Crazy to buy a 2013?

[Riwam]

Did you actually have something to address what he said? Or was an ad hom all you got?

*******
There are people so sure to have swallowed the entire truth of this world that you could argue for years and it will not change a miligram in their thoughts (no matter if the other person is right or wrong).
By principle the other guy or lady will be wrong.

The true question to which I have no answer, is why on earth someone who deeply despises and dislikes all Macs and particularly makes fun of the nMP Late 2013 since it was released, while for himself builds or buys entirely different computers using entirely different hardware and OS, like AidenShaw, is always adding posts in a forum of Mac users, just to laugh at people who (right or wrong) buy, use and like their Macs and he is always doing his best to show that they are absolutely wrong.

I would not post in for instance a forum of -say- users of Dell workstations since first I do not have one and second do not intend to buy one.

Just to try to point to weeknesses in different Dell computers, which no doubt must exist (since perfection is not human), would neither bring me any pleasure nor justify in my eyes to invest any time or energy to do so.

I believe that I could possibly one day find here or there something made by Apple, either in the OS, in the software or in the hardware, which would be better than something more or less similar made or used by Dell.
Still I wouldn't care at all to try to prove it to any Dell user.
I prefer people satisfied with what they build or buy and use than to show off how smart I might be, even if (not entirely impossible!) for once in my life what I believe would happen to be the pure truth.
Ed

 

[MacVidCards]

*******
There are people so sure to have swallowed the entire truth of this world that you could argue for years and it will not change a miligram in their thoughts (no matter if the other person is right or wrong).
By principle the other guy or lady will be wrong.

The true question to which I have no answer, is why on earth someone who deeply despises and dislikes all Macs and particularly makes fun of the nMP Late 2013 since it was released, while for himself builds or buys entirely different computers using entirely different hardware and OS, like AidenShaw, is always adding posts in a forum of Mac users, just to laugh at people who (right or wrong) buy, use and like their Macs and he is always doing his best to show that they are absolutely wrong.

I would not post in for instance a forum of -say- users of Dell workstations since first I do not have one and second do not intend to buy one.

Just to try to point to weeknesses in different Dell computers, which no doubt must exist (since perfection is not human), would neither bring me any pleasure nor justify in my eyes to invest any time or energy to do so.

I believe that I could possibly one day find here or there something made by Apple, either in the OS, in the software or in the hardware, which would be better than something more or less similar made or used by Dell.
Still I wouldn't care at all to try to prove it to any Dell user.
I prefer people satisfied with what they build or buy and use than to show off how smart I might be, even if (not entirely impossible!) for once in my life what I believe would happen to be the pure truth.
Ed

Not sure why this is so difficult.

Aiden, myself, and many of the Mac types here in Hollywood (and other places where people created the stuff watched on iPads via Netflix) really liked using past Mac Pros.

Apple stopped making real ones and started making toy ones.

We don't like those as much.

This is especially galling as since Apple uses same xxx86 parts as everyone else, they could easily make incredible, or at least competitive machines. Instead they make toys with old parts.

We really, REALLY wish they would make real computers again.

And while there has been a bunch of Apologists saying "stop saying mean things about Apple, they rock !" and "the nMp is the quintessential computer of all time and it's so cool looking that you should stop pointing out what old and limited tech it uses and Apple isn't going to change course just because people like you party-poopers complain about their toys". Which may very well be true. But they certainly aren't going to change course and build real computers again if everyone sits around admiring the extruded finish and glows about having TB2 peripherals that cost $100s more but run at 1/4 the speed of what a 2008 MP could connect PCIE devices at.

So yes, we will keep telling the truth. And someday you may even thank us.

 

[thefredelement]

Not sure why this is so difficult.

Aiden, myself, and many of the Mac types here in Hollywood (and other places where people created the stuff watched on iPads via Netflix) really liked using past Mac Pros.

Apple stopped making real ones and started making toy ones.

We don't like those as much.

This is especially galling as since Apple uses same xxx86 parts as everyone else, they could easily make incredible, or at least competitive machines. Instead they make toys with old parts.

We really, REALLY wish they would make real computers again.

