Are we sure this is the case with OSX. In Windows and Nvidia Cuda based cards, they do not need to be in SLI or hooked up to a monitor for the software apps to use them (e.g. Vray RT on 3DSMax), they just need to be in a slot, thats it.
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Crossfire for nMP on Windows / Boot Camp
- Thread starter drunkn
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Are we sure this is the case with OSX. In Windows and Nvidia Cuda based cards, they do not need to be in SLI or hooked up to a monitor for the software apps to use them (e.g. Vray RT on 3DSMax), they just need to be in a slot, thats it.
And other manufacturers don't?
I really don't know or care, I would assume you're right--that other manufacturers don't aim cooling at the boost clock. What makes this important is Apple set the base clock on the D700 ridiculously low and advertised 7TFLOPS of GPU performance almost certainly based on the 850mhz boost clock. Therefore many people (including the person I was replying to) are expecting sustained boost performance.
The D700 base clock of 650mhz is ~30% lower than the base clock of the 280X and W9000 which it is continually compared to by bloggers and users on this forum. Only with benchmarks (hot benchmarks, specifically) will we really get a grasp on how fast these cards are.
It's possible they run at max boost all the time, I highly doubt it though.
I think he means the "magic software tweaks" that make a FirePro so amazing at certain professional apps in Windows are what really make the FirePro more expensive (and worth the money). We're talking about a price difference of almost 10x ($3,500 for W9000 vs $420 For 280X/7970)
I think the only way to truly know is to test the Pro apps in Windows. As you say, it says "FireGL" in the system settings, which is a good sign.
I believe you will be hard pressed to find any Radeon HD 7970 or Radeon HD 280X with 6GB of RAM.
I copied your text, added "6GB", pressed enter and in 2 clicks had one in my amazon basket. So easier than you thought I guess.
And other manufacturers don't?
I believe what he is referring to is under clocking for stability.
Not throttling. Heat is a major issue how turbo boost works, and why CPUs throttle. In that case, Apples thin slick hardware do add to the woes. Though this will only impact the users pushing thier gear to the max.
The D300-700 look like they are underclocked. I guess we will know if these are underclocked GPUs, or a whole new line.
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First search result from google. took 5 secs, including copy and paste.
http://www.sapphiretech.com/presentation/product/product_index.aspx?pid=1483&lid=1
That's a lot of us I assume, considering this is a mostly a GPU centric workstation. I for one render hours/days at a time and expect a pro workstation to cope with that without breaking a sweat.
The base clock isn't terribly important, but the boost clock is. The boost clock on the D700 is worse, but not insanely so.
Kind of wonder just how long Apple expects the illusion of FirePro without FirePro features to last.
D300 gimped 2GB of VRAM.
D500 gimped to minimal Tahiti , 1GB of VRAM , and ECC.
D700 gimped ECC
There isn't a single card they didn't partially kneecap feature wise. Sure they are cheaper but also traded off performance with limited clock speeds. Remove the other features and there are little to no differences between the mainstream cards. (besides that the mainstreams ones physically just don't fit).
Seems like the biggest, consistent FirePro differentiator now appears is BootCamp FirePro drivers for Windows. Leading with a Windows feature as primary feature? Running close behind is Crossfire in Windows as a "feature".
Doubling down on narrowing to just the video ghetto (where folks will ignore the loss in substance ) isn't going to help the Mac Pro long term.
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Forgive my ignorance here but can't you just count the chips on a ram stick and if it has an odd number then that odd one is the Error Correcting Chip?
http://www.designbolts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/New-Apple-mac-pro-Memory.jpg
looking at this pic, there are 19 chips.
EDIT: Ooops, we need to examine the GPU not the ram. My bad. Any close up shots of it?
http://www.designbolts.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/New-Apple-mac-pro-Memory.jpg
looking at this pic, there are 19 chips.
EDIT: Ooops, we need to examine the GPU not the ram. My bad. Any close up shots of it?
I agree, I am a little disappointed with the D700, I was not expecting the full performance of the similar W9000, however I was expecting the top of the line card to have ECC memory, honestly I cannot see the cost savings personally.
I think Apple Jumped the Shark with the D700, completely missed opportunity, not to totally disenfranchise Apple, the MacPro is an awesome machine, however cutting silly corners like no ECC memory chips on something that is marketed as a FirePro... nonsense.
My god - guys if the system is not for your taste get some other system. You sound like little kids whining in the supermarket to get some candy...
Uh you do know there's a ridiculous shortage of video cards at the moment because of the non-ASIC cryptocurrency mining, right?
2 months ago I found 4 different models of 6GB 7970 on newegg.
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Do you really think the people buying the nMP now care? Apart from a handful of applications, a lot of the performance is still unknown.
People buying it are primarily enthusiasts and amateur photographers/videographers/prosumers.
A lot are just buying it because they have a lot of money and it looks cool.
Look at this ad. Definitely not targeted at Pros who want specific and powerful features in a computer, just lovers of sleek-looking appliances. Someone should do this kind of commercial with a $500 toaster oven.
It is worse than that. ECC is implemented by the GPU package's memory controller. Apple is making you buy the hardware to do ECC ... you just can't use it.
I'm not sure if W9000 6GB VRAM is "raw" or with ECC enabled. In the latter case there is a bit more VRAM memory present to hold the checksum data. So those "extra" RAM chips would cost more, but otherwise there isn't a "more expensive RAM chip" issue here at all. It is basically disabling what is already there in what you bought. ( unless what really buying is the GPU package with it not enabled and huffing and puffing about getting the FirePro variant. )
Some folks don't want it on. However, it is rather odd to be pitching it as a GPGPU system for accurate science simulations and chucking ECC. AMD tried that stunt of blowing off ECC with their previous generation FirePro cards. They failed big time in those. Nvidia's early generation GPGPU cards... same bonehead move for this target market. Or the "we don't need no ECC" experience with the SuperComputer cluster at VA Tech ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_X_(computing)#Upgrade_to_Server-Grade_Parts
It is one thing to be somewhat clueless and walk into a wall. It quite another to watch someone else do it and repeat the exact same mistake.
