish for a thicker machine, but apart from those upset about key travel, they're misinformed. And most of them maintain that state by ignoring all facts that don't fit the myth about thinness being to blame for all or most ills. And yes, they do lash out at the existing machine that isn't as they wish it to be.

That said, I'd love to see a return of the 17", I still have two that are running and waited till now to upgrade waiting for another. But they apparently weren't popular enough to be sustainable as an option. Maybe with better screen technology that can change, but I'm doubtful.
I don't think the nay sayers are as misinformed as you think, but even if they were, the point of the matter is that the MBP2016 is by design positioned to only serve a certain range of professionals, and these folks can only look at the tasks that are thrown at them to make a subjective claim of whether or not the MBP is sufficient. Whether or not "thinness" is the straw-man it does not matter, we are just desperately trying to make sense as to why Apple has to under-deliver.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
You do realize that, even if the chart is true, it has nothing to do with quality and everything with an emotional response? Just like EA was voted the worst company in the world, worse the oil spillers and weapon sellers, because of ME3 ending?

I mean, you don't honestly believe people are more satisfied with their Lenovos, right? Right?

Sheesh. Enjoy your Dells and Lenovos in the REAL WORLD (Jesus....), what can I say.

Ok I will expand, what I am seeing is longterm professional Apple users seriously questioning Apple or moving away. It's a personal observation with openly small numbers.

Once Apple's competition was literally hopeless, however that has changed as has the demographic. You talk about Lenovo's & Dells (I own or use neither) like they are just junk, yet every major engineering, research and production facility I visit has literally hundreds if not thousands system from the same and HP; notebooks to high end workstations, Apple's footprint is effectively zero.

Emotive yes absolutely correct; it's not anger, it's not some fake attempt to shill Apple, it's genuine disappointment, When Steve Jobs revealed the first MBP in 2006 it was literally amazing we were all blown away. 2016 seriously that's the best you can do...

I am happy that your MBP works for you professionally, equally try to understand that it equally works against many others and we too need to upgrade and continue to be productive, we too need that edge...

I want the Mac to grow, I want the Mac to succeed, however it seems for many of us Apple has the Mac in full reverse. People talk of the "vocal minority" the reason is simple people are passionate, they don't want to leave, equally from a professional standpoint how much longer can they remain when their needs fall on deaf ears...

I amongst many are hoping for the change...

Q-6
[doublepost=1491857992][/doublepost]
Anyone who cares more about fact than hurt feelings easily sees that's obviously false.

It's not, equally why do you need to constantly put a derogatory spin on any post that does nor align with your own opinion or Apple's? Personally I can stand by my opinion, if you read deeper you would understand why...

Q-6
 
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Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
We both don't have the numbers to justifiably talk about the actual failure rate, so I can only base my judgement on reports and 2nd hand stories. The point I was trying to make was for Apple to ship a newly design keyboard, it really should be a bit more trouble free than the rate that I have seen as it is such a crucial part of a professional machine.

We have plenty of basis for what I said about a large majority liking the new keyboard, and that failures are a small fraction of the reasons for complaints. That can be seen in the polling and threads about the keyboard and its problems. What basis do you have for thinking failures are above an average or acceptable rate?

This is the circular logic that both sides of argument always fall into. The "general design goals of" my MBP is different than yours. But as explained in my previous reply, even if that goal was not to make the most graphically powerful laptop on earth, but at least it has to be reasonably sufficient to handle specific professional tasks, which with the longer MBP update cycle this is increasingly harder to achieve. It essentially alienates the MBP from being even a choice for the upper segments which I'd argue Apple used to at least cater to.
Nothing circular in what I said, which is about Apple's design goals, not mine. This can be determined from Apple's own comments, as well as their actions.

The update cycle isn't as long as you may think. There has been a new MBP every year since it began. That's comparable to the competition, and better than the Dell XPS, the most direct competition, which skipped 2016.

And you are aware that they shipped much less than 100wh on the current 15", where the previous one had like 99.5wh? I do not know if this is the result of the Bloomberg terraced battery saga, but regardless, the ultimate reason for the chassis change was very likely to trim down thinness in the first place which later created the battery situation. And I have to stress, portability is of course an important value in a laptop, but if it comes at the expense of other factors then many will consider it an unnecessary compromise.
I'm aware that the new 15" has a smaller battery but already has space for a larger one. It doesn't need to be thicker for that. And it already gets better battery life than the 2015 for light and moderate use, which is what people usually depend on the battery for.

