iPad Pro Craig and Joz discussing iPad on The Talk Show

[rkuo]

Unfortunately, after years and thousands and thousands of dollars spent on apple technology, I’m on the conclusion that keeping the iPad away from functionality levels you would get on the laptop is purely a marketing decision. Clearly they must have the program could tweak iPadOS to function more life, you get with a laptop. There’s also just weird clumsy things with this new M4 13 inch when using it with their keyboard. One thing I have to go in and make adjustments to keyboard settings just to be able to type in the browser of otherwise it’s disabled. or forced to go between the little widgets at the bottom of the screen when using the keyboard back-and-forth keyboard, touch, keyboard, touch, help, help touch, keyboard saving files to folders is so convoluted it’s ridiculous. I have to upload and load things to get them where they need to go. is that Lil cursor that is so thick it covers what I need to see underneath it half the time. 13 minute screen should be able to have an arrow instead of that round ball. It’s true. I have forced a lot of laptop product onto this iPad. I’m running the full office. Suite teams SharePoint power VI the full Adobe suite including Acrobat pro. Acrobat pro on this iPad has been the most frustrating trying to manipulate store files in the sophomore file system is terrible. You have to ask yourself. Where do they wanna go with this product and where do you consumers wanted to go. Relate to me. It’s just gone from being a device with some drawing capabilities that started out around $700 and they just made it look prettier slimmer, etc. while they ramp the pricing up to where I’ve got $2500 invested. This is my fault for some reason I love the form factor of being able to carry this versus my 13 inch laptop. it just can’t keep up.

It’s cool and exciting when a company tries to make the best product it can, and you get a chance to buy in. Even if it’s expensive, they are doing their best to make something amazing, and you’re getting a chance to be a part of that.

When companies stop trying to make products the best they can in favor of artificial segmentation to preserve or extend their profits, that relationship changes. No one likes paying more for accounting tricks or artificial segmentation instead of better products. AT&T and Verizon and Comcast don’t inspire customer loyalty.

 

[Digitalguy]

I'd argue iPadOS 16 wasn't a minor update (external monitor support and better multitasking with Stage Manager). And iPadOS 17 brought along Enhanced AutoFill for PDFs and profiles with Safari (more responsive searches too).

iPadOS 16 was the biggest update after 13, but IMO way smaller than 13. Stage Manager is indeed a bid deal but was pretty poor in 16 and took 17 make it decent... Autofill and profiles are very minor updates for me, but maybe for some they are a big deal...

Because I think people are looking for major updates every year for the iPad... but that's never been the case. It's like a tick-tock cycle, some updates are minor... while some can be big.

I think this year was a minor update for iPadOS because Apple was heavily focus on AI... but luckily, it's coming to iPadOS as well. Imagine, it only came to the iPhone and Mac... while leaving the iPad out of it (whereas Vision Pro is not supported).

Well people had been requesting monitor support since just after iPadOS, it took 3 years to arrive, people have been requesting a clipboard manager for years, and it's still not there....
And don't get me started on the most important of all, background apps and much better use of the RAM (Safari can't tell between 8 and 16 GB RAM when it comes to reloads). Make it optional, whatever, but give the option to power users.
And to reply to a previous point you had made I had not replied to, I don't want to export from Dropbox to the File app. I want Files to sync full folders just as they do in the app for paid users like me. Actually not just like.. better, with backgraound sync like on Windows and MacOS.

And to add some more, why can't I use a second iPad as a monitor for my iPad (iPad Sidecar)? Is this so hard to do? Why just the Mac can? Why do I need a Mac in the middle to use Universal control, when it already works with 2 iPads?

For me who owns multiple iPads, these are very important things, I don't know if it's lack of resources dedicated to iPadOS or if it's a choice from Apple... but it's sad, as these features would make an already great device so much better and productive....

 

[Ludatyk]

Well people had been requesting monitor support since just after iPadOS, it took 3 years to arrive, people have been requesting a clipboard manager for years, and it's still not there....