I agree with you about the issue with scientific calculations.
The lack of ECC is going to effect a TINY percentage, possibly even less than 1% of the people that were looking at buying this thing. For content creation, it's a non issue.
There are tradeoffs with ECC, such as lower memory throughput.
What I do find interesting, going slightly back on topic here.. Is that whatever memory controller this card is using isn't what ever is on the W9000 if there isn't ECC support. It's not the card people thought it was (9000, or 7970) repackaged. It seems to truly be out there on it's own.
Crossfire support may be over PCI?.....
Extensive currency/monetary calculations with no ECC... *chuckle* Yeah that's where I want my money encoded.
This initial demand bubble is immaterial to the long term success of the Mac Pro. The vast majority of buyers are waiting for more "knowns" before dropping tons on money on these systems.
That is almost clearly wrong. It is trivial to find non amateurs in the comments from folks who bought them. I grant that the ratio of "that's cool" versus "tool for work" is probably higher in this initial bubble, but those folks aren't enough to keep a decent factory of the size Apple has going all year.
That ad isn't running widely now. It is largely a gimmick in the interim when Apple had nothing to talk about of substance. Granted it ran longer than that stupid, misguided Apple Genius "Customer has fallen and can't get up" ad, but that one isn't going to go on the 10 list of on well thought out and on target Apple ads.
The marketing around the Mac Pro has been pretty spotty. From crotch grabbing posturing ("can't innovate my ass") , to the early web page hype about Thunderbolt being fastest I/O around ( which it is plainly not to anyone with a clue about high speed I/O ... probably why it isn't in web text now because someone internal told them how absurd that was ) , to this MTV like concept/hype ad, to their
"...Use OpenCL to incorporate advanced numerical and data analytics features, perform cutting-edge image and media processing, and deliver accurate physics simulations. ..."
when they kneecapped the simulation and analytics because went cheap on the features that exist in the chip they are selling.
Apple's marketing stuff have a healthy dose of hyperbole is hardly new though. It is their gimmick at this point so they stick to it. I highly doubt they really think they are fooling anyone with a clue.
At the price points Apple is charging and the base entry price hike, they are though generally targeting this at folks who generate revenue with the Mac Pro. Sure there are some "that's cool" folks but they aren't the primary target.
They are dumping targeting some of the old targeted group ( e.g., dual CPU folks who still need duals), but just because those folks are dropped doesn't mean they dropping all "Pros" who need computation horsepower. This system has horsepower.
I'm surprised that apparently the D700 isn't ECC because frankly, isn't 6GB a little obscene? When you've got that much why not make it 5 or whatever with the ECC enabled?
Because the folks who want to run bootcamp firePro in crossfire mode is such a huge percentage....
It is smaller because drawing a circle only around content creators and saying the folks manage to happen to snag just outside are small. It is not the case that is a small set of folks. Size wise that group is a very sizable fraction (if not larger) than the content creater set. The number of engineers , scientists , folks running large analystics , etc. is not so small if normalzed against size of content creators.
This new design already walks away from part of the old targeted market due to hardware left out ( dual CPU sockets). Here the hardware is acutally present and they still walking away. That is rather mysterious. Especially when Mac Pro appeared to be on chopping block because "nobody is buying it".
Marginally lower. Ivy Bridge chips can encode AES at memory speeds. ( if have more AES encoding streams through cores than memory controllers can actually choke the memory subsystem. ) Not sure why ECC would be a bigger deal. An extra cycle or to load store but once streaming the throughput impact once going shouldn't be that high is pipe-lining the work.
The 7970 doesn't have ECC enabled. (it is switched off). It is switched on for W9000. It is same basic core die with different parts turned off/on. There is nothing "new" needed other than turning it on or off.
But switched off means "Not FirePro" which begs the question of why paying FirePro premium when Apple is switching off all the differences.
It smells of the tactic of standing next to the "Fat Lady" in the circus sideshow to look "thinner than her" than a value add proposition. It is just hand waving mainstream cards with some facade drivers in bootcamp it is alot more smoke than substance.
Folk keep opening the door on the notion that this are extra special custom GPU dies ... Little so far is indicative of that. Chopped down ECC doesn't particularly motivate that.
Easiest thing for Apple to do if willing to design specific connectors just for this Mac Pro and GPU card combo is just connect them.
Doing the constant stream of ECC computations consumes power and Apple is perhaps tossing it because they are already Scrooge McDuck on power budget already. It wouldn't be a huge difference, but it appears they are trying run with extreme tight budgets.
Since when did this become the distinction?
None of AMDs firepros had ECC until the W9000. And they continue to sell a bunch of firepro cards without ECC.
The distinction with the FirePros has typically been the drivers. They usually unlock a few new features. You're also paying for the certification with different software packages.
The value of ECC is... interesting? It seems like if you were building a cluster, it would be more important.
The complaining on this thread amuses me. The cards are a good deal, even if they're not exactly W9000s. And everyone here on this forum likely bought Mac Pros for years without ECC memory.
4K Crossfire
4K Crossfire is broken under dual dXXX cards for gaming. See the anandtech review. For the 1st time in 10 years, Hackintosh here I come!
4K Crossfire is broken under dual dXXX cards for gaming. See the anandtech review. For the 1st time in 10 years, Hackintosh here I come!