I don't think the nay sayers are as misinformed as you think, but even if they were, the point of the matter is that the MBP2016 is by design positioned to only serve a certain range of professionals, and these folks can only look at the tasks that are thrown at them to make a subjective claim of whether or not the MBP is sufficient.
Objectively, the new MBP is significantly more powerful than the previous version in regard to graphics-intensive work, has better battery life, has a better screen, a faster SSD, runs cooler and more quietly, has Touch ID, and has more powerful, flexible ports and twice the external monitor support. And it's more portable. There's nothing it can't do, with some adapters, that previous models could, but the reverse isn't true--the earlier models can't do all the new model can no matter what you attach to them. Objectively, then, it's more pro in many important respects. The ways in which some few complain it isn't as pro as before are rather few and small by comparison.
[doublepost=1491858911][/doublepost]
I amongst many are hoping for the change...
I gather you've gotten over your complaining about me using the word "many" that way. We'll see if @SteveJUAE complains about it now!

Your preferences are in the minority, judging from comments and polling here and elsewhere. You need to adjust to that and stop acting as though Apple should cater to you instead of the majority of its customer base.
It's not, equally why do you need to constantly put a derogatory spin on any post that does nor align with your own opinion or Apple's? Personally I can stand by my opinion, if you read deeper you would understand why...
I understand why, thus my remarks about your hurt feelings, which you just expressed again. I have nothing against your subjective preferences. The facts don't align with the factual claims you make as a result of those feelings, though.
 

SteveJUAE

macrumors 601
Aug 14, 2015
4,506
4,742
Land of Smiles
I gather you've gotten over your complaining about me using the word "many" that way. We'll see if @SteveJUAE complains about it now!.

You have used it too many times (D'oh) and I have moaned about it too many times (D'oh) now :D

There's probably many more (D'oh) that like the tbMBP over the many (D'oh) who dislike it out of MacOS users LOL

doh.gif
 
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ugru

macrumors 6502a
Sep 8, 2002
518
555
Caput Mundi
Haha. Thanks for telling me which computer I need.

You said which computer you need...

We are not "power users" that run into cpu bottlenecks. Contrary to your belief, we would actually welcome EVEN smaller and lighter than the current 3lbs but still need on demand power for occasional calculations, etc.

I clearly understand that people like you could need or want extreme portability, that is why rMB is perfect for you and your "we".
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
Why Apple simply could not have offered a MacBook Line and a MacBook Pro line that served the consumer and the Pro space is beyond me
Hubris, I think they assumed that once you put an apple logo on it, people would be camping out at the apple store for it.

we want relevant ports not dongles, we want powerful CPU"s & dGPU"s, great displays, keyboards you can live on. We don't want gimmicks,
That's me right now. I can compromise on some of the features, but as a whole, I'm having a hard time, especially when I see threads about the keyboard making marks on the display, keys not working intermittently, keys popping off. The replacement of the keyboard being worse then before. Then there's the touchbar which imo is a gimmick and it seems from what I've read many people outside of the RDF have similar sentiments. It may be useful, but it seems kind of a kludgy answer to Apple's competitors introducing a touchscreen enabled display.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
Hubris, I think they assumed that once you put an apple logo on it, people would be camping out at the apple store for it.

That's me right now. I can compromise on some of the features, but as a whole, I'm having a hard time, especially when I see threads about the keyboard making marks on the display, keys not working intermittently, keys popping off. The replacement of the keyboard being worse then before. Then there's the touchbar which imo is a gimmick and it seems from what I've read many people outside of the RDF have similar sentiments. It may be useful, but it seems kind of a kludgy answer to Apple's competitors introducing a touchscreen enabled display.

FWIW my own close to 2 year old rMB display is now marked by the keyboard, I rather expect more from a "premium" device. 2016 MBP is a more consumer based product, yet priced far too high for the mass market. For me too many compromises that work against my professional needs, so no sale...