I use a combination of Copied (no longer available) and Glady's for a clipboard manager...

And don't get me started on the most important of all, background apps and much better use of the RAM (Safari can't tell between 8 and 16 GB RAM when it comes to reloads). Make it optional, whatever, but give the option to power users.

I consider myself a power iPad user... haven't experienced issues with Safari reloads, but then again... I use Bookmarks and I'm not big on having a lot of tabs open.

And to reply to a previous point you had made I had not replied to, I don't want to export from Dropbox to the File app. I want Files to sync full folders just as they do in the app for paid users like me. Actually not just like.. better, with backgraound sync like on Windows and MacOS.

And this where it comes full circle... if you are not willing to work within the parameters of iPadOS, because it's one thing to say... "the workflow don't exist on iPadOS" and another thing to say, "I don't like the way it exists on iPadOS."

Because I completely understand you want File app to sync full folder... but have you tried to use other file managers? And I didn't say export Dropbox to the File app... I stated export to the app you want to work within. For example, you might want to export a Drobox file to a PDF app or maybe Office app.

And to add some more, why can't I use a second iPad as a monitor for my iPad (iPad Sidecar)? Is this so hard to do? Why just the Mac can? Why do I need a Mac in the middle to use Universal control, when it already works with 2 iPads?

I hear you, but have you made the suggestion to Apple on this? I personally don't see a need for this... I think it aligns perfectly for the Mac, because the Mac has variety of hardware. From the Mac Mini and Mac Studio, to the MacBooks and then there's the iMac.

Edit... oh yeah, the Mac is keyboard and mouse dependent whereas the iPad can be used without it.

 

[subjonas]

John Gruber brings up the iPad/Mac discussion around the 58 minute mark. Both Craig and Joz said the Mac and iPad are different products. They both said they love their Mac and their iPad. Then Craig compared putting the M4 in the iPad to someone having a truck and a sports car with a V8 engine but wondering why the sports car can’t tow their boat. Then he finished by saying he wants the iPad to be the best iPad it can be.

It seems pretty clear from those comments that iPadOS isn’t getting closer to macOS anytime soon. The question I would ask them is what about customers who don’t want (or can’t afford) to own an iPad and a Mac? A top of the line iPad Pro is as expensive as a Mac laptop. Is Craig really saying that it is impossible for Apple to create a version of iPadOS that could be the best tablet experience but also serve more pro workflows that exist on the Mac? He threw in a dig at Windows 8 but Microsoft taking a desktop OS and shoehorning it into a tablet is nothing like Apple making a touch first OS more capable of doing desktop like workflows. I think I’d have more respect for their comments if they just said yeah we’d like you to own both devices.

Until iPad can do exactly everything a Mac does, there will always be someone making your same complaint. But if the iPad ever truly gets there, then it will be a Mac, not an iPad. There was another phrase said I think by Gruber during the interview—“the Mac is heavy so that the iPad can be light”. The more one tries to be the other, the more they lose focus at the thing they’re supposed to be. So yes, it is impossible for Apple to create the best tablet experience while also being able to do everything a Mac can do. The larger iPads are already compromised tablets. The thinning of the newest iPad Pro is an attempt to dial it back in to being a better tablet. But that also means it’s less thermally capable of doing things Macs do—thermals being just one things Macs prioritize differently. If there are some specific things you want the iPad to do, perhaps they will come in due time, depending on what they are. But to be on par with Mac across the board is not realistic.

 

[subjonas]

You know what has really happened here?

They wanted to give the iPad more power, BUT they didn't want to design new separate A#X chips, so they slapped M chips into the iPads and people inferred unrealistic expectations of what it should be capable of.

We need to re-adjust expectations to be lower and not expect much out of these. They're just gonna be big iPhones and we should use them as such.

I agree with this, but I’d add that iPhones are powerful and so big iPhones are exactly what a lot of people need and are happy with.

 

[subjonas]

For me it’s mostly proper desktop extensions for browsers and a the Music app having feature parity with its desktop version. Actually I’d say that about most productivity apps.

