Disenchanted After a Decade

[djlythium]

So, I’ve been thinking for a loooong time about my feelings I’ll lay out here, and I finally feel like I need a space to let them out. The MacRumors community has been good to me, and I try to be good back to y’all, so, I’d love to have respectful discourse about the current state of tech.

I’m pretty much fully disenchanted with how Apple’s tech has progressed, where we are from where we’ve come, and I have little hope it’ll improve. I won’t go into too many terrible design choices and software bugs because, as you all know, we have tons of threads dedicated to this stuff, so, I’ll stay broad. The overall theme IMO is that tech quality has plummeted over the last 5+ years, and it’s not looking promising.

- These many devices used to integrate well, but with the increase in devices for specialities (e.g., watch for quick access, iPhone for mobile interactions, iPad for media consumption, Mac for more heavy-duty work) has come spotty integrative connections. Why doesn’t the iPad allow syncing to the Watch, including health and activity apps? Why can’t I control my phone’s parameters from my Mac? Etc. Furthermore, why do these devices have the same hardware, but different abilities? I bought an S6 cellular Watch so I could use just that in my new car to stream music, use Siri for directions and phone calls, etc, but it doesn’t work like that. It only streams music, and Siri works for that kind of request (simple info), but it cannot initiate calls, and the directions audio don’t route through the BLE connection. Why not? As a result, I haven’t worn my Watch in a couple of days because it’s so basic, it’s almost useless (there’s an increasing amount of evidence suggesting that the Watch’s biometric data isn’t really that accurate. If it were, the field of health would recommend them.). Relatedly, why are cellular functions on iPad so limited?

- Many newer devices are using outdated tech, but are sold as premium products. The new iMac is teach compared to the current state of tech, but it’s sold at a price that insults Apple’s customers. Why doesn’t the iPhone have USB-C when all other major products do? Relatedly, the software UI choices used to be progressive, but are now antiquated. Why is it called ‘Settings’ on every OS except macOS? Why can’t we move Home Screen icons to anywhere we want? I find myself doing things twice, like tapping the same button because it mysteriously didn’t register the first tap? 🤷🏼‍♂️ Who knows? And typing on any of these screens, especially the iPad, is F****** atrocious! IF the software actually recognizes the touch input for the correct letter, the auto-correct might get the word right, but often doesn’t, and just compounds the issue by not recognizing basic grammar.

- The OSs are getting so complex that their own sub-systems have trouble speaking with one another, as well as to the cloud. Why are there separate systems for Siri’s voice and voiceover? Have you heard when they bicker with one another?! Why, the heck, did it take soooooo. looooong. for iCloud tabs to be fixed?

- And don’t get me started on Siri as a sub-system. 😵

In essence, the ‘beast’ has gotten so big that it’s now unwieldy. I’ve even dabbled with other systems and ecosystems, but I find it to be the same way: so complex that it’s mismanaged, and unmanageable. Having been part of this tech sphere basically from the beginning, it’s disappointing to see it drop to such a low.

Does anyone else feel this way? I can’t be the only one. Happy to have a respectful chat about everyone’s thoughts here. To end, I’ll offer a different vision:

- What if any one of our devices could be controlled from the other?
- What if all of our devices are so integrated that they us one adaptive OS, providing a uniform basis for inter-communication?
- What if the FIRST priority for any OS update was bug fixes?
- What if new features were polled from the stakeholder community (AKA real-world users) instead of some ethereal Board deciding what they think is best for us?
- What if bugs could be squashed by peer-reviewed patches from the tech community?

I think we can do better, but to do so requires a massive re-thinking of how electronic technology is built, at all levels. Until then, I predict we’re going to continue this downward slide in quality until we’re forced grass-roots. Let’s be honest: Apple is not the company it used to be; it’s a services company that dabbles in tech, which was not Job’s vision (however I understand it). Other companies follow suit, and innovate in their own way sometimes, but with the same underlying principle: profits over quality. It’s ‘just good enough’ engineering to maintain shareholders, not stakeholders. To Apple’s credit, they can innovate (e.g., the M1 chip, Retina display, etc.), but it’s clear their focus is on trickle-in profiting, not the advancement of tech for it’s own sake.