And while there has been a bunch of Apologists saying "stop saying mean things about Apple, they rock !" and "the nMp is the quintessential computer of all time and it's so cool looking that you should stop pointing out what old and limited tech it uses and Apple isn't going to change course just because people like you party-poopers complain about their toys". Which may very well be true. But they certainly aren't going to change course and build real computers again if everyone sits around admiring the extruded finish and glows about having TB2 peripherals that cost $100s more but run at 1/4 the speed of what a 2008 MP could connect PCIE devices at.

So yes, we will keep telling the truth. And someday you may even thank us.

As was said in Shawshank, get busy living or get busy dying. If the apps you use are supported better elsewhere and that makes your job easier / better / more customizable / faster / has better warranty, etc. then you should use it there. As previously discussed, seemingly everywhere where you and I intersect, the new form factor is the best tool for running Apple's apps. They're not going to make a computer that runs their competitors software better than their own.

 

[MacVidCards]

As was said in Shawshank, get busy living or get busy dying. If the apps you use are supported better elsewhere and that makes your job easier / better / more customizable / faster / has better warranty, etc. then you should use it there. As previously discussed, seemingly everywhere where you and I intersect, the new form factor is the best tool for running Apple's apps. They're not going to make a computer that runs their competitors software better than their own.

Look, we get it. You just tossed a bunch of money into a 6,1 and need some validation to counteract what your eyes and common sense are telling you.

Here you go.

Great investment ! Wonderful machine ! Latest and greatest ! Money well spent !

Feel better?

 

[thefredelement]

Look, we get it. You just tossed a bunch of money into a 6,1 and need some validation to counteract what your eyes and common sense are telling you.

Here you go.

Great investment ! Wonderful machine ! Latest and greatest ! Money well spent !

Feel better?

I LOL b/c I'm not the one who ever felt bad...

I'm really excited I got the 6,1 - especially for what I paid for it, I asked for feedback here because this used to be a place where people could express their opinions and how they work with things without being attacked by a group of people who seemingly can't move on.

You really have to do what you have to do to be happy, if that's supporting soon to be obsolete hardware then that's cool, it looks like you like to just face-off with people who don't agree with you, call them condescending (speaking of, look at your post I'm quoting here - seriously?) and then not reply to their points in your post - but hey if trolling makes you happy who am I to argue.

 

[MacVidCards]

I LOL b/c I'm not the one who ever felt bad...

I'm really excited I got the 6,1 - especially for what I paid for it, I asked for feedback here because this used to be a place where people could express their opinions and how they work with things without being attacked by a group of people who seemingly can't move on.

You really have to do what you have to do to be happy, if that's supporting soon to be obsolete hardware then that's cool, it looks like you like to just face-off with people who don't agree with you, call them condescending (speaking of, look at your post I'm quoting here - seriously?) and then not reply to their points in your post - but hey if trolling makes you happy who am I to argue.

I'm sorry you feel that way. ENJOY YOUR MACHINE !

 

[zephonic]

So yes, we will keep telling the truth.

 

[AidenShaw]

<pic>

Why is the back side of the cylinder illuminated in orange? I sense falsehood.

 

[Hank Carter]

As was said in Shawshank, get busy living or get busy dying. If the apps you use are supported better elsewhere and that makes your job easier / better / more customizable / faster / has better warranty, etc. then you should use it there. As previously discussed, seemingly everywhere where you and I intersect, the new form factor is the best tool for running Apple's apps. They're not going to make a computer that runs their competitors software better than their own.

You are missing the point. I don't want to have to run Windows. I've been with Apple since the days of the Apple II and Mac 512kb. Windows is a train wreck for many of these content creation programs. Software like NUKE does not run as well on Windoze as it does on OS X or Linux. Windows network performance for large files sucks. It was designed to push little text files across a office network, not massive blocks of data like UNIX. I want Apple to go back to making real computers. I need a machine with fast dual XEON procs that I can stick two or four Titan cards in to run DaVinci Resolve or render in Octane. I want it in one sealed case so I can rack mount it and take it on the road or stack them in a machine room. I don't want to have to deal with the maintenance nightmare that is Windows. I don't want a machine that fries itself under sustained heavy load like the iMac and the D700 cards in the 6,1. If Apple wants to continue make the current trashcan that fine by me, but in addition give me a real damn professional machine with slots, a massive power supply and plenty of cooling. And put some damn ventilation slots in the iMac, Jony. It's a tool, not a fashion accessory.

