Resolved CPU Upgrades - The PowerMac G4 Digital Audio (DA)

[ChrisCharman]

Has anyone considered comparing the cost of maintaining a PowerPC today rather than migrating to a M1 Mac? It has been over 15 years since the last one was released by Apple.

Perhaps its time to upgrade? A lot of the production bottlenecks that since became part of your workflow may have been R&D out of 2021 Macs.

Out of interest, i’m genuinely curious, what is it that drives and motivates a person to wander into a vintage computing thread and announce that new machines have been designed, built and released for many years? Surely you, and others that do the same thing, are not under the impression that the PowerPC community are unaware of the passage of time and the continued advances in consumer technology? I say this because, logically, it’s not possible to interpret a post such as that as showing goodwill unless the person making the post naïvely and legitimately feels that they’re somehow liberating the community from their metaphorical shackles. It’s akin to finding a classic car thread and telling their community that new cars have been released, and that they shouldn’t waste time or money maintaining the ones that they already have.

 

[eyoungren]

Out of interest, i’m genuinely curious, what is it that drives and motivates a person to wander into a vintage computing thread and announce that new machines have been designed, built and released for many years? Surely you, and others that do the same thing, are not under the impression that the PowerPC community are unaware of the passage of time and the continued advances in consumer technology? I say this because, logically, it’s not possible to interpret a post such as that as showing goodwill unless the person making the post naïvely and legitimately feels that they’re somehow liberating the community from their metaphorical shackles. It’s akin to finding a classic car thread and telling their community that new cars have been released, and they shouldn’t waste time or money maintaining the ones that they already have.

Usually it's because they are not aware of where the thread is coming from.

On the main page of the forum there's a tab called 'New Posts' and another one called 'New Threads'. 'New Posts' is also on the forum navigation bar at the top. Most people using those are just reading the post/thread titles and not looking at WHERE the thread/posts are. So they respond, not realizing where or what they've stepped into.

It's the main reason we have users we don't usually see walking in to the middle of the conversation.

 

[ChrisCharman]

Usually it's because they are not aware of where the thread is coming from.

On the main page of the forum there's a tab called 'New Posts' and another one called 'New Threads'. 'New Posts' is also on the forum navigation bar at the top. Most people using those are just reading the post/thread titles and not looking at WHERE the thread/posts are. So they respond, not realizing where or what they's stepped in to.

It's the main reason we have users we don't usually see walking in to the middle of the conversation.

Oh i see! Thanks for explaining that @eyoungren

Perhaps i still expect a bit too much from people - to review the context of a thread before posting.

It does amuse me, the occasional and random ‘Don’t worry guys you don’t have to use your old macs anymore!’ posts interjected between considered posts on the actual topics being discussed.

 

[eyoungren]

Oh i see! Thanks for explaining that @eyoungren

Perhaps i still expect a bit too much from people - to review the context of a thread before posting.

It does amuse me, the occasional and random ‘Don’t worry guys you don’t have to use your old macs anymore!’ posts interjected between considered posts on the actual topics being discussed.

LOL, yeah, with the old forum software the feature was called 'Forum Spy'. So, I sometimes refer to it as that.

What's funny is that we also have an Early Intel Mac section, which we finally got created earlier this year. So, I did not respond to that user, but I would have rebutted his argument by suggesting that this is what the Early Intel Mac section is for.

 

[Amethyst1]

Perhaps i still expect a bit too much from people - to review the context of a thread before posting.

Not at all. It's fine to expect that IMO. With that being said, let’s assume good faith.

 

[ervus]

On the main page of the forum there's a tab called 'New Posts'...

That makes sense. I almost never look at the main page or other sub-forums.

Anyway, back to CPUs: Giga Designs did make some nice upgrades and I'm curious about their relationship to other aftermarket offerings. Their later PCB designs look nearly identical to the FastMac and OWC versions that came out a little later, so I wonder if OWC bought them out? I have also seen OWC branded upgrades with gold heatsinks and PCBs that looked identical to the equivalent Sonnet upgrade. So there too, it seems that OWC was working with others somehow to bring upgrades to market.

 

[MicroTecture]

That makes sense. I almost never look at the main page or other sub-forums.