Thanks for reading this far! 🙏🏼

 

[Nermal]

What if the FIRST priority for any OS update was bug fixes?

Absolutely. Since getting a new Mac last year, moving on from my old 10.13 system, I went on a bug-reporting spree. Of the 19 issues I reported, 4 have definitely been fixed and 1 may have been fixed (it was intermittent and I haven't seen it since OS 11.4). The rest are still there. I've pretty much given up on reporting things since they never fix them...

What if bugs could be squashed by peer-reviewed patches from the tech community?

I would love it if Apple were to open source chunks of the OS and let people get in there and fix things. At the moment we're at the mercy of a company that simply doesn't care.

 

[djlythium]

Absolutely. Since getting a new Mac last year, moving on from my old 10.13 system, I went on a bug-reporting spree. Of the 19 issues I reported, 4 have definitely been fixed and 1 may have been fixed (it was intermittent and I haven't seen it since OS 11.4). The rest are still there. I've pretty much given up on reporting things since they never fix them...


I would love it if Apple were to open source chunks of the OS and let people get in there and fix things. At the moment we're at the mercy of a company that simply doesn't care.

I feel this, for sure. I use the Feedback app profusely. Again, to Apple’s credit, they do squash bugs, but there are some that remain so long that they’re features, at this point.

Right? I was just thinking that I wish I had access to the source code, and knew how to code 😅, because then I could fix the issues myself!

 

[romanof]

Other companies follow suit, and innovate in their own way sometimes, but with the same underlying principle: profits over quality. It’s ‘just good enough’ engineering to maintain shareholders, not stakeholders. To Apple’s credit, they can innovate (e.g., the M1 chip, Retina display, etc.), but it’s clear their focus is on trickle-in profiting, not the advancement of tech for it’s own sake.

That is just the state of the Union for today. If you look into the past at Tech - and probably other industries - there is a common thread. (This isn't my thesis, but what is taught in beaucoup Business 101 classes). A entrepreneur comes up with a possible idea, carries it forward to success, and maybe even super success. His (or her) product has his name and identity on it and he will take much action to make sure that that image is not diminished. (Folgers coffee, Dell Computers, Intel, and now Amazon, etc). He is a Steve Jobs shouting at everyone that no phone is going to be released that gets scratches just because it is put in a pocket with keys.

Eventually the original entrepreneur moves on in the natural scheme of life. Maybe his offspring takes over and continues the idea, but eventually the dynasty fades out and suddenly a bean counter (read MBA) is moved into the top spot. Now the shouting is not about quality, but "Why are we using these expensive Arabica coffee beans rather than the much cheaper Robusta!!?" "Well Sir, maybe because the latter taste like crap?" "Mix them together - nobody will know the difference."

Now the importance is the next quarterly report to stockholders, not worry about future customers. I expect that we will now see Amazon wondering why they are spending all this money on next day delivery. Three days will be much cheaper and customers will eventually accept it. And if not, what can they do about it? Go to a brick and mortar store?

When Tim Cook leaves Apple, I fully expect to see a Harvard MBA sit in the chair who will immediately have a meeting about the fancy packaging and the milled aluminium cases. "I have my first Stockholder conference in two months and it needs to be really good at the bottom line - start using plain cardboard for shipping and call the Acme Plastics Molding company for a meeting."

It is an inevitable change for all companies, eventually.

 

[djlythium]

Why are we using these expensive Arabica coffee beans rather than the much cheaper Robusta!!?" "Well Sir, maybe because the latter taste like crap?" "Mix them together - nobody will know the difference."

Your whole post was fantastic, so, TY for contributing! 🙏🏼

The coffee analogy is perfect. IMO, this exemplifies my thinking about ‘just good enough’ engineering. Mix the beans together to make a product that‘s just good enough to continue profits.

So, then, there should be a predictable cycle when it comes to quality and profits. With paradigmatic shifts in life will arise new companies with fresh ideas, but a major challenge would be to break this cycle.

 

[eyoungren]

Your whole post was fantastic, so, TY for contributing! 🙏🏼

The coffee analogy is perfect. IMO, this exemplifies my thinking about ‘just good enough’ engineering. Mix the beans together to make a product that‘s just good enough to continue profits.

