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Do you feel "What happens on your iPhone stays on your iPhone" is false advertising?
- Thread starter dszakal
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Yes, so this is a move to make the scan more privacy-minded, which is a good thing.
Wrong. Any of these manufacturers could make use of "AI" and say device level monitoring of the audio from the cameras is listening for certain sounds or phrases and only sends notification if it hears X number of trigger sounds/phrases, 100% the same thing as all of the video and audio is being sent to their individual cloud servers.
I'm sorry, but that's not the same thing at all as comparing file hash info. There are SO many different contexts in which things can be said or it could be someone quoting what someone else said. No way in hell that's going to be a viable option and it would be nowhere near as effective and accurate as what Apple is doing here.
So you'd rather Apple be monitoring everything on the cloud where they have access to all scan data than on your phone where they don't see the scan data?
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Yeah, it actually is.
Let's try this on for size... many manufacturers are developing facial recognition AI, what is to stop all of the previously mentioned camera companies from using a device level search for hashes of known criminal faces? Then lets not just stop at criminals, how about political opponents, etc.? All 100% the same thing.
Then let them monitor it when it hits their cloud. Until then it's on MY device and that is akin to surveillance in MY house. They can monitor it when it's left MY house(phone) and is in their house(servers). NOT before.
I can see Apple expanding the scanning in iMessage to include text phrases that a predator seeking to lure a child may use.
I agree with you that Apple didn't have to do on device scanning unless they are seeking to expand it to their other communication apps on iPhone, iPad, and Mac (as well as third party requirement). The reason for on device is for Apple control.
I wonder of potential legal challenges to this, as it applies to personal devices and to general privacy rights (ie: non-cloud). One of the most personal items we have today is our cell phones. Even with aggregated data analysis (ie: tagging or "hashes" of photos) there is still access to same, in this case without consent. The latter part being significant.
What I have found, over the years, is there appears to be an uptick in using child porn or human trafficking as the basis behind taking invasive actions that I surmise have much different agenda and provides for broader abuses of privacy.
Getting the public riled and angry about abuse is an easy way to gain psychological pliancy. This tactic is classic "perception management" used in information warfare, etc.
I just find this move by Apple to be very perplexing and disappointing.
The EFF has chimed in with their take on this:
Apple's Plan to "Think Different" About Encryption Opens a Backdoor to Your Private Life
If there is a larger legal challenge to this, the EFF will most certainly need to get involved.
That Apple continues to hold and control encryption keys to all iCloud content is yet another obvious measure (or failure) on their part, and likely part of the intentional design strategy and is not optional.
What I have found, over the years, is there appears to be an uptick in using child porn or human trafficking as the basis behind taking invasive actions that I surmise have much different agenda and provides for broader abuses of privacy.
Getting the public riled and angry about abuse is an easy way to gain psychological pliancy. This tactic is classic "perception management" used in information warfare, etc.
I just find this move by Apple to be very perplexing and disappointing.
The EFF has chimed in with their take on this:
Apple's Plan to "Think Different" About Encryption Opens a Backdoor to Your Private Life
If there is a larger legal challenge to this, the EFF will most certainly need to get involved.
That Apple continues to hold and control encryption keys to all iCloud content is yet another obvious measure (or failure) on their part, and likely part of the intentional design strategy and is not optional.
The whole thing feels a bit like this to me: it's like if a police officer comes into to your house while you're at work, rummages around your drawers to check for contraband and leaves before you get home. You might not ever know it happened because you have no contraband, but that doesn't make it right.
As for the thing itself, I get some areas, don't understand others and still have questions.
How big is the database of hashes?
How often will the phone(/device) download this file?
When will the phone scan the photo library for matches?
How much battery power, RAM and CPU will be collectively wasted on this process? (Which will also indirectly increase CO2 emissions.)
What exactly are those "safety vouchers" in lay terms?
Will someone be able to extract the program that scans the pictures and independently test it?
As for the thing itself, I get some areas, don't understand others and still have questions.
How big is the database of hashes?
How often will the phone(/device) download this file?
When will the phone scan the photo library for matches?
How much battery power, RAM and CPU will be collectively wasted on this process? (Which will also indirectly increase CO2 emissions.)
What exactly are those "safety vouchers" in lay terms?
Will someone be able to extract the program that scans the pictures and independently test it?
I suspect that the TOS for iCloud will be changed to include Consent, so you can either cancel your iCloud or accept the new TOS.
