Disabled US Blood Oxygen Function [MERGED]

[deeddawg]

I think Apple will pay the money to buy Masimo or there patents as they paid Intel $1 Billion for there portfolio of modem patents. [...] I think Tim Cook gets this settled in the next year or so and the blood oxygen will be back.

The (now former) CEO of Masimo was apparently anti-Apple and had no interest in striking a licensing deal. Now that there's new leadership things might be different. We shall see.

I have never upgraded my watch yearly (S3 -> S6 -> S9) but the S10 really tempted me– namely, the titanium version which is only a couple of grams heavier than my current aluminum S9 but has the sapphire screen. However, the lack of blood oxygen sensor ultimately kept me from upgrading, as I want to use the sleep tracking and vitals stuff from WatchOS 11.

I recently read that Masimo's CEO was recently ousted, so I'm wondering if the new leadership will be willing to play ball with Apple.

Yes, it is possible the new CEO & board may be interested in licensing while reported the former were not. Question is then whether they're willing to do so at a price that Apple would be willing to pay -- and that will depend on what Apple thinks the impact on sales might be due to disabled sensor.

As for sleep tracking - you should be able to sleep track and use the Vitals app with the S10, you just wouldn't get the blood oxygen data. You also could consider buying the S10 and retaining the S9 to use while sleeping, thus avoiding any concerns about charging. Thirdly you could just do sleep tracking with the S9 and not buy a S10.

 

[cdsapplefan]

The (now former) CEO of Masimo was apparently anti-Apple and had no interest in striking a licensing deal. Now that there's new leadership things might be different. We shall see.



Yes, it is possible the new CEO & board may be interested in licensing while reported the former were not. Question is then whether they're willing to do so at a price that Apple would be willing to pay -- and that will depend on what Apple thinks the impact on sales might be due to disabled sensor.

As for sleep tracking - you should be able to sleep track and use the Vitals app with the S10, you just wouldn't get the blood oxygen data. You also could consider buying the S10 and retaining the S9 to use while sleeping, thus avoiding any concerns about charging. Thirdly you could just do sleep tracking with the S9 and not buy a S10.

I thought I read some where that Masimo was willing to talk a money 💰 deal but Apple wanted to see if there special team of software engineers could first get around Masimo’s patents via a software algorithm update to avoid having to pay royalties 💰 Very similar to there infamous situation with Qualcomm.

If Apple can’t figure it out they may just wait until the patent expires in 2027-2028 or make a deal 🤝 with Masimo if the potential sales and numbers and math 🧮 will make sense for them.

 

[boss.king]

More datapoints are useeful, if you don’t think bloodox gives you value, that’s fine, others incl myself do find it useful

Yes, I’m aware people find it useful, that’s literally why I asked what people were finding it useful for.

EDIT: I went back and looked at my blood oxygen data for the last two times I got sick and I didn’t see any meaningful change from normal. What’s the metric I’m meant to the looking at?

 

[StaceyMJ86]

But it’s not a medical grade device. I get that it can help a little but surely if you have a lung problem worth monitoring, you’d want an actual blood ox sensor? Or is this just in addition to one of those?


Resting heart rate spikes already give you an early warning of sickness. I’ve been using that since I first got an S3 with pretty decent accuracy. I’m not saying blood ox can’t also do that, but if you don’t have it you can always default back to resting heart rate.

I use the Sp02 sensor on my Ultra 1 along with the Wellue O2 ring that I wear at night. I have Sleep Apnea and use a CPAP machine whenever I sleep (even during a nap), and wear the Wellue O2 ring since it is continuous and has a silent vibration whenever my oxygen levels drop below 90%.

I also have asthma, so the Sp02 sensor has been pretty accurate with my oxygen levels dropping whenever I am getting ready to get sick with a cold or the flu. I have been able to get medication to lessen my symptoms and shorten my recovery some.

 

[boss.king]

I use the Sp02 sensor on my Ultra 1 along with the Wellue O2 ring that I wear at night. I have Sleep Apnea and use a CPAP machine whenever I sleep (even during a nap), and wear the Wellue O2 ring since it is continuous and has a silent vibration whenever my oxygen levels drop below 90%.

I also have asthma, so the Sp02 sensor has been pretty accurate with my oxygen levels dropping whenever I am getting ready to get sick with a cold or the flu. I have been able to get medication to lessen my symptoms and shorten my recovery some.

Interesting, I had never considered that it might be helpful for asthma (mostly because I don’t really understand how asthma works). Thanks for sharing.

