Don't Understand Apple's Direction

[YosemiteSam]

Isn't it funny how we all love to 'think different' and be rebellious when we're on the outside of a market looking in, but my how that changes once you tap into the mainstream. Now you have 'other concerns' ... 'it's not that simple" you exclaim ...

This is a great way of putting it, and really reflects my feelings regarding the "new" (and not-so-improved) Apple. Turns out all the speeches and rhetoric and PR campaigns about creative culture and sticking it to The Man and whatnot was pretty much just smoke and mirrors- empty spin.

As soon as Apple acquired serious marketshare (in these new iDevice segments, anyway) and achieved dominant sales/product traction, what do they do? They go straight up Microsoft in how they do things. Now its about the bottom line, market dominance, near-monopoly, squeezing $$, grabbing for the consumer dollar to the near-complete exclusion of the "creative" culture (meaning content creators), etc. Apple, essentially, is the new Microsoft. That's incredibly ironic, no?

I'd just laugh if I somehow still saw a "Hi, I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC" ad on TV these days.

Hey- the brand and company are doing great. And if shareholders are what matters most, they're certainly delivering a truly unbelievable performance to which I can only tip my hat. (Take warning though, Apple- MS was once in the exact same spot, and with similar unprecedented eye-popping numbers, and it really wasn't all that long ago... The lesson to be heeded and proactively preparing for is that no one stays at the top forever, and the mass consumer segment is probably the most fickle and "unloyal" of all). Anyway- despite not wearing suits, Apple has now pretty much become "The Man". They are now what they formerly always portrayed as the enemy.

I'd always kinda suspected that's what would happen IF they were the big kid on the block and no longer the cool counter-culture outsider, but it's weird to see it actually transpire.

 

[scottsjack]

Desktops are also on a massive decline. Just as tablets are replacing laptops, laptops have been replacing desktops. Look at how many people here are considering switching from a MP to a MBP, or have already done so.

We really are headed for the post-PC era.

You might pull your head out of the Apple sand and look around at the other 80% of the computer world. Powerful, configurable gaming desktop PCs are pretty hot right now. Massively powerful desktops can be built for about the price of a maxed out Mac mini.

Of course desktops are not as popular as they once were. Millions of people who would have been far better served by an iPad, a mini or even an iPhone had to buy desktops because that's all there was on the store shelf.

To reason that because those iPad, mini and iPhone customers now have the products that really fit their needs means that desktops are dead is just nutty. It's regurgitating the goofy Apple sales talk baloney as if what Apple wants to promote this year is somehow the actual reality around the world.

 

[akadmon]

The way I see it, everyone will eventually do their "computing" (web surfing, emailing, social networking, casual gaming) on tablet devices. This doesn't mean that despots (damn you autocorrect!), err desktops will go away. It remains to be seen if the winner will be a tower or an all-in-one, but even if it is the latter, it will have enough power to satisfy the needs of the most demanding content creators, engineers, scientists and actuaries. You will still be able to get a desktop in 2020, but it will cost you $5000+ in today's money. The loser in all of this? The laptop. - duh! It will be replaced by the tablet. The desktop is irreplacable.

 

[JAT]

Think about the amount of arm motion you'd be putting yourself through moving features around on a 27" screen with your hand. Compare that to the couple centimeter movements you make with your mouse. What you're talking about is an ergonomic nightmare. I'd give you a week, tops, and you'd be asking for that mouse back.

Ever seen a serious audio console? Piano? People use large devices.

Also, in terms of ergonomics, moving your whole arm is less dangerous than moving just your wrist repetitively. You may want to drop that mouse for a trackball or touchpad.

 

[zephonic]

Think about the amount of arm motion you'd be putting yourself through moving features around on a 27" screen with your hand. Compare that to the couple centimeter movements you make with your mouse. What you're talking about is an ergonomic nightmare. I'd give you a week, tops, and you'd be asking for that mouse back.

The mouse single-handedly (pun not intended) created a new phenomenon now known as RSI.

Five years into the iPhone today, and I have yet to hear of any physical complaints caused by the user interface.

And:

Ever seen a serious audio console? Piano? People use large devices.

Also, in terms of ergonomics, moving your whole arm is less dangerous than moving just your wrist repetitively.

This.

 

[ClassObject]

I love lamp

lamp is done. you should move on to acnf ( agnostic OS, concurrent server, NoSQL, functional programming ).