Q-6
 

Sanpete

macrumors 68040
Nov 17, 2016
3,695
1,665
Utah
The disgruntled minority continue to confuse their minority preferences with those of the majority, and to think Apple should cater to them. Who's really suffering from hubris?
 

thesaint024

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2016
1,073
888
suspension waiting room
You said which computer you need...
This is getting juvenile. Do I really need to re-quote you to prove you said something?
You, and people who think like you, who should have bought a rMB instead of a rMBP...
Back to topic, I bought a 2016 MBP because I really wanted an updated MBA. MBA is dead for all intents and purposes, so the choice was to drop "down" to the rMB or "up" to the 13" MBP as a replacement. The MBA would have met my needs for the most part, but they made the MBP so close to the MBA in form, I couldn't pass it up. It is closer in specs to an MBA than the rMB is. Happy? I actually justified my purchase to you for some reason. Apple invented the ultra portable and continues to push the whole industry that way, and surprise, their laptops keep gaining marketshare.

Apple killed the "Pro" 17" because it simply wasn't profitable (not enough sales and low margin). You want Apple to make a "nerd Pro" version nevertheless. That isn't even a possibility unless the prosumer version makes enough money to subsidize that unprofitable line which you and 50 of your closest friends will actually buy. You all should be thrilled Apple makes an MBP that is what MOST people want in a laptop. That will allow them to continue to take risks. I get that you all want these sales to tank so that Apple will "follow your instructions". It's counterproductive to hope they make a less profitable machine INSTEAD of the current one, as opposed to in ADDITION TO. Stop saying stupid s**t like this machine universally sucks or it's an abject failure. It's simply not true by all objective measures, and more importantly for you, it's not in your best interest in your goal to get a "Pro +" model out there. Current iteration may not be for you, doesn't mean it's a failure. I don't go around saying that the 2015 model or any unnamed PC sucks. They just aren't for me.
 
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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
. For me too many compromises that work against my professional needs, so no sale...
That's the thing, why compromise if you don't have too. Hopefully in the fall we'll see some improvements to the MBP, though I'm not sure if it will be too late for me. At some point I'll pull the trigger on a 15" laptop
 

ugru

macrumors 6502a
Sep 8, 2002
518
555
Caput Mundi
This is getting juvenile. Do I really need to re-quote you to prove you said something?.

You accused me of twisting your words or worst. I proved you wrong, there is nothing juvenile in it, it is intellectual honesty....

Back to topic, I bought a 2016 MBP because I really wanted an updated MBA. MBA is dead for all intents and purposes, so the choice was to drop "down" to the rMB or "up" to the 13" MBP as a replacement. The MBA would have met my needs for the most part, but they made the MBP so close to the MBA in form, I couldn't pass it up. It is closer in specs to an MBA than the rMB is. Happy? I actually justified my purchase to you for some reason. Apple invented the ultra portable and continues to push the whole industry that way, and surprise, their laptops keep gaining marketshare.

You do not need to justify anything it's your money.

But you proved entirely my point, you bought a rMBP to use it as you used a MBA. The fact that people are undecided whether to buy a rMBP or a rMB is the entire center of the problem: no difference in the laptop lines, both thin both underpowered. It is ok for the rMB it is a dumb decision for the rMBP.
 
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thesaint024

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2016
1,073
888
suspension waiting room
You accused me of twisting your words or worst. I proved you wrong, there is nothing juvenile in it, it is intellectual honesty....

You do not need to justify anything it's your money.

But you proved entirely my point, you bought a rMBP to use it as you used a MBA. The fact that people are undecided whether to buy a rMBP or a rMB is the entire center of the problem: no difference in the laptop lines, both thin both underpowered. It is ok for the rMB it is a dumb decision for the rMBP.
One of us needs to improve reading comprehension. Not going to respond further to the first one.

To your second point, you are failing to see the other side of the coin (much bigger side). An rMB is not adequate for 13" MBA shoppers. The closer computer is actually the MBP, i5/7, bigger screen, ports. You seem to think there is "Super Pro" and everything else. The segmentation is actually lots of levels of less than Super Pro. MOST do not need a Super Pro and this is by far the larger segment. Apple may have catered MORE to regular users. rMB is a different animal from a 13" MBP. The bulk of the sales will go to MBP, not to rMB or SuperPro. The MBP package meets most people's needs, and the rMB and the Nerd Pro are more the outliers. If they did what you are suggesting by making the two outliers instead, the won't sell many MB's.

Apple: PLEASE make a Pro + so these conversations will stop.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,682
43,740
We have lenovo laptops at work, they are powerfull and sturdy like a tank, build to last. They aren't pretty, but they are what they were designed to be, work horses.
I've only heard good things about thinkpads, really good computer and you can understand why Lenovo is rated that high in that chart.
 