 

[StaceyMJ86]

Interesting, I had never considered that it might be helpful for asthma (mostly because I don’t really understand how asthma works). Thanks for sharing.

Whenever I catch the flu or a cold, my oxygen levels start to drop. When they hit below 90 and will not come back up, I get admitted and am put on oxygen, given antibiotics, steroids and albuterol to open my lungs back up and bring my oxygen levels back up. Having the Sp02 sensor on the watch, is helpful as I wear the watch all day, so I get an alert when something seems off with my oxygen levels.

 

[Indianwin2001]

Whenever I catch the flu or a cold, my oxygen levels start to drop. When they hit below 90 and will not come back up, I get admitted and am put on oxygen, given antibiotics, steroids and albuterol to open my lungs back up and bring my oxygen levels back up. Having the Sp02 sensor on the watch, is helpful as I wear the watch all day, so I get an alert when something seems off with my oxygen levels.

It also is helpful with emphysema.

 

[deeddawg]

I think we can agree it’s useful for those with certain medical conditions. Hopefully that’s a subset of the user population and fortunately the patent will expire while current devices are still functional.

I do have mild asthma - more exercise induced than day to day - and I’ve never seen blood ox indicate or predict anything. Sample size of N=1 though and I would expect others see different results

 

[Macaholic868]

I was going to buy an Apple Watch Series 10 and go all out this time with a Titanium version and the link loop but the lack of an O2 monitor has been bothering me. I have sleep apnea and knowing my blood oxygen level is important. I have to wear my CPAP whenever I sleep including just for naps and if there’s a problem with the machine that I can’t hear because it’s not malfunctioning in an audible way then that O2 monitor will let me know it.

I do like the way the Series 10 looks compared to the 9 but I hate the thought of paying more for a device that doesn’t do all of the things that the Series 7 with GPS and Cellular I have right now can do and since I’m a male who already has sleep apnea and knows it cycle tracking and sleep apnea detection do nothing for me.

I just checked eBay and right now I can get a like new graphite stainless steel Apple Watch Series 9 model that still has the O2 sensor and a Milenase loop for just over $400 or a black Sports Band for under $400 (mine is starting to show it’s age and I still want a band for working out…. I bought a refurbished Series 7 from Amazon that shipped with an “equivalent” Sports Band that I didn’t like as much as the band from the Series 4 I was replacing and hung onto) and get the link loop from the Apple Store if I still want one.

 

[deeddawg]

I was going to buy an Apple Watch Series 10 and go all out this time with a Titanium version and the link loop but the lack of an O2 monitor has been bothering me. I have sleep apnea and knowing my blood oxygen level is important.

I don’t imagine there’s a lot of trade in value to your series 7, so have you considered buying a series 10 for daytime wear and retaining your series 7 for sleep tracking and overnight SpO2 monitoring?

Swap at bedtime and after you get up. Phone auto switches and combines the data from both.

 

[Macaholic868]

I don’t imagine there’s a lot of trade in value to your series 7, so have you considered buying a series 10 for daytime wear and retaining your series 7 for sleep tracking and overnight SpO2 monitoring?

Swap at bedtime and after you get up. Phone auto switches and combines the data from both.

Yeah, I’ve thought about that. I don’t use the watch for sleep tracking right now because I feel like it would be uncomfortable for me. Sometimes I find myself taking it off for 30 minutes or so just to have it off my wrist. It’s definitely not a daily thing. It’s not even a weekly thing but I’d say about every two weeks or so I’ll find myself doing it on a Saturday or Sunday. I’m also worried about battery life if I use it for sleep tracking but having two watches would make that a non-issue. Now you’re talking me back into it 😀 …..

 

[deeddawg]

Yeah, I’ve thought about that. I don’t use the watch for sleep tracking right now because I feel like it would be uncomfortable for me. Sometimes I find myself taking it off for 30 minutes or so just to have it off my wrist. It’s definitely not a daily thing. It’s not even a weekly thing but I’d say about every two weeks or so I’ll find myself doing it on a Saturday or Sunday. I’m also worried about battery life if I use it for sleep tracking but having two watches would make that a non-issue. Now you’re talking me back into it 😀 …..

In case it helps -- I use a sports loop (fabric) for sleeping and find it to be comfortable since it "breathes" well.

YMMV of course. If you buy the new watch from somewhere with a good return policy you'd be able to try the sleep tracking for a week and see if it's something you wish to continue.

 

[Howard2k]

I often sleep with the titanium band on my Ultra 1.

