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I absolutely could see why a chip producer would go after a bigger piece of the pie forcing Apple to go elsewhere in the same way one can see how these past experiences of uneven dependence influenced Apples push towards internalized, self contained, and controlled AS.

There's something else that happened on our way to Apple Silicon: iPhone.

Intel ruled the CPU world with an iron fist for a few decades, and were able to maintain it because they had 3 key advantages: backward compatibility, process leadership, and boatloads of money to fund an elite design team. This combination has kept them ahead and prevented anyone from seriously considering alternatives. Backwards compatibility has kept the bulk of the Wintel market in Intel's pocket, this funded an R&D operation that could make the best of an archaic and inefficient architecture, and the fact that Intel always had a superior process made up the rest.

PowerPC may have been a better CPU architecture and, if given the budget Intel had, might have continued to outperform x86-- but it didn't run Windows (ignoring the Windows NT experiment of the 90's), so it was never going to get the same revenue.

AMD was first to 64bit when Intel got their ties stuck in the thresher of Itanium, but Intel took the initial setback and just started using their process advantage to ramp up clock speeds until they clawed their way back.

Intel never really addressed the embedded/mobile market. I think they saw it as low margin, low performance. They'd had licenses for some of the best performing Arm variants in the past, but never capitalized on them and sold the IP. They still have Arm licenses that they use for some of the MobileEye and FPGA stuff, but they never worked to establish a beachhead in embedded and that left them with a soft underbelly that Apple exposed.


When iPhone happened, Apple was motivated to build a high performance, low power processor so they went back to what they started with Newton: Arm. But Apple sold a lot of iPhones. Crazy numbers of iPhones. I'd have to go back and check the numbers, but I'm pretty sure Apple has been making more A-series processors than Intel has been making x86 processors. And they're doing it at a high margin.

Lots of processors at a high margin translates to an R&D budget that can start to outstrip Intel.

It has also helped Apple build critical partnerships with suppliers, in particular with TSMC. Building supplier partnerships is one of Apple's great strengths. While Intel keeps stepping on their tail, TSMC has been delivering on generation after generation, so Intel has lost their process advantage. Even Intel is farming work out to TSMC.

And Apple showed us something else: Arm, with some clever tweaks, can run translated x86 code about as fast as x86 runs it native. The backwards compatibility challenge isn't as scary as the industry thought. This isn't a huge surprise, really. The whole reason Apple pulled Arm out of Acorn into a JV was because at the time Acorns RISC processor was able to emulate MacOS faster than it ran natively, and without running hot.

The sheer scale of iPhone development is what made it possible for someone outside the x86 ecosystem to finally compete head to head with Intel on processors. With those three advantages, there's no reason for Apple to continue using x86. Add to it that the ability to create custom logic for system functions and to finally be able to move away from Intel's "everything on the CPU" mentality is a perfect fit for Apple's system level approach.

I'm sure Apple is quite happy to keep on the Apple Silicon roadmap, but I also expect that as soon as something makes it the less preferable option they'll pivot again. If TSMC fails to execute for whatever reason, I'd expect Apple to move elsewhere and to do it quickly. Something may come down the tech highway that Apple isn't positioned to do in house-- quantum computing, for illustration sake, might send them back to working with IBM, or whoever.

This is what I've come to expect. At every moment, Apple will make the best product they can and they'll make it as easy as they can for people to go forward, but they're not all that concerned about looking backward. Carrying forward the burdens of the past just slows down the future.
 
Looking back the transition was lightning fast, and the drop of support for PowerPC was a slap in the face. Look at now, how long have we been switching to Arm / Apple processors, yet still have support for Intel machines?

Hrm. Let’s see:

Intel announced June 2005. Mac OS X 10.5.8 sent out August 2009, excluding security updates. So… 4 years, 2 months.

Silicon announced November June 2020. For Silicon to exceed the window of transition for the Intel switch, Sonoma’s successor will need to be Intel-compatible and/or will need to be at its final update, excluding security updates, by no sooner than January 2025 August 2024.


[note: I made some obvious corrections.]