Anyway, back to CPUs: Giga Designs did make some nice upgrades and I'm curious about their relationship to other aftermarket offerings. Their later PCB designs look nearly identical to the FastMac and OWC versions that came out a little later, so I wonder if OWC bought them out? I have also seen OWC branded upgrades with gold heatsinks and PCBs that looked identical to the equivalent Sonnet upgrade. So there too, it seems that OWC was working with others somehow to bring upgrades to market.

I don't think I had much expectation for a 2GHZ dual CPU to appear to be honest. It doesn't hurt to question if there are any in circulation. It's already a challenge to find 7448 CPU chips of any kind running at any clock speed from what I was told. Of course a dual 2GHZ 7448 can be achieved and I bet even a dual 2.4GHZ 7448 can be achieved as well.

OWC is a pretty good company I think if you're looking for upgrades. I got their data doubler and it never gave me issues and I have an Early 2009 white MacBook (well it's in parts right now, I'm working on that machine as well) and it came with an OWC SSD in it.

I wonder if Sonnet, Giga Designs, and OWC have any old stock left of any kind. It's possible and I don't know what the likelihood would be for that either.

I'm sure many of you watch ActionRetro on YouTube and have seen his PowerMac G4 MDD run a dual 2GHZ G4 (7448). I revisited his Cube video where he was running a single 2GHZ 7448 G4 paired up with an Nvidia GPU of sorts (I can't remember. I think it was the 6200 AGP WANG card). I wonder if his bottleneck is the CPU on that GPU or is it the GPU for that specific case scenario. I was at some point thinking of trying to watercool the PowerMac G4 CPU and GPU both but I actually wonder if that can be done without big issues. I've seen someone do it I think. I've never set up a watercooling system before either. A watercooled PowerMac G4 sounds interesting. I've also thought about how much of a performance increase would a PowerMac G4 get if liquid metal was used instead of thermal paste.

 

[ChrisCharman]

I don't think I had much expectation for a 2GHZ dual CPU to appear to be honest. It doesn't hurt to question if there are any in circulation. It's already a challenge to find 7448 CPU chips of any kind running at any clock speed from what I was told. Of course a dual 2GHZ 7448 can be achieved and I bet even a dual 2.4GHZ 7448 can be achieved as well.

OWC is a pretty good company I think if you're looking for upgrades. I got their data doubler and it never gave me issues and I have an Early 2009 white MacBook (well it's in parts right now, I'm working on that machine as well) and it came with an OWC SSD in it.

I wonder if Sonnet, Giga Designs, and OWC have any old stock left of any kind. It's possible and I don't know what the likelihood would be for that either.

I'm sure many of you watch ActionRetro on YouTube and have seen his PowerMac G4 MDD run a dual 2GHZ G4 (7448). I revisited his Cube video where he was running a single 2GHZ 7448 G4 paired up with an Nvidia GPU of sorts (I can't remember. I think it was the 6200 AGP WANG card). I wonder if his bottleneck is the CPU on that GPU or is it the GPU for that specific case scenario. I was at some point thinking of trying to watercool the PowerMac G4 CPU and GPU both but I actually wonder if that can be done without big issues. I've seen someone do it I think. I've never set up a watercooling system before either. A watercooled PowerMac G4 sounds interesting. I've also thought about how much of a performance increase would a PowerMac G4 get if liquid metal was used instead of thermal paste.

There were no dual 2Ghz units ever released as far as i’m aware, only single processor models.

Gigadesigns went out of business and I’d imagine Sonnet and NewerTech/OWC et al either cleared through their stock at end of production or disposed of any remaining units - retailers generally don’t hold on to inventory.

Yeah i watch ActionRetro, along with a lot of the old school PowerPC YouTubers that still put out content.

I’d be interested to see your efforts if you do decide to experiment with overclocking and water-cooling, there used to be a lot more experimentation back in the day. Cooling technology and thermal compounds have improved since then so you may even be able to set a new record.

 

[Adarna]

My apologies of dropping out of from New Posts and replying to the posts I quoted.

A bit of background about me.

These are my past PowerPC Macs

• iMac G3 500 DV SE (Summer 2000) - sold
• Power Macintosh G4 1.0 DP (QS 2002) - in storage
• iBook G3/800 (Early 2003 - Op) - sold
• iBook G4/1.33 12" (Mid-2005 - Op) - sold

Like many I also went into the rabbit hole of upgrading PPC and Intel Macs to maxed out specs for fun. Treating them like the adult version of LEGO.

