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MacBandit

macrumors 604
Originally posted by NNO-Stephen
you're wrong about that. videogames usually run at from 30-60 frames/sec. (console anyway) and the most people care about is 60, because as you said, people can't tell the difference with higher framerates. but drops below thirty and people bitch. hell, even at thirty, some graphics whores throw a fit.

but still, your basic point is right ;)

How am I wrong? We made the same point but I was saying that in my oppinion games run better when they average around 100FPS because at that point there is very little chance they will ever drop to unacceptable levels.

Most consoles run 30-60 because they can. They are a tightly controlled system running highly optimized and all the variables are well known. So they can make a game run at 30fps for the whole game for that matter with no fluctuation.

I have a problem with 30FPS because online multiplayer sucks at 30FPS.
 

dietsoda

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2003
45
0
Bath, UK
If I recall correctly, the human eye/brain uses a hgher "refresh rate" in the edges of your vision, as an aid to detect movement around you. The center of your vision uses a slower rate, dedicating more resources to the detail in the content of the image. Supposedly as we are both Hunter and Hunted. If you have a CRT you can try it out. Set your refresh rate to something slow like 60Hz and then look to the side of the screen so that the screen is on the edge of your vision, you should notice banding and flickering, although some are more sensitive to it than others.

As to the frame rates: PAL TV (UK & Europe) is 25fps or 50 fields (half-frames interlaced), NTSC TV (USA) is 30fps (29.97 in truth) or 60 fields, and FILM is usually 24fps. There is NTSC Film which is something like 23.97fps, but not quite sure about it, maybe somebody else here could give us a better understanding of frame rates, refresh rates, pixel response time, and how these worlds collide?
 

the future

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2002
3,458
5,549
Originally posted by dietsoda
Why sorry? My comments did not purport to relate exclusively or specifically to the 20" display.

I also hope that Apple produces something better than the NEC, at no point did i say anything about it being a design classic. I am one of the few people it seems who actually likes the look of the G5 too.



The term "only" was used as in "single", "one". Here the 17" is said to have a response time of 40ms. I freely admit i have no info on the response time of the 20". Again, I made no specific claims about the response time or performance of the 20". But the 40ms rating isn't acceptable.

Why does it make you so angry to question the value of an Apple product? I'm a loyal and devoted mac user myself, and when it comes to singing the praises of Mac OS X, FCP, QuickTime, iBooks, even eMacs! I'm not even sure I won't be plumping for the 20" myself yet. But when it comes to the 17", for the price you pay, it's not as good as you could get elsewhere. When it comes to image quality, Apple needs to be two steps ahead, not dragging their heals.

Oh dear...

First of all I'm not angry at all and I don't think I made any comment that supports this perception of yours. I thought we were just a having a nice, friendly conversation based on facts.

Also you should have noticed by now that I'm not blindly defending all Apple products or even all Apple displays, only the 20" one. I freely admit that the other Apple displays are a bit behind the competition as they are older than the 20". Why is it so hard for you to admit that your initial statement (that all Apple LCD displays are behind the competition) was a little to broad and just plain wrong regarding the 20"? As you obviously can't prove that the 20" is also behind, let's just leave it that, shall we?

About the NEC display: you didn't say it was a "design classic", but you said you liked it and even said the next Apple displays may probably be similar to those. I just said that I didn't like them and hope the next Apple displays will look better than this. What's angry about that?

Also it's impossible for Apple to be "two steps ahead" in image quality as they don't manufacture displays themselves. They can only use what exists.


p.s. I may start to sound "angry" now, but to quote the dictionary definition of 'only' was extremely childish and unnecessary. This (but not this alone) only proved that logic is quite possibly not your closest friend.

p.p.s. But hey, everything is not lost! At least we agree that the G5 looks great!
 

dietsoda

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2003
45
0
Bath, UK
Your suggestion was that i was contradicting myself by saying "only" in relation to the pixel reponse time, as that had been one of the things i specified as being behind much of the competition. I felt this was more than a little pedantic, and quite a wilfull misinterpretation of the text.