Looks like they may have learned their lesson a bit on this.

We’ll see. 🧛‍♀️
 
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Mac OSX's obnoxious productivity-killing mouse acceleration didn't help, and the fact that there weren't any Linux operating systems that could run 100% on the hardware was the cherry on top.

It sounds like your beef is with the OS, not the processor and you consider the computer a computer to be a commodity box while a Mac is the combination of hardware and software.

I can personally guarantee that you'll notice a degree-of-magnitude difference in how quickly and effortlessly the task can be done without OSX's stupendously awful mouse acceleration slowing you down

And it sounds like your distaste for the OS has prevented you from using it enough to get used to the pointer hardware.

Like a good fighter jet, its agility and performance comes from learning to control a fundamentally unstable thing.
 
I (gladly) dropped USD3K on the 2006 MP 1,1, the moment it was announced.

This was my first "Mac", and She served me well for many years.

I'm in the "pay-to-play" Camp, so there were no hoodwinks in that equation ;)
 
It sounds like your beef is with the OS, not the processor

It's with OSX too, for sure, but the computer as a whole was a miserable performer even at basic stuff like web browsing. Pretty case, performative spaceheater, but little more.

...you consider the computer a computer to be a commodity box while a Mac is the combination of hardware and software.

If that's not the most meaninglessly sanctimonious pile of manure I've ever heard, then I don't know what is. The computer is a "commodity box," if you want to call it that, whose job is to look good, perform well, and help me operate in a way that is efficient. My iMac is probably one of my favorite computers that I use on a regular basis, and the ability to run an operating system (Windows) that enhances my productivity rather than diminishes it (Linux or OSX) is a massive part of why it is useful to me. And that's in spite of the varied and numerous flaws inherent with the build of Windows that it's running.

And it sounds like your distaste for the OS has prevented you from using it enough to get used to the pointer hardware.

Quite the opposite actually.

Like a good fighter jet, its agility and performance comes from learning to control a fundamentally unstable thing.

Except when the controls are that ass-backwards, there is no "learning to control" them. It's just fundamentally counter to how the human brain works. We know because there were conclusive and irrefutable scientific studies done on this. Even if that was true, imagine how much more agility and performance could come from learning to control something that isn't fighting you. Sully did a great job landing that airplane on the Hudson River, but it sure would've been better if the hardware hadn't failed in a way that threatened the very lives of a great many people.
 
Except when the controls are that ass-backwards, there is no "learning to control" them. It's just fundamentally counter to how the human brain works.

When I read this, the first thing which came to mind to fits that description was Apple introduction of “““natural””” scrolling with Lion.

As you also made mention of aircraft, the notion of “pulling up the stick” — to pull altitude control rearward, closer to the body — is to increase altitude. [disclosure: I am not a pilot and I only rarely have tried out flight simulator consoles.] Were Apple’s “natural scrolling” principles applied to aircraft, increasing altitude would mean to, counter-intuitively, push the control toward the instruments since, as seen from above the controller, that would constitute “upward”. Except it doesn’t.

Sorry, just a thought unrelated to what you and Analog Kid are discussing.
 
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When I read this, the first thing which came to mind to fits that description was Apple introduction of “““natural””” scrolling with Lion.

As you also made mention of aircraft, the notion of “pulling up the stick” — to pull altitude control rearward, closer to the body — is to increase altitude. [disclosure: I am not a pilot and I only rarely have tried out flight simulator consoles.] Were Apple’s “natural scrolling” principles applied to aircraft, increasing altitude would mean to, counter-intuitively, push the control toward the instruments since, as seen from above the controller, that would constitute “upward”. Except it doesn’t.

Sorry, just a thought unrelated to what you and Analog Kid are discussing.

No need to apologize because that's another great example. The only difference is that the inverted scrolling can be turned off in both OSX and Windows (although OSX's obnoxious and unnatural pointer acceleration seems to apply to scrolling as well in an effort to make it as frustrating as humanly possible even in the forward direction). "Natural scrolling," geesh; what a horrifically spectacular dystopian euphemism.
 