Back in 2012 when I wanted to swap out the iMac 20" "Core 2 Duo" 2.0 (Al) CPU from a dual core T7300 to a quad core X7900 a friend pointed out to me that the money of doing so via overpriced eBay purchase that may not even work may be better placed towards buying a brand new year 2012 or newer Mac.

Looking back at the myriad of PATA to CompactFlash adapters, PRAM batteries and other parts and consumables when added up could yield a brand new Mac.

I am a ware of certain use cases that the developer has abandoned unique apps that have no equivalent substitute on Intel & Apple silicon so that's a specific use case for keeping old hardware but sometimes from all the fun we sometimes forget that MysticCow's Mac mini rule should be looked at. Better yet buy $AAPL instead.

That's why I somewhat specific about years, dates and node process size of the chips powering PowerPCs as sometimes we dont consider it from the nostalgia.

With Macs with Apple silicon coming in I am considering disposing of these Intel Macs

• Early 2006 MacBook Pro 15-Inch "Core Duo" 2.0
• Mid-2007 iMac 20-Inch "Core 2 Duo" 2.0 (Al)
• Early 2008 MacBook Pro 15-Inch "Core 2 Duo" 2.4
• Late 2008 MacBook Pro 15-Inch "Core 2 Duo" 2.4 (Unibody)
• Mid-2010 MacBook Pro 13-Inch "Core 2 Duo" 2.4
• Late 2011 MacBook Pro 13-Inch "Core i7" 2.8
• Late 2012 iMac 27-Inch "Core i7" 3.4
• Late 2015 iMac 21.5-Inch "Core i5" 1.6
• Early 2016 MacBook "Core m5" 1.2 12"
• Late 2018 MacBook Air "Core i5" 1.6 13"
• Late 2019 MacBook Pro 16-Inch "Core i7" 2.6

 

[ChrisCharman]

My apologies of dropping out of from New Posts and replying to the posts I quoted.

A bit of background about me.

These are my past PowerPC Macs

• iMac G3 500 DV SE (Summer 2000) - sold
• Power Macintosh G4 1.0 DP (QS 2002) - in storage
• iBook G3/800 (Early 2003 - Op) - sold
• iBook G4/1.33 12" (Mid-2005 - Op) - sold

Like many I also went into the rabbit hole of upgrading PPC and Intel Macs to maxed out specs for fun. Treating them like the adult version of LEGO.

Back in 2012 when I wanted to swap out the iMac 20" "Core 2 Duo" 2.0 (Al) CPU from a dual core T7300 to a quad core X7900 a friend pointed out to me that the money of doing so via overpriced eBay purchase that may not even work may be better placed towards buying a brand new year 2012 or newer Mac.

Looking back at the myriad of PATA to CompactFlash adapters, PRAM batteries and other parts and consumables when added up could yield a brand new Mac.

I am a ware of certain use cases that the developer has abandoned unique apps that have no equivalent substitute on Intel & Apple silicon so that's a specific use case for keeping old hardware but sometimes from all the fun we sometimes forget that MysticCow's Mac mini rule should be looked at.

That's why I somewhat specific about years, dates and node process size of the chips powering PowerPCs as sometimes we dont consider it from the nostalgia.

I appreciate the point you make however i think i can say with confidence that nobody in the PowerPC community would be doing what they are doing on any of these machines if it wasn’t enjoyable or if the machines weren’t performing the tasks that the user purchased them for. The classic car analogy is my main point. While it’s true that new users would be ill advised to purchase a vintage mac in lieu of a more recent model, the rest of us are collectors and tinkerers and enjoy our PowerPC machines for what they are. We all have hobbies or vices that we sink unnecessary funds into - life is short so to each their own.

 

[MicroTecture]

There were no dual 2Ghz units ever released as far as i’m aware, only single processor models.

Gigadesigns went out of business and I’d imagine Sonnet and NewerTech/OWC et al either cleared through their stock at end of production or disposed of any remaining units - retailers generally don’t hold on to inventory.

Yeah i watch ActionRetro, along with a lot of the old school PowerPC YouTubers that still put out content.

I’d be interested to see your efforts if you do decide to experiment with overclocking and water-cooling, there used to be a lot more experimentation back in the day. Cooling technology and thermal compounds have improved since then so you may even be able to set a new record.