 

[thefredelement]

You are missing the point. I don't want to have to run Windows. I've been with Apple since the days of the Apple II and Mac 512kb. Windows is a train wreck for many of these content creation programs. Software like NUKE does not run as well on Windoze as it does on OS X or Linux. Windows network performance for large files sucks. It was designed to push little text files across a network, not massive blocks of data like UNIX. I want Apple to go back to making real computers. I need a machine with fast dual XEON procs that I can stick two or four Titan cards in to run DaVinci Resolve or render in Octane. I want it in one sealed case so I can rack mount it and take it on the road or stack them in a machine room. I don't want to have to deal with the maintenance nightmare that is Windows. I don't want a machine that fries itself under sustained heavy load like the iMac and the D700 cards in the 6,1. If Apple wants to continue make the current trashcan that fine by me, but in addition give me a real damn professional machine with slots, a massive power supply and plenty of cooling. And put some damn ventilation slots in the iMac, Jony. It's a tool, not a fashion accessory.

I get what you're saying and I like the idea of having both, in a perfect world why not? I think maybe there would be some reservations into uncoupling the FCPX optimizations and also making the platform more easily adapted into excelling with a competitors software.

Out of curiosity, could you run a render slave 'nix workstation for what you need to do?

 

[Hank Carter]

I get what you're saying and I like the idea of having both, in a perfect world why not? I think maybe there would be some reservations into uncoupling the FCPX optimizations and also making the platform more easily adapted into excelling with a competitors software.

FCPX has very much fallen out of favor in the pro editing market. Premiere and Avid have filled the void since Apple dropped the ball. Believe it or not there still are a lot of people holding on to FCP7. A fear of losing FCPX is not the reason why people are not switching in droves to PC's. To tell the truth FCPX is barely a blip on the radar of heavy duty editing. People are putting up with the current MacPro limitations and keeping 5,1 boxes running, because they are absolutely loathe to switch to Windows. But sooner or later the day will come where they have no choice but to move to more powerful Windows boxes, because they simply will not be able to get their work done and meet deadlines. The 4k tidal wave is about to hit and anyone without a sledgehammer of a machine to push that much data around is going to get creamed. And that's not counting 6k from the Arri 65 camera and 6k/8k from RED.

Out of curiosity, could you run a render slave 'nix workstation for what you need to do?

Depends. For DaVinci Resolve the GPU cards have to physically be in your workstation. Programs like OCTANE can access GPU cards cross the network, but it's not as fast as simply having multiple cards in your local machine. These are setups for interactive color grading and 3d lighting.

Believe it or not there are people out there running DaVinci Resolve on Supermicro boxes with LINUX and 8 (!) 12GB Titan cards in a single workstation with two monster XEON CPU's. Apple isn't even in the running for machines like that.

 

[MacVidCards]

I think maybe there would be some reservations into uncoupling the FCPX optimizations and also making the platform more easily adapted into excelling with a competitors software.

This is the second or third time you have used this phrase and it has been running around in my mind as an example of what is wrong with nMP.

Apple used to make a $1,000 software package that competed with high end stuff from others, but they didn't try to DROWN the others out of the market.

I remember the first time I got Photoshop on a laptop. I had lied to a Production Designer and said I was good with PS to get the job. I had it on my Powerbook 1300c and figured that I would get through it, like I did with Excel. There I was one day in the office, he asked me to make some signs. Shockeroni when I tried to use it. The Art Dept. coord had to help me.

I quickly learned it after that but for a long time as an Art Dept person, my life was Excel & Photoshop. And they both ran pretty well considering that they were "competitors" software. (We certainly didn't look at it that way then) Adobe stuff was known to run on Windows, but no serious person I knew in LA at the time would have done so. And Apple didn't put up roadblocks to make them harder to use. Adobe & Apple felt like a team, making cool stuff for the cool folks who did creative work.