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If you are genuinely productive using OSX, it's in spite of the mouse acceleration, and not because of it. I can assure you of that. If you don't believe me, test the same mouse-heavy activity (web-browsing, video editing, document publishing; it doesn't really matter) under identical conditions on OSX and then Windows using the same mouse and keyboard, and the same mouse sensitivity settings. I can personally guarantee that you'll notice a degree-of-magnitude difference in how quickly and effortlessly the task can be done without OSX's stupendously awful mouse acceleration slowing you down (and no cheating by using SmoothMouse).
Funny thing, maybe some of us just either have different preferences or perhaps there is actually something to OS X/macOS mouse acceleration.

I find I am more productive for any routine task-web browsing, document creation/editing, photo editing, and anything else I do with OS X mouse acceleration. In fact, I find it particularly beneficial for photo editing since I can easily jump around to different parts of the image and after after well over a decade can then make use of the precision slow mouse movement offer me.

I do not THINK about OS X mouse acceleration until someone else makes a big deal about it or when I try to accomplish a similar task in Windows, then I realize just how intuitive and valuable I find OS X acceleration.

That's just me, though, but it works for me.

(natural scrolling is a different issue, and it's the first thing I change on a fresh install of 10.7+)
 
If you are genuinely productive using OSX, it's in spite of the mouse acceleration, and not because of it. I can assure you of that. If you don't believe me, test the same mouse-heavy activity (web-browsing, video editing, document publishing; it doesn't really matter) under identical conditions on OSX and then Windows using the same mouse and keyboard, and the same mouse sensitivity settings. I can personally guarantee that you'll notice a degree-of-magnitude difference in how quickly and effortlessly the task can be done without OSX's stupendously awful mouse acceleration slowing you down (and no cheating by using SmoothMouse).
I run macOS, Windows and Ubuntu Linux at home and have no problems switching between the three OSes, just as I have no problem going from mouse to trackpad to Wacom tablet and back. My muscle memory just adjusts, and I would assume it's the same for anyone who works cross-systems or cross-platform. If you use the tool enough you learn how to use the tool and don't even think about it.
 
Funny thing, maybe some of us just either have different preferences or perhaps there is actually something to OS X/macOS mouse acceleration.

I find I am more productive for any routine task-web browsing, document creation/editing, photo editing, and anything else I do with OS X mouse acceleration. In fact, I find it particularly beneficial for photo editing since I can easily jump around to different parts of the image and after after well over a decade can then make use of the precision slow mouse movement offer me.

I do not THINK about OS X mouse acceleration until someone else makes a big deal about it or when I try to accomplish a similar task in Windows, then I realize just how intuitive and valuable I find OS X acceleration.

That's just me, though, but it works for me.

(natural scrolling is a different issue, and it's the first thing I change on a fresh install of 10.7+)
If that's actually the case, (and I'm highly skeptical of it) then you're definitely in a tiny minority. In the same way that some people were better at shifting a model-T in the days before before the "modern" shifting paradigm became commonplace, there may be some talented individuals who have retrained their brain so that they can run the same tasks with nearly equal efficiency, either due to sheer skill or to lack of experience on the newer technology.

However, I would refuse to believe even that unless you furnished some hard numbers (timings of identical tasks being run on identical software using the same mouse with equivalent mouse sensitivity settings under both operating systems) to prove otherwise. Even then, it could be explained by your precision mousing skills being low in general.

I run macOS, Windows and Ubuntu Linux at home and have no problems switching between the three OSes, just as I have no problem going from mouse to trackpad to Wacom tablet and back. My muscle memory just adjusts, and I would assume it's the same for anyone who works cross-systems or cross-platform. If you use the tool enough you learn how to use the tool and don't even think about it.
That applies to some extent for any similar toolset. However, there's simply no way that you can be more efficient with the one that is fighting you than the one that is helping you (or even equally efficient) unless you're particularly bad at mousing all around. My aforementioned challenge still stands. Once you actually time it, be prepared to see a 20-40% difference in the amount of time required to complete the task.
 