My 7800 GS GPU arrives today. Excited to see how it turns out with the DA. I wonder if it could also be water cooled. I should definitely upgrade the Mac’s RAM soon.

If I ever get a G5 dual or quad, I’d go ATI since open source GPU support is drastically better on Linux. A G5 quad would be something cool to own but likely hard to find at a reasonable price.

I got my G4 PowerMac by basically blind guessing with Craigslist ad that was setup weirdly with lack of actual meaningful info as well as some other miscellaneous things that ended up making the price of the Mac at under $30

Rare to me because for where I live, machines likes those are uncommon I think.

 

[ChrisCharman]

The 7800GS should be an excellent card in that machine. RAM should absolutely be maxed out and it’s inexpensive.

I’m looking at flashing an X1950XT for the G5 soon although i may also need a decent Nvidia card for testing purposes.

G4’s are still pretty abundant in the U.K and usually affordable, although the prices are starting to creep up. I managed to get my G5 11,2 for under £20, so there are always bargains to find if you’re patient enough.

 

[MicroTecture]

The 7800GS should be an excellent card in that machine. RAM should absolutely be maxed out and it’s inexpensive.

I’m looking at flashing an X1950XT for the G5 soon although i may also need a decent Nvidia card for testing purposes.

G4’s are still pretty abundant in the U.K and usually affordable, although the prices are starting to creep up. I managed to get my G5 11,2 for under £20, so there are always bargains to find if you’re patient enough.

I’m in the US and recently I found prices that go above $30 definitely. The 7800 GS works as I come to find. Excited and happy about the results I got from it so far. I got it working under 10.4.11 macOS X Server. Now I have a new issue which is getting the Leopard installer to work. It won’t even boot to the Leopard installer, it just kernel panics without any log files displayed on the left side of the screen. I updated the original GPU post that details this weird issue with the Leopard installer by the way.

 

[ChrisCharman]

I’m in the US and recently I found prices that go above $30 definitely. The 7800 GS works as I come to find. Excited and happy about the results I got from it so far. I got it working under 10.4.11 macOS X Server. Now I have a new issue which is getting the Leopard installer to work. It won’t even boot to the Leopard installer, it just kernel panics without any log files displayed on the left side of the screen. I updated the original GPU post that details this weird issue with the Leopard installer by the way.

You may need to use Leopard Assist or modify the installer if the DA doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for Leopard.

 

[Amethyst1]

You may need to use Leopard Assist or modify the installer if the DA doesn’t meet the minimum requirements for Leopard.

It should still boot into the installer (and then print an error message). A kernel panic usually points to a more serious problem.

 

[MicroTecture]

It should still boot into the installer (and then print an error message). A kernel panic usually points to a more serious problem.

What’s stranger is the fact that a 10.4.6 installer (well I used an iPartition boot disc based off of 10.4.6’s boot installer) actually works.

I could try to resize the partition and create a new partition; then I can boot back into Tiger and restore a Sorbet Leopard image onto the newly made partition.

I’m not an expert at kernel panic diagnosing here; if there’s a log file somewhere then that could help. So far the shortcut keys used (e.g. command + V) when booting the installer seem to do absolutely nothing. I could use Leopard Assist to get a verbose output.

Anyone got ideas?

 

[eyoungren]

…a friend pointed out to me that the money of doing so via overpriced eBay purchase that may not even work may be better placed towards buying a brand new year 2012 or newer Mac.…

For us, it's all about the value PowerPC hardware and software brings to us. Money is a means to that end, and whether it could be used better elsewhere is irrelevant to the value we hold in our old Macs.

 

[Adarna]

For us, it's all about the value PowerPC hardware and software brings to us. Money is a means to that end, and whether it could be used better elsewhere is irrelevant to the value we hold in our old Macs.

No contest. It’s your time.

I’m reaching out to those who may have just rabbit holed it as I did.

looking back id rather $AAPL instead.

 

[ahurst]

It is possible to swap out chips and it has been done, but finding affordable 7448s is difficult. There are some chip-swapped CPU boards for sale over on 68kmla. Otherwise, ebay is maybe the best place to look for G4 CPU upgrades.