So, then, there should be a predictable cycle when it comes to quality and profits. With paradigmatic shifts in life will arise new companies with fresh ideas, but a major challenge would be to break this cycle.

My wife and I are arabica snobs. But if you take a look at Death Wish coffee company, https://www.deathwishcoffee.com, you'l find an exception. Somehow these people have managed to create a robusta blend that for the past six years has served as our daily coffee. It's that good.

I'm leading with this to make the point that there are other tech companies out there, other products, other means, other ways. I am tech company agnostic. I do not believe in putting all my eggs in the same basket. What I have put together by using older tech and third party services works for me. When it doesn't, I'll find something else.

In about the next six to ten years I do not expect to be using Macs at home anymore. I'm about twelve years behind the current models (my primary desktop is a 2009 Mac Pro and I am typing this on a 2008 MBP). I'll probably switch back to PC/Windows or perhaps a Linux computer. But I buy the tech I like and integrate it, whether it's Apple or something else.

Since 2003 Apple has worked for me for various things, but I have never been married to them or their walled garden.

 

[djlythium]

My wife and I are arabica snobs. But if you take a look at Death Wish coffee company, https://www.deathwishcoffee.com, you'l find an exception. Somehow these people have managed to create a robusta blend that for the past six years has served as our daily coffee. It's that good.

Thanks for the recommendation! I love coffee so much. ☕️

Yeah, I worked my way into the ecosystem for that reason, for everything to ‘just work’, and for a while it did well, but that’s not the case these days, I find. Don’t get me wrong, many things do work, but I’ve found myself, at this point, surprised when something works seamlessly, when I don’t have to double-tap, or I’m not waiting excessively, and I feel that type of surprise should be the exception, not the norm. I’ve increasingly found myself muttering ‘what a terrible system!’. The new feature for macOS, where the mouse pointer can be moved across devices, seems amazing, but my reaction to it is like ‘Psh, looks neat, if it works correctly 🙄.’

To your point, I feel like having products from disparate companies, and trying to make them all work seamlessly, would be impossible, and even worse than what I’m experiencing now, but I’m open to being wrong.

 

[eyoungren]

Thanks for the recommendation! I love coffee so much. ☕️

Yeah, I worked my way into the ecosystem for that reason, for everything to ‘just work’, and for a while it did well, but that’s not the case these days, I find. Don’t get me wrong, many things do work, but I’ve found myself, at this point, surprised when something works seamlessly, when I don’t have to double-tap, or I’m not waiting excessively, and I feel that type of surprise should be the exception, not the norm. I’ve increasingly found myself muttering ‘what a terrible system!’. The new feature for macOS, where the mouse pointer can be moved across devices, seems amazing, but my reaction to it is like ‘Psh, looks neat, if it works correctly 🙄.’

To your point, I feel like having products from disparate companies, and trying to make them all work seamlessly, would be impossible, and even worse than what I’m experiencing now, but I’m open to being wrong.

I pick and choose what works and I'm willing to spend a little time just because I am the type of person that doesn't like being told 'no'.

Apple told me 'no' in 2012 when I got my first brand new iPhone and it wouldn't sync to my PowerBook G4. So I found other ways and other services. iMessage and backups are the only services from Apple I use. Everything else is third party. I don't even need iMessage because most of the people I communicate with use SMS (because they are Android). So I didn't really miss it for the year or so I was on Android.

That said, again there are workarounds. I did have iMessage for that year I was on Android because there's an app out there called AirServer that lets you use a Mac capable of iMessage as a server that communicates with an App on your Android phone. Thus I could 'iMessage' from my Pixel.

PS. The 2008 MBP I am using to type this is running Catalina. That's due to the various patchers out there that allow unsupported versions of OS X to be installed. My 2009 MacPro is a MP 5,1 (originally a 4,1) because of a firmware upgrade. I'm running Mojave on it natively.

My home server is a PowerMac G3/450 with a PCI SATA card and a 2TB RAID attached via eSATA. And I have a PowerMac G4 serving as a NAS with a PCI SATA card and 2x 3TB drives connected.

There's other stuff, but the point is that I've made it all work for me for my needs. I just don't like being beholden to one system only.

 

[djlythium]

There's other stuff, but the point is that I've made it all work for me for my needs. I just don't like being beholden to one system only.