People have slept with watches on for decades, I think it's only recently that it's become a problem.

 

[Yptcn]

I bought a S10 in the US. Blood oxygen is off. Does anyone know if it will turn back on when I go back to France ??

 

[StaceyMJ86]

I bought a S10 in the US. Blood oxygen is off. Does anyone know if it will turn back on when I go back to France ??

No. You would’ve had to purchased the watch in France in order to have the sensor enabled. Any watch purchased in the US after the ban, will have the sensor deactivated.

 

[Adelphos33]

For years I have avoided really doing the sleep tracking stuff. With the sleep apnea and the vitals tracking, I have decided to start and have gone full in. I have medical reason to track heart rate, blood oxygen and breathing during sleep, and having all the data is really useful and causing me to make changes already. Like many others, I saw metrics change as I got a cold recently with improvement as the cold went away.

The wild thing about all of this is blood oxygen is very useful to track - and Apple still hasn’t come to an agreement to bring it back in the US! I use a Series 9 for sleep tracking as it has everything enabled (sleep apnea, blood oxygen, etc). It’s wild that Apple’s newest watches on sale don’t include blood oxygen while much older watches do, and can therefore be more useful for sleep tracking. I would be stunned if Apple didn’t fix this over the next few months…

 

[deeddawg]

For years I have avoided really doing the sleep tracking stuff. With the sleep apnea and the vitals tracking, I have decided to start and have gone full in. I have medical reason to track heart rate, blood oxygen and breathing during sleep, and having all the data is really useful and causing me to make changes already. Like many others, I saw metrics change as I got a cold recently with improvement as the cold went away.

The wild thing about all of this is blood oxygen is very useful to track - and Apple still hasn’t come to an agreement to bring it back in the US! I use a Series 9 for sleep tracking as it has everything enabled (sleep apnea, blood oxygen, etc). It’s wild that Apple’s newest watches on sale don’t include blood oxygen while much older watches do, and can therefore be more useful for sleep tracking. I would be stunned if Apple didn’t fix this over the next few months…

Former CEO of Maximo reportedly was anti-Apple and wasn’t interested in licensing. New CEO? We shall see.

Bigger question is whether it make economic sense to license vs wait out the patents expiration in 2028. While you have a medical condition making SpO2 tracking useful, I’d venture the broad majority of customers don’t - for them it is a curiosity that doesn’t impact their purchasing decision. And someone such as yourself could still purchase a new watch and retain the older model for sleep tracking. (Edit: phone auto switches between two or more watches, so just swap at bedtime and morning, all the data gets combined)

So we shall see, perhaps Masimo will work something out at a cost that makes sense to Apple, or maybe they won’t. Lack of SpO2 has not seemed to have a huge impact on sales.

 

[pesos]

I buy my phones in the US (no shutter sound) and my watches in Japan for O2 lol.

 

[JPack]

Former CEO of Maximo reportedly was anti-Apple and wasn’t interested in licensing. New CEO? We shall see.

Bigger question is whether it make economic sense to license vs wait out the patents expiration in 2028. While you have a medical condition making SpO2 tracking useful, I’d venture the broad majority of customers don’t - for them it is a curiosity that doesn’t impact their purchasing decision. And someone such as yourself could still purchase a new watch and retain the older model for sleep tracking. (Edit: phone auto switches between two or more watches, so just swap at bedtime and morning, all the data gets combined)

So we shall see, perhaps Masimo will work something out at a cost that makes sense to Apple, or maybe they won’t. Lack of SpO2 has not seemed to have a huge impact on sales.

Nothing to do with the CEO. Masimo was plenty interested in working with Apple and licensing. But Apple wasn't willing to pay.

Think about it. Google (Fitbit) worked out a deal with Masimo. Garmin worked out a deal with Masimo. Somehow Apple wasn't?

In the trial, jurors were presented evidence about Project Everest, which was basically Apple's plan to acquire Masimo talent and tech without licensing. Apple has done this before with smaller companies, so it's no surprise. Their strategy is to gut the small company by poaching talent, have those new employees file similar patents, then wrestle it out in court. Apple has a $1B annual legal budget for these kinds of fights.

When Apple Comes Calling, ‘It’s the Kiss of Death’

Aspiring partners are accusing the tech giant of copying their ideas. Apple says it plays by the rules.

www.wsj.com

 

[deeddawg]

Nothing to do with the CEO. Masimo was plenty interested in working with Apple and licensing. But Apple wasn't willing to pay.