Once you actually time it, be prepared to see a 20-40% difference in the amount of time required to complete the task.
Presumably you’ve already done your own precision tests on the same hardware across Mac and Windows systems for this alleged mouse acceleration superiority?

Or is it just a subjective impression - like mine and @bunnspecial ’s but somehow elevated as an irrefutable fact?
 
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The degree to which some contributors 'elevate' personal opinion to the status of factual statement is what makes just about any discussion of Mac v Windows v Linux totally pointless.

These claims that Linux or Windows are so superior to Mac systems flies in the face of the fact that many people use, have used and/or continue to use Macs, by choice, productively, for the work they do or the uses they need a system to be put to. Why? Because they're all stupid or liars? Because they like dragging a mouse 'differently'? Please.

This kind of argument is really inane. Computers are simply tools to get things done, and whichever tool suits each and every one of us is absolutely what is 'best'. Trying to factualise personal preference and impose it on others doesn't change that fact.

I say that as a user of Macs, Windows PCs and Linux systems. DOS too.
 
I had the 12-inch Power Book at the time, and switched to one of the original intel 15-inch MacBook Pros as soon as I could afford to.

I think I owned 4 intel MacBook Pros between then and M1.

I wouldn't say I felt hoodwinked, any more than I felt hoodwinked when the M1 transition was announced 6 months after getting my 2019 16-inch MacBook Pro. That machine was okay for the years I had it, and allowed the M series to mature, and all the software I need to go native, although videos I saw showed Rosetta seemingly running everything more efficiently than the intel machine I had, so I was kinda gagging to make the transition myself. (Hello, M3 Pro!)
 
Not at all - I was disappointed at how the PowerPC started off scorchingly fast but had really seemed to plateau as Intel caught up.

In terms of personal gear, at that point I was alternating years upgrading my Mac and PC laptops, so I was using the 1.5GHz 12" G4 PowerBook ... and then got the 2GHz dual core Intel PowerBook. It was definitely an immediate "well, I guess that was the right decision by Apple" moment.
 
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If that's actually the case, (and I'm highly skeptical of it) then you're definitely in a tiny minority. In the same way that some people were better at shifting a model-T in the days before before the "modern" shifting paradigm became commonplace, there may be some talented individuals who have retrained their brain so that they can run the same tasks with nearly equal efficiency, either due to sheer skill or to lack of experience on the newer technology.

However, I would refuse to believe even that unless you furnished some hard numbers (timings of identical tasks being run on identical software using the same mouse with equivalent mouse sensitivity settings under both operating systems) to prove otherwise. Even then, it could be explained by your precision mousing skills being low in general.

Have I timed individual tasks? No

Yes, this is a subjective perspective, but at the end of the day as well I KNOW how OS X/macOS acceleration works and its operation to me is so intuitive that I do not think about it. I get results, and I do so faster than having to consciously think about how my mouse is operating.

You're the one making the assertion, though, and you have stated it factually. Would you care to provide hard data showing the same users completing the same tasks using different mouse acceleration profiles or without acceleration? If it's such an overwhelming difference as you claim, surely the data and human interface studies are out there. For that matter, I can't imagine that Apple hasn't conducted them.

The Model T analogy is an interesting one. I have pretty limited wheel time in a single Model T, and I do find them clunky to drive. At the same time, for a two speed(+reverse) transmission there's a lot to be said for the Model T's control layout. I wouldn't be surprised if someone proficient with a Model T could actually drive and shift one faster than could anyone driving a two speed clutch+stick transmission. Shifting a Model T from low to high gear involves a single action(lifting a pedal) whereas a conventional transmission requires pressing the clutch, moving the stick, and then releasing the clutch. What can be really impressive is watching a Model T driver go from reverse to forward or the other way around. Some will drop one into neutral, perhaps use the brakes to slow down, but then use the forward low or reverse band to slow the rest of the way then take off with no perceptible stop. Compare that to pressing the clutch, shifting to neutral, releasing the clutch, slowing to a stop with the brakes, pressing the clutch, shifting into gear, and then releasing the clutch.