Right, sounds like you’ve done a ton of work to get your systems up and cooperating, and this is really what it’s take!

 

[Nermal]

Eventually the original entrepreneur moves on in the natural scheme of life. Maybe his offspring takes over and continues the idea, but eventually the dynasty fades out and suddenly a bean counter (read MBA) is moved into the top spot. Now the shouting is not about quality, but "Why are we using these expensive Arabica coffee beans rather than the much cheaper Robusta!!?" "Well Sir, maybe because the latter taste like crap?" "Mix them together - nobody will know the difference."

Right. The problem now is that Apple's still charging premium prices but isn't making premium products any more. "Slightly less annoying than the competition" isn't really something to aspire to.

 

[djlythium]

Right. The problem now is that Apple's still charging premium prices but isn't making premium products any more. "Slightly less annoying than the competition" isn't really something to aspire to.

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 Absolutely right.

Overall, if we try to make a cognitive map across peoples' comments, including tech influencers, there seems to be three camps: 1) influencers who get paid to fluff the skirts; 2) real-world users, us who aren't afraid to call these companies out on their crap; and 3) newer folks into the tech sphere who might still be in the 'honeymoon' phase, where their perspective is still influenced by their adoration.

 

[eyoungren]

Right. The problem now is that Apple's still charging premium prices but isn't making premium products any more. "Slightly less annoying than the competition" isn't really something to aspire to.

This is why a lot of PowerPC Mac and Early Intel Mac owners continue to hold on to their systems. The later stuff just doesn't rise to the same build quality.

My work MBP is 2015 vintage and my employer now needs to get the battery replaced as its swelling like a balloon. Yet my own MBPs (2006 and 2008) and my PowerBooks (12", 15" and 17" G4) have never had swelling batteries.

Having come to Apple from the PC world, I at least know what to expect when or if I do return to it after my last Mac purchase.

 

[VulchR]

That is just the state of the Union for today. If you look into the past at Tech - and probably other industries - there is a common thread. (This isn't my thesis, but what is taught in beaucoup Business 101 classes). A entrepreneur comes up with a possible idea, carries it forward to success, and maybe even super success. His (or her) product has his name and identity on it and he will take much action to make sure that that image is not diminished. (Folgers coffee, Dell Computers, Intel, and now Amazon, etc). He is a Steve Jobs shouting at everyone that no phone is going to be released that gets scratches just because it is put in a pocket with keys.

Eventually the original entrepreneur moves on in the natural scheme of life. Maybe his offspring takes over and continues the idea, but eventually the dynasty fades out and suddenly a bean counter (read MBA) is moved into the top spot. Now the shouting is not about quality, but "Why are we using these expensive Arabica coffee beans rather than the much cheaper Robusta!!?" "Well Sir, maybe because the latter taste like crap?" "Mix them together - nobody will know the difference."

Now the importance is the next quarterly report to stockholders, not worry about future customers. I expect that we will now see Amazon wondering why they are spending all this money on next day delivery. Three days will be much cheaper and customers will eventually accept it. And if not, what can they do about it? Go to a brick and mortar store?

When Tim Cook leaves Apple, I fully expect to see a Harvard MBA sit in the chair who will immediately have a meeting about the fancy packaging and the milled aluminium cases. "I have my first Stockholder conference in two months and it needs to be really good at the bottom line - start using plain cardboard for shipping and call the Acme Plastics Molding company for a meeting."

It is an inevitable change for all companies, eventually.

True - I'd like to see equal representation on company boards of stockholders, workers, and customers. Right now there is an urban myth regarding 'fiduciary responsibility', that actually is not written anywhere in law, and which makes the interests of stockholders paramount to the detriment of everybody else. Ridiculous dividends and stock buy-backs that could be used for R&D are examples of how corporate managers drive companies into the ground trying to keep stockholders happy.

 

[djlythium]

True - I'd like to see equal representation on company boards of stockholders, workers, and customers. Right now there is an urban myth regarding 'fiduciary responsibility', that actually is not written anywhere in law, and which makes the interests of stockholders paramount to the detriment of everybody else. Ridiculous dividends and stock buy-backs that could be used for R&D are examples of how corporate managers drive companies into the ground trying to keep stockholders happy.