Meanwhile, Apple waters down FCP into a $300 Wedding Videographer's dream. And let's face it, at $300 this isn't a cash cow. They aren't building the UFO Campus on FCP-X dollars. They instantly INFURIATE the entire FCP world with iMovie+ then follow up with a watered down computer to run it on. In fact, a FCP-X console.

So the question is, if this software isn't important to them, why make life so difficult for Nvidia and Adobe? Since 2006 they have sprung the Intel switch, then the Cocao/Carbon thingy, then CUDA was gaining ground so it got knocked down to make rom for OpenCl, which now has been sidelined for Metal. If you were Adobe would you keep changing everything to Apple's whims? Rewriting code you still haven't fully debugged for Apple's last great Paradigm shift?

But again, why can't they just let Adobe write good software for their machines without switching paradigms every time Ive gets a knack for the new all colors?

And guys, all this "Metal is going to bring Heaven to us earthlings ! Peace on Earth ! Free Coca Cola for all! It's the end of all strife and suffering and will usher in an age of wonderfulness..." stuff is BORING. We have heard it about every new tech Apple has had for last ten years, Nothing ever gets finished. OpenGl has laid around half finished for EVER. CUDA started getting really useful so naturally Apple had to do their best to kill it.

What's wrong with just making things that work well?

 

[linuxcooldude]

Why is the back side of the cylinder illuminated in orange? I sense falsehood.

Probably because you have the triangle piece trying to jam it into the round & square hole.

 

[thefredelement]

This is the second or third time you have used this phrase and it has been running around in my mind as an example of what is wrong with nMP.

Apple used to make a $1,000 software package that competed with high end stuff from others, but they didn't try to DROWN the others out of the market.

I remember the first time I got Photoshop on a laptop. I had lied to a Production Designer and said I was good with PS to get the job. I had it on my Powerbook 1300c and figured that I would get through it, like I did with Excel. There I was one day in the office, he asked me to make some signs. Shockeroni when I tried to use it. The Art Dept. coord had to help me.

I quickly learned it after that but for a long time as an Art Dept person, my life was Excel & Photoshop. And they both ran pretty well considering that they were "competitors" software. (We certainly didn't look at it that way then) Adobe stuff was known to run on Windows, but no serious person I knew in LA at the time would have done so. And Apple didn't put up roadblocks to make them harder to use. Adobe & Apple felt like a team, making cool stuff for the cool folks who did creative work.

Meanwhile, Apple waters down FCP into a $300 Wedding Videographer's dream. And let's face it, at $300 this isn't a cash cow. They aren't building the UFO Campus on FCP-X dollars. They instantly INFURIATE the entire FCP world with iMovie+ then follow up with a watered down computer to run it on. In fact, a FCP-X console.

So the question is, if this software isn't important to them, why make life so difficult for Nvidia and Adobe? Since 2006 they have sprung the Intel switch, then the Cocao/Carbon thingy, then CUDA was gaining ground so it got knocked down to make rom for OpenCl, which now has been sidelined for Metal. If you were Adobe would you keep changing everything to Apple's whims? Rewriting code you still haven't fully debugged for Apple's last great Paradigm shift?

But again, why can't they just let Adobe write good software for their machines without switching paradigms every time Ive gets a knack for the new all colors?

And guys, all this "Metal is going to bring Heaven to us earthlings ! Peace on Earth ! Free Coca Cola for all! It's the end of all strife and suffering and will usher in an age of wonderfulness..." stuff is BORING. We have heard it about every new tech Apple has had for last ten years, Nothing ever gets finished. OpenGl has laid around half finished for EVER. CUDA started getting really useful so naturally Apple had to do their best to kill it.

What's wrong with just making things that work well?

Actually, I agree with what you said here entirely. (except for metal, I think it being their own implementation from the ground up is different) The relationship with Adobe seems strange, one keynote they show off Photoshop then they don't, then they do. They seem to pump their competitors on the App Store (Pixelmator, Affinity and until recently Sketch) but I think the demo iPad Pros run Adobe iPad apps.