Are there any threads where I can read more about this? I have a G4 Digital Audio I saved from the recycling ages ago with the intention of building an OS 9 gaming machine, but the 466 MHz CPU is a massive bottleneck even with maxed-out RAM and a flashed 4600 Ti GPU. I've fantasized for years about getting a CPU upgrade of some kind, but they're all super-rare and far too expensive to justify for a fun hobby machine. If there's been research on DIY solutions I'd be very interested!

 

[MicroTecture]

Are there any threads where I can read more about this? I have a G4 Digital Audio I saved from the recycling ages ago with the intention of building an OS 9 gaming machine, but the 466 MHz CPU is a massive bottleneck even with maxed-out RAM and a flashed 4600 Ti GPU. I've fantasized for years about getting a CPU upgrade of some kind, but they're all super-rare and far too expensive to justify for a fun hobby machine. If there's been research on DIY solutions I'd be very interested!

I haven't seen any DIY solutions accessible for beginners. Soldering is difficult, extremely difficult. I think a beginner would be more like to mess up. You would need to be experienced in soldering I would think. I'd like to see a dual 2.4 GHZ 7448 CPU come up for the PowerMac G4 Digital Audio / Quicksilver.

 

[eyoungren]

I haven't seen any DIY solutions accessible for beginners. Soldering is difficult, extremely difficult. I think a beginner would be more like to mess up. You would need to be experienced in soldering I would think. I'd like to see a dual 2.4 GHZ 7448 CPU come up for the PowerMac G4 Digital Audio / Quicksilver.

My dad was an electrical engineer and a whiz at using a soldering iron. He had all that stuff down. Me, not so much. I did not inherit that from him. I've done it and in the process burned a few things. I did fix an issue I had with an old Amiga monitor, but destroyed the speaker connection. I also managed to get a BT antenna on a Mini re-soldered back on, but the Mini lost 50 percent of it's BT connectivity.

Yeah. It's very difficult.

 

[MicroTecture]

My dad was an electrical engineer and a whiz at using a soldering iron. He had all that stuff down. Me, not so much. I did not inherit that from him. I've done it and in the process burned a few things. I did fix an issue I had with an old Amiga monitor, but destroyed the speaker connection. I also managed to get a BT antenna on a Mini re-soldered back on, but the Mini lost 50 percent of it's BT connectivity.

Yeah. It's very difficult.

A family member I know actually knows how to solder but I don't remember to what degree. I know he did a lot of impressive things that I believe got his work put in for recognition at a university not too far from where I live. Due to numerous circumstances, he wouldn't actually be able to do it because his eyesight is in simple terms not what it was before and so he wouldn't be able to do it.

I think he learned soldering in school or he was either self taught. I never asked him before to be honest.

 

[ChrisCharman]

I’m pretty sure you can’t use a soldering iron to attach a BGA chip to a PCB. @dosdude1 uses a heat gun of some sort and another piece of equipment which heats the board as well. I highly recommend watching the videos on his YouTube channel if you’re serious about wanting to attempt this.

 

[MicroTecture]

I’m pretty sure you can’t use a soldering iron to attach a BGA chip to a PCB. @dosdude1 uses a heat gun of some sort and another piece of equipment which heats the board as well. I highly recommend watching the videos on his YouTube channel if you’re serious about wanting to attempt this.

I think it's important to recognize that doing these sorts of things are very challenging. I think before I'd attempt anything like this, I may need to practice these kinds of things first and practice them well. I could likely get classes on these kinds of things as well to help out. I don't remember if DosDude1 was self-taught or how he learned to do these things.

Don't know if there are any companies that would take on this kind of work as well (to like ship in and have ship back).

 

[ChrisCharman]

I think it's important to recognize that doing these sorts of things are very challenging. I think before I'd attempt anything like this, I may need to practice these kinds of things first and practice them well. I could likely get classes on these kinds of things as well to help out. I don't remember if DosDude1 was self-taught or how he learned to do these things.

Don't know if there are any companies that would take on this kind of work as well (to like ship in and have ship back).

There used to be companies that would upgrade your PowerBook or iMac with a faster processor, but they haven’t done that since the PowerPC machines were in their prime. You could try and speak to any local repair shops in the area where you live and see if they are able and willing to provide the service and gather some quotes. Failing that you could message Dosdude and see if he’d be up for assisting you.

If you choose to learn how to do do this yourself and decide to take the plunge please post your journey on here as i’m sure it will be fascinating. Good luck and best wishes!