I could see these being addressed at some point, but of course a lot of this falls on third party developers. Although with the overwhelming popularity of streaming music, I don’t know if all the music library management tools will ever make their way to iPad.

 

[subjonas]

No, and if a Mac laptop was my main computing device I wouldn’t own an iPad Pro or Air. But what if someone wants the iPad to be their main computing device?

For a lot of people the iPad is their main computing device. It can’t be for everyone of course.

 

[subjonas]

Macs lacking touch-screens is not tenable long-term. Every child being born is someone who will find it unfathomable for a personal computing device not to respond to touches on the screen.

I don’t think this is true because touch is not the end all. It’s unergonomic for many work cases, so it’s unlikely people will come to always expect it.

 

[subjonas]

We should never follow this concept, it we do the iPhone would still be a tiny hand held phone as that was the design to reach all screen hand held, but then the rest of the tech space and development of new tools in IOS made it so we have big iPhones.

Well, I hate big phones lol

 

[Digitalguy]

I use a combination of Copied (no longer available) and Glady's for a clipboard manager...

I want a native iPadOS one

I consider myself a power iPad user... haven't experienced issues with Safari reloads, but then again... I use Bookmarks and I'm not big on having a lot of tabs open.

I don't think it's a matter of lots of tabs, I never keep over 10 and it's often around 5-7, but it's more a question of what pages (some take much more RAM and Safari can't use more than a given amount of RAM, probably 2GB)

And this where it comes full circle... if you are not willing to work within the parameters of iPadOS, because it's one thing to say... "the workflow don't exist on iPadOS" and another thing to say, "I don't like the way it exists on iPadOS."

Because I completely understand you want File app to sync full folder... but have you tried to use other file managers? And I didn't say export Dropbox to the File app... I stated export to the app you want to work within. For example, you might want to export a Drobox file to a PDF app or maybe Office app.

Yes, I use FileBrowser Pro, but it's not as seamless as the file app, you have to request access to a file app folder all the time etc. I want the file app to improve. And I want a more file centric device, because I think that is a more efficient way of dealing with files. You are of course free to disagree. But personally I am not embracing the way the iPad works on this specific point.

I hear you, but have you made the suggestion to Apple on this? I personally don't see a need for this... I think it aligns perfectly for the Mac, because the Mac has variety of hardware. From the Mac Mini and Mac Studio, to the MacBooks and then there's the iMac.

My suggestion counts for nothing honestly. For me it's a big deal. Portable monitors destroy iPad battery life way faster than laptops due to the smaller battery. And even on laptops I use tablets as portable monitors to avoid draining the battery. And since I own multiple iPads pro (2 11" and 2 12.9") iPad sidecar would be ideal.

 

[Digitalguy]

The thinning of the newest iPad Pro is an attempt to dial it back in to being a better tablet. But that also means it’s less thermally capable of doing things Macs do—thermals being just one things Macs prioritize differently. If there are some specific things you want the iPad to do, perhaps they will come in due time, depending on what they are. But to be on par with Mac across the board is not realistic.

Still, M4 has better thermals than M1 and M2, stays cooler under load and throttles less

 

[Digitalguy]

Well, I hate big phones lol

me too...

 

[Ludatyk]

I want a native iPadOS one

And that would be better... how lol? There's a native file app... yet you want a more improved one.

Yes, I use FileBrowser Pro, but it's not as seamless as the file app, you have to request access to a file app folder all the time etc.

I've never experienced this... once you give DropBox full access to FileBrowser Pro, I don't see why you have to do it all the time. That must be a bug.

I want the file app to improve. And I want a more file centric device, because I think that is a more efficient way of dealing with files. You are of course free to disagree. But personally I am not embracing the way the iPad works on this specific point.

You want a better File app, yet... you don't like the app centric style of iPadOS. Because even if you get an improved File app... it's going to be restricted by the app centric style of iPadOS.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that a file centric approach is more efficient, my point being is that the workflow does exist.