Only one of the Apple displays uses the updated tech, the other two don't, and even the 20" does not have that high a contrast ratio. So my comments remain valid, despite your vehement assertions to the contrary.

Also in my original post I mentioned that with the rumored price cuts, the Apple displays become much more attractive. In addition I stated that i would love an apple display. My post merely indicated that I am waiting before any purchases for the line to be brought up to the specs of the competition, or at least roughly equivalent

You responed with:
The 20" is NOT below the competition in any way
I feel that despite your use of capitals ("NOT"), the facts ARE still debatable.

I responded by agreeing that the 20" was certainally an improvement over it's siblings, and expanded my list of concerns to inluded the bezel, as it was a point being made by others which i agreed with, and felt was a factor in purchasing decisions.

In your next reply you rather condescendingly 'educated' me that specs aren't always the best way to judge a product. Something I would assume anybody on these boards would know, and if i pointed it out to them, it would be because i was trying to undermine them, and draw into question the validity of their argument. A distraction from the matter in hand, and nothing more than an attempt to gain status, while reducing mine.

You also rather pointedly demanded that i supply some sources, which i did in my next two posts. You then post again, still fixated on the 20", demanding yet more sources, and seemingly overlooking the ones i'd provided. You then make what is for me your infamous comments where you childishly single out my use of the word "only", despite me using it within a context that made it clear that i thought this was a deliberate act on apples part to disguise this crucial info. you again questioned "How do you know?".

In your most recent post you degenreate into personal insults, again trying to undermine my position in this public forum.
p.s. I may start to sound "angry" now, but to quote the dictionary definition of 'only' was extremely childish and unnecessary. This (but not this alone) only proved that logic is quite possibly not your closest friend.

At no point have i made any detremental remarks about you personally, or your opinions, i have merely disagreed with them. And any reservations i may have had about my interpretation of your previous posts has been blown out of the water by your, quite frankly, pathetic and juvenile comments in the last post. I feel I also need to point out that i have still not made any assertions about you personally, only the comments you have made.

As a relatively new member of the macrumors forums I have to say you've done a fabulous job of making me feel utterly unwelcome, and whether or not you intended your posts to be so unfriendly is almost irrelevant.

But true, at least we agree on the PowerMac G5 design.
 

dietsoda

macrumors member
Jun 13, 2003
45
0
Bath, UK
Also it's impossible for Apple to be "two steps ahead" in image quality as they don't manufacture displays themselves. They can only use what exists.

They don't manufacture the PPC970, Memory, Screens, Mice, Keyboards, or most of the things they sell. That doesn't mean they don't or can't get the best of the components out there, rather than using the cheapest, or just the easiest available. So yes, Apple can be at the front of the field, and "two steps ahead" of the majority of the competition.
 

the future

macrumors 68040
Jul 17, 2002
3,458
5,549
OMG, dietsoda, you really have to calm down and not take criticism that personal. I finally understand that you are not really interested in having a rational conversation. Case closed.
 

GrizzlyHippo

macrumors member
Jul 17, 2002
83
0
on the sofa
dietsoda and the future - calm down guys. Let's get back on track.

Does anyone have info now on the content of the display meeting? Arn??

Hey dietsoda, where are you based in Bath, I live and work there too.

Grizzly
 

MacBandit

macrumors 604
Okay people just calm down a bit. Here's the problem. You can't judge a display by it's specs. Plain and simple. The problem is that isn't a standard test to determine the specs. So a company can do whatever it takes to stretch their specs to make them look better. Viewsonic was doing this to extreme up until a couple months ago. They advertised their displays to have 600:1 contrast ration and in real world tests many of them had poorer contrast than many displays rated at 350:1.

If you want to test and compare a display either read test from people you trust or do it yourself but don't do it based on manufacturer specs for any product.
 

e-coli

macrumors 68000
Jul 27, 2002
1,940
1,154
This (but not this alone) only proved that logic is quite possibly not your closest friend.

heh heh. Well I thought this was hysterical. ;)
 
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