Once you throw more than two forward gears in, the Model T controls start to fall apart, but they worked for the time and, again, people who could use them could REALLY use them.
 
I run macOS, Windows and Ubuntu Linux at home and have no problems switching between the three OSes, just as I have no problem going from mouse to trackpad to Wacom tablet and back. My muscle memory just adjusts, and I would assume it's the same for anyone who works cross-systems or cross-platform. If you use the tool enough you learn how to use the tool and don't even think about it.
Same here, apart from the Wacom tablet.

No idea what Member2010 is on about, sounds like a skill issue.
 
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If that's actually the case, (and I'm highly skeptical of it) then you're definitely in a tiny minority. In the same way that some people were better at shifting a model-T in the days before before the "modern" shifting paradigm became commonplace, there may be some talented individuals who have retrained their brain so that they can run the same tasks with nearly equal efficiency, either due to sheer skill or to lack of experience on the newer technology.

However, I would refuse to believe even that unless you furnished some hard numbers (timings of identical tasks being run on identical software using the same mouse with equivalent mouse sensitivity settings under both operating systems) to prove otherwise. Even then, it could be explained by your precision mousing skills being low in general.


That applies to some extent for any similar toolset. However, there's simply no way that you can be more efficient with the one that is fighting you than the one that is helping you (or even equally efficient) unless you're particularly bad at mousing all around. My aforementioned challenge still stands. Once you actually time it, be prepared to see a 20-40% difference in the amount of time required to complete the task.

You know, before you raised this ado about pointer acceleration, I first had to remember what it was and why it mattered.

Then I remembered the jarring experience of using a trackpad, mouse, or pointer nub (on a ThinkPad) with Windows. Small movements suddenly become great. The means to move a pointer laterally across a landscape display is either too fast or a total laggard.

The only reason I am left left to remember how pointer acceleration is a thing is whenever I install the .prefPane for a Microsoft Intellipoint trackball I still use (albeit exclusively for DJing), there are setting overrides within that system preferences calling out, explicitly, pointer acceleration overriding the system (and how that override can be adjusted). In it, the pointer acceleration control can be adjusted specifically for the trackball, and I usually do a bit of that each time I configure the trackball for a new system.

My point (:: please clap::): the notion of pointer acceleration has a firm place within a post-mouse realm, wherein most pointer movement comes not from moving one’s entire forearm with a pointing device (i.e., mouse), but rather, with wrist-level, fingers-level (plural), or finger-level (singular) control.

I am reminded of pointer acceleration (even without the verbal language of “acceleration” popping into mind) whenever I drop into a Linux build I have, and I am not fond of the adjustment, particularly when movement of scrolling needs to be fine for minimal movements (very handy when working with, say, vectors in Illustrator, raster images in Photoshop, non-linear audio in all manner of utilities, and so on). On the Linux side, this means having to mentally readjust for image processing tasks or fine-selection tasks in gqrx. The absence of pointer acceleration in these use-cases is vexatious at best, odious at worst.

I also was unaware pointer acceleration was an Apple invention. But unlike other, far more consequential disruptions in UX/HID, such as that completely illogical “natural scrolling” rolled out with Lion, pointer acceleration is so subtle, so intuitive, that if one doesn’t like it, they can simply turn it off, one and done:

defaults write .GlobalPreferences com.apple.mouse.scaling -1
defaults write .GlobalPreferences com.apple.trackpad.scaling -1



I’m now aware pointer acceleration is anathema to gamers. Spoiler: I’m not a gamer, but I can make pew!-pew! noises and sort of sound like one. ;)

Also: pointer acceleration existed on PowerPC Macs, so I’m not sure how this annoynace ties in with the original topic’s question.
 
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Presumably you’ve already done your own precision tests on the same hardware across Mac and Windows systems for this alleged mouse acceleration superiority?...

Yes. As a matter of fact, I have. That's how I know.

Have I timed individual tasks? No

Didn't think so.

Yes, this is a subjective perspective...

No, it's not. I've personally measured it. The modern Windows mouse acceleration algorithm was developed with some pretty serious research behind it, complete with ballistics!