 

[Digitalguy]

You want a better File app, yet... you don't like the app centric style of iPadOS. Because even if you get an improved File app... it's going to be restricted by the app centric style of iPadOS.

And I'm not disagreeing with you that a file centric approach is more efficient, my point being is that the workflow does exist.

If we get full choice of default apps that could be a decent compromise for me

 

[Digitalguy]

I've never experienced this... once you give DropBox full access to FileBrowser Pro, I don't see why you have to do it all the time. That must be a bug.

I think there was a misunderstanding. I was talking about Filebrowser interaction with the file app. I can give it full access to Dropbox, but it won't sync my folders, only the Dropbox app can

 

[Ludatyk]

If we get full choice of default apps that could be a decent compromise for me

What do you mean by this? Without the use of Share Sheets?

I think there was a misunderstanding. I was talking about Filebrowser interaction with the file app. I can give it full access to Dropbox, but it won't sync my folders, only the Dropbox app can

If I'm understanding you correctly... you want to open a file and whatever changes you make, it auto syncs to Dropbox in the File app?

Now iWorks (Pages, Keynote and Numbers), Office suite... can plugin into Dropbox using the files app and sync files this way. I was just able to open a document in Word and Pages (via Dropbox in File app) ... make changes, then it auto syncs to Dropbox.

Unless you are working with an app that don't have access to file app... then I can understand the dilemma.

 

[Digitalguy]

What do you mean by this? Without the use of Share Sheets?

No change in sharing, just be able to choose a default app like on Android

If I'm understanding you correctly... you want to open a file and whatever changes you make, it auto syncs to Dropbox in the File app?

Not only that I want to have full folders with files ready for offline use with changes sync as soon as I have a connection

Now iWorks (Pages, Keynote and Numbers), Office suite... can plugin into Dropbox using the files app and sync files this way. I was just able to open a document in Word and Pages (via Dropbox in File app) ... make changes, then it auto syncs to Dropbox.

Unless you are working with an app that don't have access to file app... then I can understand the dilemma.

I already use Office with Dropbox, and Dropbox in the file app. And yes you can sync single files but not full folders for offline use like I can on desktop OSs

 

[subjonas]

Well one thing I’m fairly certain of: iPad Pro would have more of a defined purpose. Like I said it was apples decision to fork iOS into iPadOS and give iPads the same chips as Macs. To do that but keep the operating system incredibly basic makes no sense.

They could have continued calling it iOS for iPad, or called it iPadOS—either makes sense to me since it is a slightly different iPad version of iOS, but iPadOS is shorter.
And there are benefits to using the same chip in both devices and technical reasons why they both can’t use it in the exact same way. Macs have better thermals and bigger batteries for better sustained performance and background processes, but the iPad still benefits from faster performance in shorter bursts.

Making iPadOS more full featured doesn’t have to over complicate it for the average iPad user. My mother doesn’t know what stage manager is. She’s never used split view or slide over. or the Files app for that matter. It’s possible to accommodate both types of users if Apple wants to

Up to a point. But eventually adding functionality has to have consequences. It will either muddy up the UI too much and/or hog up too much resources, especially if Apple has to maintain two levels of functionality/UI. Apple is probably adding features slowly so as not to blow past that point.

 

[subjonas]

Absolutely brilliant! You must immediately give your expert counsel to YouTubers like Christopher Lawley, who disposed of his Mac and does all of his content creation for his successful channel on an iPad Pro (using Final Cut Pro), and enlighten him on how he's foolishly wasting his time and money on his "glorified iPhone."

People intend to use the term “glorified iPhone” as a disparagement, but it’s as disparaging as saying Superman is just a big Mighty Mouse—ie. it’s not. iPhone is an amazingly powerful and intuitive device, its only downside being its small size, so a larger “glorified” version of it is indeed glorious.

 

[subjonas]

It’s not just about the cost. It’s the fundamental idea of needing to juggle around 2 devices that bothers some people: it’s fine for me to cough up extra if that means I only need to worry about one device, not 2 devices or More.
And Apple delivers exactly NOT that and keep pushing people to buy 2 devices.