I'll guess that this had been in planning stages for a long time, as it involves relationships with governmental agencies, including logistics of data sharing resources, etc. We can't negate that the response by Apple may have been partially affected by pressure from those agencies -- as per my earlier post, these actions often open doors for broader application of information abuse (ie: undisclosed agenda). Wouldn't surprise me.
These details will likely never be willingly disclosed. But good questions. I do wonder.
These details will likely never be willingly disclosed. But good questions. I do wonder.
That's something else that really irritates me. You sign up for a service, there is a ToS and AUP. But during that time, the vendor can (at any time) change those terms of service whenever they want. So you become dependent on some architecture, they change the ToS and you have no other option but to comply or start all over again (if you can, at all).
Your only recourse is to stop using the service, which doesn't always work with a large ecosystem such as Apple.
This won't be the end of it, but with a larger entity like Apple getting this type of attention, hopefully some limits will be enforced upon them.
Not sure anymore, to be honest. I’m still not updating to iOS 15 or Monterey in the foreseeable future.
Either way, you can't judge a person by what they may do in the future, only what they have already done.
So far, Apple's stance is that they will only scan photos destined to be uploaded to cloud storage, no different from what Microsoft and google are already doing, so it seems fair to grade them along these lines. In this regard, Apple is actually behind the curve, and playing catch up to these companies.
We can argue until the cows come home about a thousand different hypothetical scenarios that could happen. While said technology could also in theory be used for other purposes (like say, scan all photos regardless of whether iCloud is turned on or off), the problem with a slippery slope argument like this is what while I cannot prove that it won't happen, you can't prove that it will necessarily happen either (although the ability certainly is there).
In the end, we are just arguing over each other, and nobody is listening.
Can you share where Google is device scanning?
I do know they provide tools to help combat this https://protectingchildren.google/intl/en/ and I know they have been image scanning shared (Cloud, Gmail, etc) for a number of years. I have not heard of on device scanning.
Google scans photos you upload to google photos.
Apple scans photos you upload to iCloud, right before they are uploaded (so the scanning occurs on-device), but only for photos that were going to be uploaded anyways.
It’s the same outcome at the end of the day, even if the implementation differs.
I think the more vital question is - why is Apple choosing to go about this in such a controversial manner, when other companies have been doing it for years without people batting an eyelid? What’s wrong with simply scanning iCloud content and calling it a day?
Even the revelation that facebook had an army of employees manually vet controversial images to the point where many of them suffered mental breakdowns largely went under the radar because again, it’s a given that whatever you put on the internet is no longer private and well, it’s a problem that affected them, not us.
One possibility is that this is the first in a number of steps towards offering encrypted iCloud storage, and they can at least tell law enforcement that they are fairly confident that there is no child pornography on their users’ iCloud storage accounts (because there would otherwise be no real way of telling).
Granted, the most disconcerting part is the lack of control on the user’s part and how this largely comes down to “trust us to not abuse this in the future”. But there’s still a few months before this become reality, so expect more information and context to surface, and keep an open mind.
Please come forward and be the pioneer to dismantle any form of encryption, outlaw encryption technology outside of military and secret services and encourage full unconditional disclose of any information held by any citizen.
Letting aside the actual reason - child abuse - this whole thing is only the end of a long road we all have gone together. Since the first allowed cookie at the end of the 90´s, the first syncing of bookmarks (do it, it is so comfy!), the first upload to a cloud system we are going the hill down. We are already in a hell of cookies and trackers, we are bound into systems we can not leave easily, so this step af Apple doesn´t surprise me at all.
It will getting worse and worse with no point of return and the baddest scifi movie is harmless compared to where we all will end.
Yes, I´m pessimistic but the last 20 years I so often have been right with my "dark visions".
Just my 2 cents.
It will getting worse and worse with no point of return and the baddest scifi movie is harmless compared to where we all will end.
Yes, I´m pessimistic but the last 20 years I so often have been right with my "dark visions".
Just my 2 cents.
Why are people so worried - its been done for years on other platforms. If you dont have child porn on phone then why are you worried? Yes it could flag innocent photos but surely if they were to investigate they’d see they are innocent photos or family photos. It’s the context. People need to chill.
Apple can scan their file servers but not my phone. It's intrusive to break into someones phone.
They make the iPhone a spyphone.
They make the iPhone a spyphone.