Not to derail the discussion from the topic, but I love Robert Reich’s work speaking about the shift from ‘stakeholders’ to ‘shareholders’ across America. It explains so much!

 

[maflynn]

Here's my take.

I started with "technology" that was ground breaking at the time - What was it? An Atari 2600. I was fortunate enough to be on the ground floor of the computer industry and I loved every moment of it. I remember going to Boston Computer Society meetings, seeing the release of the Amiga, Apple's Macintosh. Loving the Apple IIC when it was released.

Those were exciting times, and it was awesome, but like everything else, time marches on, the technology matures and as it does, things get "less exciting" Take the iPhone, Apple came up with something just at the right time, and that whole excitement of what you may be able to do with this mirrored the sentiment regarding home computers. Well now that technology has matured and we're at a point where change is much much smaller.

 

[Ethosik]

Most of what you are saying pretty much lines in what Agile software development is, and as a software developer for 15 years now, I am not a fan. Agile software mentality is to push out software NOW instead of LATER with bigger updates. This is why we have two big updates a year with Microsoft, or even a smaller update that introduces a feature (News and Interests). Why Windows 7 is still the best OS around IMO.

I am getting so sick of all of these new updates that introduce half tested features. Visual Studio 2019 recently released an update that was a regression and prevented C# code from compiling even though the C# code written conformed to the C# version 1 spec! This was posted in the dev forums at Microsoft and they confirmed it was a regression introduced. Another Visual Studio 2019 update broke the Git permissions. Going in to settings and changing a value fixed it. This was confirmed by many devs that they just changed the way Git handles permissions and forced you into the new way instead of still using the old way.

I have ALWAYS upgraded to the latest thing when it released - Windows 10, macOS Big Sur, Visual Studio 2019. But at this point, I am tired of being such a beta tester. Even for a Visual Studio 2019 update that was released a couple months ago! Visual Studio 2019 should be finalized and only receive bug fixes and security updates. Trying to be "agile" and adding new features in Visual Studio 2019 has shown to break the program from working.

I have always stated this - Apple, Microsoft, Adobe, Google, and all other companies need to just slow down. Release a new upgrade with new features every couple of years or 3 yeas like before. OS and applications should be locked in feature wise and just receive bug fixes and security updates.

I have been to 4 different IT jobs in the last 10 years that all incorporated the Agile development methodology. They all had the same attitude of getting things QUICK QUICK QUICK and our quality suffered for it. It NEEDS to be done in 2 week sprint!

Things just aren't handled well these days, and I really hope we see a shift away from agile.

 

[eyoungren]

Here's my take.

I started with "technology" that was ground breaking at the time - What was it? An Atari 2600. I was fortunate enough to be on the ground floor of the computer industry and I loved every moment of it. I remember going to Boston Computer Society meetings, seeing the release of the Amiga, Apple's Macintosh. Loving the Apple IIC when it was released.

Those were exciting times, and it was awesome, but like everything else, time marches on, the technology matures and as it does, things get "less exciting" Take the iPhone, Apple came up with something just at the right time, and that whole excitement of what you may be able to do with this mirrored the sentiment regarding home computers. Well now that technology has matured and we're at a point where change is much much smaller.

I think expectations come into play some here though. My wife never expected the personal computer to stick around. She thought it was a fad and using one or not was never anything for her. She still had her typewriter.

When smartphones came around (and then the iPhone) it didn't affect us as we already had phones…which we used for phone calls. It wasn't until Christmas 2008 that we actually got a data plan and started text messaging.

The fact that I have a portable 'computer' on the go is nice, but I've never expected these things to replace computers. Some did and for many of them they got rid of their computer and use their phone/tablets exclusively. I'm still at using my iPhone primarily for phone calls and texting. I have a slew of computers for everything else.

I may represent the tail whereas other may represent the head of technology. But I think the middle tends to determine where this stuff goes and the maturation of the technology is based on that.

Ex. The average person ditched cameras because their cell phone came with one. That technology has matured because people wanted that, but most people aren't professional photographers and all the hype about the next advance in iPhone camera tech doesn't really affect them. That maturation means it's good enough for most users.