But then if Apple offers a way for people to have both devices at a reasonable cost, then maybe they truly believe two devices is the better UX for most people (not all) due to the necessary trade offs of combining function.

 

[subjonas]

There is no good reason why there should be power-user laptops/desktops only and not also power-user tablets.

I think the reason is touch UI and the tablet form factor aren’t as conducive to power-usage as traditional computers. This is due to:
- having to hold a tablet which means good screen size/thermals/battery always come at a higher penalty of usability than with traditional computers and eventually gets tiresome regardless, or you have to set it up with peripherals/a monitor each time which is added work and somewhat negates its tabletness
- the bad ergonomics of touch over extended periods
- the required large touch targets of touch UI which means more information and controls have to be buried in sub menus.

Bottom line being there is a smaller market for a power user tablet, probably too small.

 

[rkuo]

People intend to use the term “glorified iPhone” as a disparagement, but it’s as disparaging as saying Superman is just a big Mighty Mouse—ie. it’s not. iPhone is an amazingly powerful and intuitive device, its only downside being its small size, so a larger “glorified” version of it is indeed glorious.

This is, in fact, much of its appeal to our parents. They obviously must have a phone, so having an iPad means they don’t need to start from square one learning how to use another device.

 

[rkuo]

I think the reason is touch UI and the tablet form factor aren’t as conducive to power-usage as traditional computers. This is due to:
- having to hold a tablet which means good screen size/thermals/battery always come at a higher penalty of usability than with traditional computers and eventually gets tiresome regardless, or you have to set it up with peripherals/a monitor each time which is added work and somewhat negates its tabletness
- the bad ergonomics of touch over extended periods
- the required large touch targets of touch UI which means more information and controls have to be buried in sub menus.

Bottom line being there is a smaller market for a power user tablet, probably too small.

I actually find my iPad to be far more ergonomically friendly as a portable device. Twisting my wrist to use the built in trackpads is awful.

But I sit down with a mouse and keyboard on macOS when productivity is the priority.

 

[Shirasaki]

But then if Apple offers a way for people to have both devices at a reasonable cost, then maybe they truly believe two devices is the better UX for most people (not all) due to the necessary trade offs of combining function.

“Reasonable cost” is never into their dictionary. Sure, there are plenty discounts, offers etc to buy M1 MacBook Air for “cheap”, plus a basic iPad, but not directly from Apple with those prices.
With that being said, you know how iPhone Becomes what it is today? Because customer keeps asking Apple to include more and more things their iPhone can do year after year. From plugging in a display, keyboard and mouse to turn iOS into iPadOS or even macOS, to asking for bigger and bigger screens just so whatever they try to do has bigger canvas to work with, despite iPad can do almost everything much better than iPhone. People generally don’t want to carry and/or use two devices. They want one device to do everything for them.
Apple has to try very hard to not please those who want one iPad for everything and they are still trying.

 

[Digitalguy]

I think the reason is touch UI and the tablet form factor aren’t as conducive to power-usage as traditional computers. This is due to:
- having to hold a tablet which means good screen size/thermals/battery always come at a higher penalty of usability than with traditional computers and eventually gets tiresome regardless, or you have to set it up with peripherals/a monitor each time which is added work and somewhat negates its tabletness
- the bad ergonomics of touch over extended periods
- the required large touch targets of touch UI which means more information and controls have to be buried in sub menus.

Bottom line being there is a smaller market for a power user tablet, probably too small.

Totally disagree. Many people don't need to run stuff that requires a gaming laptop or a macbook pro to get their work done. The iPad pro would be plenty in terms of thermals and battery (better than many x86 laptops and you have a choice of sizes, and 13 is good enough for many people, I find even 11" good enough). The addition of the Magic Keyboard does not negate anything. The magic of the iPad pro is that you can simply remove it and turn it into a 100% tablet.
Bottom line is that iPad pro is for power power users, then what exactly is a power user it's up for debate... For me it's being able to do as much as I can on the iPad (including work) when on the go.