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alFR

macrumors 68030
Aug 10, 2006
2,834
1,070
To see where the puck is going (to coin a phrase), you only have to look at what Apple themselves said about their user base in their recent roundtable about the Mac Pro:
  • 15% of all users use pro apps frequently, 15% occasionally: this 30% is what they define as "pro users".
  • They sell 80% notebooks, 20% desktops.
  • Most "pro users" use notebooks.
So, 70% of their users are non-pros (by the above definition) and of the "pros" only half of them, at best, are what I suspect most people on this thread are defining as "pros" (i.e. using pro apps daily) and, of those, only a proportion will be doing the real high-end stuff that requires a big honking desktop-class RAM / GPU / CPU notebook. This is supported by the fact that most "pro users" are using notebooks, even though there isn't a big desktop-replacement in the lineup (and hasn't been for years, actually). Looking at that data it appears the vast majority of their users should be well-served by the current lineup.

re: the general design direction for the MBP:
  • People keep saying they need a bigger battery, but I genuinely don't understand who regularly does high-end video editing (for example) or works for more than 6-8 hours continuously somewhere that they don't have access to AC power. I can see situations on flights/in airports where it might become an issue occasionally, or perhaps out on location for video/photo shoots (again occasionally), but apart from that? Power sockets are everywhere and most people work indoors, usually in an office, usually at a desk with a power socket a couple of feet away. It's 2017, not 1917.
  • Removal of the legacy ports will soon go the way of removal of floppy drives, CD drives, serial ports etc. i.e. into the big pile of stuff no-one gives a crap about.
 
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Queen6

macrumors G4
I've only heard good things about thinkpads, really good computer and you can understand why Lenovo is rated that high in that chart.

ThinkPads are excellent notebooks, personally liking the X1 Carbon, I recently looked at the 12" X260 was very surprised at the lack mass for the build quality which is excellent. Considering A X260/X270 in the near future, as my secondary portable.

Q-6
 
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fokmik

Suspended
Oct 28, 2016
4,909
4,688
USA
I think the "hate" for this new mbp would have been a lot different if they didnt had at the beginning the battery problems, the QA scratch below the speakers, the gpu glitches, the blown speakers after installing speakers.
I think the 2017 will adress these things to make a polished and how it should been from the start:
-better battery with 9-10 hours light usage putting bigger battery and better kaby lake cpu that its more efficient ( they intended left some empty spaces inside,like they did with the first 12" macbook) so to have some battery improvements for the next gen
-better implementation for the touchbar, they also did this in the past with the 3d touch in ios9 that was very limited and almost nobody used it, now in ios10 is more useful. I think touchbar is the way to interact with the app in full screen mode when you are using the mac without external monitor
-price cut by 100-200$
 

thesaint024

macrumors 65816
Nov 14, 2016
1,073
888
suspension waiting room
I think the "hate" for this new mbp would have been a lot different if they didnt had at the beginning the battery problems, the QA scratch below the speakers, the gpu glitches, the blown speakers after installing speakers.
I think the 2017 will adress these things to make a polished and how it should been from the start:
-better battery with 9-10 hours light usage putting bigger battery and better kaby lake cpu that its more efficient ( they intended left some empty spaces inside,like they did with the first 12" macbook) so to have some battery improvements for the next gen
-better implementation for the touchbar, they also did this in the past with the 3d touch in ios9 that was very limited and almost nobody used it, now in ios10 is more useful. I think touchbar is the way to interact with the app in full screen mode when you are using the mac without external monitor
-price cut by 100-200$
I wish this were the actual list of grievances, anything to stop the incessant complaining. Unfortunately, the "Pros" seem to want different things based on too much time I've spent on MR. These defects and design choices are just more ammo for dumping on the MBP and Apple's "direction" more than commentary on what they really want from what I read. Most of the complainers don't actually own one, so there are no real world complaints about battery. Touchbar just seems so un-Pro whether or not function keys are actually used. Everyone would welcome a price cut that is probably likely as that is standard Apple playbook. But the "Pros" are complaining about specs and ports mostly (and thinness for some reason, glowing logos, etc.). The SuperPro would be an upgraded cpu/gpu and the option to have more RAM in the old rMBP body. But then I imagine they would complain about lack of innovation.
 
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