They screwed up with FCPX. I think they are more geared toward adding things back into FCPX then (re)opening up their hardware platform. I can only try to guess at their motivation but I think it was to make it more accessible to everyone, which is probably better suited to iMovie. Maybe they thought something like, "wow, we've got all these people using iMovie but less than 25% use FCPX, lets make it look the same so everyone will use it".

You're right with this, Apple should be more Apple about making something that's better than anything else that's out there and let it compete directly. It feels like they used to be more up front about that kind of stuff. Who knows, maybe they're creating a modern FCS that'll blow the doors off of anything from anyone else to be released on a workstation with twin Titan class workstation cards.

I remember those days, Adobe on Mac was WAY faster/stable when compared to a windows box, it wasn't even funny. Illustrator or Photoshop on windows wouldn't even be done opening a file while work would have already started on Mac. Between that and Pro audio, that's what really made a Mac a Mac. Maybe they see all the hardware and software becoming so powerful they're trying to re-tool somehow to get back to what made them so attractive to pro video/audio people in the first place.

I don't think Apple can do away with their workstation/pro class, they make far too much money off of the people who use these tools to publish things onto their own platform.

 

[Riwam]

Maybe I am wrong but I think that everything was already told in this thread.

The nMP late 2013 could be much better but that can be said from every computer.
Apple's present software could gain a lot of redesigning it.
This also applies to every software in the world.
Microsoft acknowkedged this by proposing an ever updating Windows 10.
Maybe this is the way to follow although it also implies that users (common, final users or developers) become guinea pigs and...cheap ones since software companies pay them nothing!

I am not a great "knower" either about hardware or about sloftware.
I could never ever build my own workstation using all the wonderful, poweful, incredible, marvelous hundred-cores-CPUs and put into it countless world-blowing-GPUs.
Therefore I made a compromise.
I liked the nMP late 2013 and somehow managed to put together the money needed.
I like its shape, trash can or not trash can.
It takes little room on my table while the previos MP occupied one third of the room.
Should I have to take it or send it for repair, what was never necessary in 1 and 1/2 years, the weight and size of the package would not be much more than that of a 17" notebook.
When I had to take any previous MP for repair I needed the help of a young and very strong friend and of course a car with a trunk large enough for the huge package.
As to moving big files to any external HD, it took me ages with its native USB2 or Firewire 800.
My added third part cards for eSata and USB3 made me much more sorrows, bugs and difficulties that those they were supposed to solve.

The nMP has USB3, not the fastest one but faster as my previous USB2.
If I had the money I would certainly use Thunderbolt for such tasks, but I cannot afford it.

This computer is very quiet and never gets too hot and I like both features.

So yes, it could be built better, much better... but not by me!
It suits my (modest) needs and besides my still unresolved problems if I try to upgrade it to OSX 10.11, I have no reason to complain.
Apple Care is just there only to let me sleep quieter as long as it lasts.

Making compromises seems the way the world and human kind work.
If the thread starter finds he did the right choice (my own conclusion when i was the one who had to decide) let's accept it as a very, happy and good situation without endless arguments.

I see little sense to add more and mote posts against that decision, which anyhow...was already taken.
"To live and let live" includes "to use and let use any computer" IMHO
Ed

 

[pat500000]

Geez, sorry for posting here about buying a MP . My other thread was comparing a 2013 MP to a 2015 iMac.

The 4,1 is obsolete and therefore I couldn't get any replacement parts if needed. It was also a losing proposition value wise both in terms of holding onto it and in terms of upgrading it.

I write software using Xcode so I can't switch to Windows.

The 2013 nMP, an 8 core, probably fits my needs nicely - I just don't want to get fleeced value wise so I'm attempting to solicit opinions as far as value and if it's "crazy" to buy a refurb 2013? I've been trying to research, which seems more like trying my hand at fortune telling, and my only thoughts are once the e5 v4 is in circulation the cost of the 2013 Mac Pro may be out of line with what the e5 v2 is worth.

Yeah 8 core is good. You should get it if it meets your need. Don't let others convince you otherwise.