 

[poked]

I’m not a software developer/in that field. I’m taking baby steps to build my own website and market myself. HOWEVER! I think there’s a great deal of value to taking things slow. Why are we getting updates every single year from Apple with new tech? The development cycle is going to burn itself out in no time, primarily because there is a huge difference between outputting quality every three years and outputting quantity with minimal changes to the product. Why the heck do we need a new phone every year? What purpose does it serve us, as consumers, to consume minimal amounts of changes in our products? That only tells big companies we’re alright with mediocre, and that they can continue to deliver it to us based on their profit margins. Shareholders only seem to notice the green numbers going up, so there are some features I don’t understand in a *premium product*/product lines. Lack of backwards compatability and support are really messing Apple up. I want to go back to a specific OS configuration on Apple’s iMac line because I find it the most aesthetically pleasing, but I can’t because of the M1 chip update causing chaos in the development community. I want my iMac to look less “sad, stark contrast” and more “fun, bubble icons and pop ups”. That, to me, is a fun product I’ll enjoy using. Not whatever the heck the lame UI they have now is. Why does everything have to be flat? Why minimalist? Maximalist is a lot more fun.

 

[djlythium]

Here's my take.

I started with "technology" that was ground breaking at the time - What was it? An Atari 2600. I was fortunate enough to be on the ground floor of the computer industry and I loved every moment of it. I remember going to Boston Computer Society meetings, seeing the release of the Amiga, Apple's Macintosh. Loving the Apple IIC when it was released.

Those were exciting times, and it was awesome, but like everything else, time marches on, the technology matures and as it does, things get "less exciting" Take the iPhone, Apple came up with something just at the right time, and that whole excitement of what you may be able to do with this mirrored the sentiment regarding home computers. Well now that technology has matured and we're at a point where change is much much smaller.

Great point! Yeah, I’ve definitely taken time to consider to what extent my feelings are derived from long-term familiarity with these systems.

 

[djlythium]

I’m not a software developer/in that field. I’m taking baby steps to build my own website and market myself. HOWEVER! I think there’s a great deal of value to taking things slow. Why are we getting updates every single year from Apple with new tech? The development cycle is going to burn itself out in no time, primarily because there is a huge difference between outputting quality every three years and outputting quantity with minimal changes to the product. Why the heck do we need a new phone every year? What purpose does it serve us, as consumers, to consume minimal amounts of changes in our products? That only tells big companies we’re alright with mediocre, and that they can continue to deliver it to us based on their profit margins. Shareholders only seem to notice the green numbers going up, so there are some features I don’t understand in a *premium product*/product lines. Lack of backwards compatability and support are really messing Apple up. I want to go back to a specific OS configuration on Apple’s iMac line because I find it the most aesthetically pleasing, but I can’t because of the M1 chip update causing chaos in the development community. I want my iMac to look less “sad, stark contrast” and more “fun, bubble icons and pop ups”. That, to me, is a fun product I’ll enjoy using. Not whatever the heck the lame UI they have now is. Why does everything have to be flat? Why minimalist? Maximalist is a lot more fun.

Right, I def think this constant update cycle needs to be dialed back. That said, I personally love the minimalist colorized design. 😄

 

[usagora]

This is why a lot of PowerPC Mac and Early Intel Mac owners continue to hold on to their systems. The later stuff just doesn't rise to the same build quality.

I'm pretty sure this is all in your imagination. Had a IIGS as a kid, but I didn't start using Macs seriously as an adult until around 2005 when I bought a used Mac Mini G4 off ebay. Since then I've owned a couple of the 2008 white Intel Core 2 Duo MacBooks, a couple 2010 iMac 21.5", a 2012 iMac 27", and currently a 2020 MBA M1 and 2019 iMac 27" The only issues I've had were 1. swollen battery and failed backlight after many years on one of the 2008 MacBooks and 2. non-working Thunderbolt ports on 2012 iMac (had no occasion to use until after several years of ownership, so not sure if they were DOA or failed over time). So it seems no matter what the age of the machine, there's a potential for issues. In fact, I've often seen threads on this forum about issues people have with those PowerPC and early Intel machines you claim they hold onto because they're superior. Methinks the real reason they're holding onto them is either nostalgia, frugality, because they enjoy tinkering or maintaining older Macs, or a combination of those.