...
I also was unaware pointer acceleration was an Apple invention. But unlike other, far more consequential disruptions in UX/HID, such as that completely illogical “natural scrolling” rolled out with Lion, pointer acceleration is so subtle, so intuitive, that if one doesn’t like it, they can simply turn it off, one and done:

defaults write .GlobalPreferences com.apple.mouse.scaling -1
defaults write .GlobalPreferences com.apple.trackpad.scaling -1



I’m now aware pointer acceleration is anathema to gamers. Spoiler: I’m not a gamer, but I can make pew!-pew! noises and sort of sound like one. ;)

Also: pointer acceleration existed on PowerPC Macs, so I’m not sure how this annoynace ties in with the original topic’s question.

Handful of things here:
1. Pointer acceleration was not an Apple invention, and I'm pretty sure nobody said that it was.
2. Turning off mouse acceleration in any operating system is not a solution to the bad mouse acceleration problem, and never has been.
3. I don't consider myself to be a gamer either, and when I do participate, it's with a controller, so the impact of mouse acceleration is a moot point.
 
I thought that was excellent, the last MacBook Pro I got recently is a i7 and could have got a M, think is being able to dual boot is worth its weight in gold
 
Handful of things here:
1. Pointer acceleration was not an Apple invention, and I'm pretty sure nobody said that it was.

This is a thread topical to the Apple announcement in 2005 to transition to Intel CPUs. Your grievances over pointer acceleration are topical here how exactly?

2. Turning off mouse acceleration in any operating system is not a solution to the bad mouse acceleration problem, and never has been.

Are you arguing that there is a paradigm around pointer acceleration which should be quashed forthwith from pointer-based UIs? I can’t really come to another conclusion here, based on your persistent thesis.


3. I don't consider myself to be a gamer either, and when I do participate, it's with a controller, so the impact of mouse acceleration is a moot point.

Fair enough. Gamers have, in past accounts, been a key consumer group who’ve expressed frustration with pointer/HID acceleration.

Bringing me back to my first question: why is your grievance relevant to this discussion topic? I conjecture it isn’t.
 
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That applies to some extent for any similar toolset. However, there's simply no way that you can be more efficient with the one that is fighting you than the one that is helping you (or even equally efficient) unless you're particularly bad at mousing all around. My aforementioned challenge still stands. Once you actually time it, be prepared to see a 20-40% difference in the amount of time required to complete the task.
I have been moving back and forth between operating systems for literally decades with no problems. Currently typing this on my Linux box while waiting for someone to answer a question so I can go back to my MBP. Wacom tablet on the MBP and mouse on Linux work just fine.

This sounds like something particular to you that you've decided affects everyone. I'm reminded about the old saying that a poor craftsman blames the tools.
 
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No, it's not. I've personally measured it. The modern Windows mouse acceleration algorithm was developed with some pretty serious research behind it, complete with ballistics!
So let’s see the numbers.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that even if you, individually, can show a difference, that's not sufficient to make the sweeping generalizations you have made. All that means is that Windows mouse acceleration works better for you. If a handful, dozens, hundreds of users in controlled tests reach the same result, you would have a basis to make the claim of it being universally better.

And we come full circle again-I would never dispute you claiming that it works better for you. Your stating it works better for you does not invalidate those of us saying OS X/macOS works better for us, however.

This is how research works, BTW. Try to publish research based on a single data set, especially if you are collecting data about your own habits and drawing a sweeping conclusion, you'd be laughed out of anywhere you tried to publish it.

As to your archived link-first of all, I'm pretty sure that "Ballistics" is just the term that MS uses, or at least once used, for their mouse acceleration algorithms. At least that's how I read that page. Second, is that your support for saying there's "serious research" behind it? I'm not doubting that MS spent a lot of time developing it and didn't just do it blindly, but that page just describes how it works, not the WHY of it working the way it does. I'm sure the "why" information exists, but understandably Microsoft probably doesn't want the details publicly known(although I'd be really interested in seeing them). Do you really think Apple hasn't UI studies to arrive at their current algorithms?
 
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