Think about it. Google (Fitbit) worked out a deal with Masimo. Garmin worked out a deal with Masimo. Somehow Apple wasn't?

In the trial, jurors were presented evidence about Project Everest, which was basically Apple's plan to acquire Masimo talent and tech without licensing. Apple has done this before with smaller companies, so it's no surprise. Their strategy is to gut the small company by poaching talent, have those new employees file similar patents, then wrestle it out in court. Apple has a $1B annual legal budget for these kinds of fights.

When Apple Comes Calling, ‘It’s the Kiss of Death’

Aspiring partners are accusing the tech giant of copying their ideas. Apple says it plays by the rules.

www.wsj.com

One of the articles I read stated that Kiani wasn't interested in settling, perhaps due to Apple's prior poaching actions. It's not coming up with a quick search and really doesn't matter either way.

Reality is that even if Masimo is willing to play ball it boils down to economics. Does Apple lose more sales due to lack of SpO2 sensor for the immediate future than it'd cost to license the technology? Depends on the estimated lost sales vs cost to license. If you were a retailer, would you pay more to license something than your expected cost of lost sales to not license it?

Just from what I've seen among friends and family, pretty much nobody cares enough about SpO2 monitoring to affect their purchase decision except a small portion with medical conditions. Small sample size of course, we'll see what the market says. I will remind readers that MR tends to be an echo chamber and the general non-tech-enthusiast public buying their watches at Walmart and Target generally have no idea the prior watches had SpO2 app and current do not.

There's also the potential that Apple's been clean-rooming something that will avoid the patents, thus shortening the ban from mid-2028. That might also factor into their planning/decisions.

 

[JPack]

One of the articles I read stated that Kiani wasn't interested in settling, perhaps due to Apple's prior poaching actions. It's not coming up with a quick search and really doesn't matter either way.

Reality is that even if Masimo is willing to play ball it boils down to economics. Does Apple lose more sales due to lack of SpO2 sensor for the immediate future than it'd cost to license the technology? Depends on the estimated lost sales vs cost to license. If you were a retailer, would you pay more to license something than your expected cost of lost sales to not license it?

Just from what I've seen among friends and family, pretty much nobody cares enough about SpO2 monitoring to affect their purchase decision except a small portion with medical conditions. Small sample size of course, we'll see what the market says. I will remind readers that MR tends to be an echo chamber and the general non-tech-enthusiast public buying their watches at Walmart and Target generally have no idea the prior watches had SpO2 app and current do not.

There's also the potential that Apple's been clean-rooming something that will avoid the patents, thus shortening the ban from mid-2028. That might also factor into their planning/decisions.

Actions speak louder than words. We’ve seen Masimo CEO on TV multiple times being interviewed. He talks about Apple not coming to the negotiation table. Those are not actions of someone who doesn’t want to strike deal. He knows patents have a expiry date.

We’ve seen this exact Apple playbook before. Apple was unwilling to deal with Qualcomm except in court. Qualcomm CEO talked about how Apple was completely radio silent. It wasn’t until Apple failed in their court battle and they needed 5G that Apple was willing to rekindle and negotiate.

SpO2 isn’t a critical feature. I agree. People who want that feature will seek it out. This is similar to the many people who travel or ask friends in Canada to buy an iPhone with a SIM tray. Not to mention only those who are affected are those in the U.S. so it’s a limited subset of frustrated customers.

I think if it were possible to clean room a different design that doesn’t involve LEDs and photoreceptors, Apple would have done it by now. It’s been more than 4 years. Chances are, they’ll just wait until 2028.

 

[goldmac2006]

I bought a S10 in the US. Blood oxygen is off. Does anyone know if it will turn back on when I go back to France ??

❌ the model number disables it, even if you travel back home. Please return it and buy the S10 in the EU.

 

[Yptcn]

❌ the model number disables it, even if you travel back home. Please return it and buy the S10 in the EU.

I’m already back ! It’s no big deal though,I only used it once when I got covid

 

[goldmac2006]

I’m already back ! It’s no big deal though,I only used it once when I got covid

If you do not mind it then keep it. You can use the S7 to take blood oxygen measurements as needed or sleep track with it.

 

[BR3W]

the general non-tech-enthusiast public buying their watches at Walmart and Target generally have no idea the prior watches had SpO2 app and current do not.

The funny thing is the app is still there but says the functionality is disabled. At least it's on my AW Ultra 2 that I purchased two weeks ago. Regardless, I doubt there's a measurable impact on sales.