 

[eyoungren]

I'm pretty sure this is all in your imagination. Had a IIGS as a kid, but I didn't start using Macs seriously as an adult until around 2005 when I bought a used Mac Mini G4 off ebay. Since then I've owned a couple of the 2008 white Intel Core Duo MacBooks, a couple 2010 iMac 21.5", a 2012 iMac 27", and currently a 2020 MBA M1 and 2019 iMac 27" The only issues I've had were 1. swollen battery and failed backlight after many years on one of the 2008 MacBooks and 2. non-working Thunderbolt ports on 2012 iMac (had no occasion to use until after several years of ownership, so not sure if they were DOA or failed over time). So it seems no matter what the age of the machine, there's a potential for issues. In fact, I've often seen threads on this forum about issues people have with those PowerPC and early Intel machines you claim they hold onto because they're superior. Methinks the real reason they're holding onto them is either nostalgia, frugality, because they enjoy tinkering or maintaining older Macs, or a combination of those.

There's a known issue with MBPs using the GeForce 8600M GT GPU. Once you start losing lane width the GPU will fail sooner or later, making the laptop useless. One of the users in the Early Intel and PowerPC Mac forums has a small side business where he replaces GPUs for these Macs.

Touchbar issues, keyboard issues in later Macs, etc. PowerPC and Early Intel have their issues as well, but in general it's my opinion that the build quality is better.

Since it's an opinion and you disagree with me on that we'll probably stay on opposite sides of the camp. However, you're right in your reasons for why we hold on to these older Macs. I enjoy making them work myself.

 

[KaliYoni]

When Tim Cook leaves Apple, I fully expect to see a Harvard MBA sit in the chair who will immediately have a meeting about the fancy packaging and the milled aluminium cases.

Um, Tim Cook has an MBA. It's from Duke/Fuqua. Fuqua is pretty close to HBS in reputation and prestige, especially in finance.

I'd like to see equal representation on company boards of stockholders, workers, and customers.

I disagree because customers can easily vote by buying or not buying a company's products. And don't forget the Jobs-era Apple was driven by a "Our job is to figure out what [customers are] going to want before they do" philosophy.

----------
I don't think the "walled garden" situation is anything new. Hardware, software, and online services companies have always tried to lock customers into their ecosystems. In fact, Macs have been a total repudiation of Apple's hobbyist roots from the very beginning. Torx screws, proprietary connectors, non-standard disk formats, opaque source code...this list began in 1984 and continues on today.

I do think a lot of dissatisfaction with Apple is driven by its shift from a geeky tech company to an upscale lifestyle brand company. The combination of Cook and Ive leading Apple was particularly bad for traditional Apple customers. A laser focus on operations and incremental costs coupled with an obsessive pursuit of form-over-function created the current state of Apple's UI, UX, and product mix. It's great for TikTok influencers and fashionistas but horrible for anybody who wants to get work done. Ugh.

 

[SergueiTemp]

Everything has pretty much gone down the toilet

This. It's not just about Tim Cook. You can't be a big tech company without integrating into tech mafia, which Apple is now part of. And if someone gets tired and wants to leave Apple to create a hardware/software making company - he can't, because they would sue his ass right away for infringing one of their patents. And only the most devoted can leave anyway, choosing uncertain future instead of solid salary/insurance etc. I just described how tech giant is built. But every empire falls. Look at recent events at Blizzard for an example. If you don't create - there's no point for you to exist in creative business. Unless Apple wants to be Dell.

 

[PlayUltimate]

Sigh. One thing that Apple has to deal with now vs then is its massive sales. Just think about lead times for hardware and software to be designed. I have a friend who works at Apple. The product that he works on needs to be ‘ready’ at least 6 months before release with the remaining 6 months needed for bug-fixes and compatibility checks across the various current and older-supported products. On the hardware side, what is the required lead-time for iPhone designs to be production ready in order to secure the required hardware in order for assembly to take place in order for multiple millions of devices to be available on a launch day. All of these things take time. And Apple has to have a multi-year development path. I suspect the hardware designs for the iPhone 15/16 are being discussed now and the 14 will be design complete in the next few months.
This is not an excuse for bad design in either hardware or software. However, it is hard for any of us to be surprised by anything Apple does any more; too many eyes are on Apple.