 

[JBazz]

I like many here was disappointed when there was no Macpro or iMac update. I was also suprised Apple released a class of laptop that doesnt seem to fulfill neither pro or consumer ie too locked down for a pro and too expensive for a consumer.

I am also suprised because I don't see why so much R&D is being put into laptops when trends point to tablets overtaking laptop sales in the near future. Infact it is already happening now, both big retailers such as Best Buy are seeing a 50% decline in laptop sales in favour of tablets and Tim Cook also said there is cannabalisation of their own laptop mac business due to the iPad. Obviously Apple doesn't mind this as long as people are replacing macbooks with iPads and not competing tablets.

I guess my point is I don't see why Apple isn't focusing on the desktop? There's still plenty that can be done to innovate in the desktop space, people will always need big screens and lots of storage space, people will always need lots of power for more demanding applications. The retina mbp with all the latest tech is still slower than a macpro from 4 years ago.

The laptop's time is limited, the iPad 3 has replaced my macbook pro and almost does everything I need from a mobile computer and then some, and it will only keep getting better. I feel the future is raw desktop power + super mobile tablets to cover all computing needs.

How long have you been following Apple? They rarely update the full line all at once. The desktop updates are coming.

The 15" MacBook pro seems to be their flagship. It seems to lead the way with updates. I remember the gnashing of teeth when it got a unibody upgrade and the 17" did not.

 

[Tiituli]

Originally Posted by wallysb01
"Think about the amount of arm motion you'd be putting yourself through moving features around on a 27" screen with your hand. Compare that to the couple centimeter movements you make with your mouse. What you're talking about is an ergonomic nightmare. I'd give you a week, tops, and you'd be asking for that mouse back."

... Not quite right, because for example the iPad's screen is a much better interface than a mouse. And, controlling a mixer with a mouse is not only a nightmare, it is impossible. That's why the current mixers are provided with more than just a few physical sliders, knobs and push-buttons.

I had a strong intuition the first moment I saw the iPad 1 that this will be great! And, now there are already so many musical apps doing just that, not mentioning all the other apps.

The iTable should be made durable enough so that you can rest your hands on it.

 

[Comeagain?]

For those of you who might be wondering what a serious console might look like, here are two "serious" consoles.

(Click for larger)

Yes, those are all touchscreens, and in the second picture, those are multi-touch. People spend all day using these consoles. I would love a horizontal iMac, running OS X.

 

[-hh]

You might pull your head out of the Apple sand and look around at the other 80% of the computer world. Powerful, configurable gaming desktop PCs are pretty hot right now...

That's a niche-of-a-niche, since even Windows PCs have crossed over the 50% hump in Laptop sales...way back in 2005.

The way I see it, everyone will eventually do their "computing" (web surfing, emailing, social networking, casual gaming) on tablet devices. This doesn't mean that despots (damn you autocorrect!), err desktops will go away. It remains to be seen if the winner will be a tower or an all-in-one, but even if it is the latter, it will have enough power to satisfy the needs of the most demanding content creators, engineers, scientists and actuaries. You will still be able to get a desktop in 2020, but it will cost you $5000+ in today's money. The loser in all of this? The laptop. - duh! It will be replaced by the tablet. The desktop is irreplacable.

Except that the desktop is being eaten away on all sides...tablets & laptops on the one end, and render farms on the other. Sure, it won't completely die, just as how one can still find line printers...but with the push back to a style of "thin client" as per the cloud, the demands for local storage are beginning to wane, and local CPU power will inevitably follow. This plays very nicely into corporate interests for advancing "Software as a Service" to assure a monthly revenue stream.

The mouse single-handedly (pun not intended) created a new phenomenon now known as RSI.

Sure, we're getting a high incidence of RSI today from IT, but for armchair historians, we find that medical problems associated with repetitive tasks go back through the Industrial Revolution; reportedly, it first appeared in world medical literature in the 17th century as an RSI that was then called "milkmaids' arm."


-hh

 

[salamatali]

The way I see it, everyone will eventually do their "computing" (web surfing, emailing, social networking, casual gaming) on tablet devices. This doesn't mean that despots (damn you autocorrect!), err desktops will go away. It remains to be seen if the winner will be a tower or an all-in-one, but even if it is the latter, it will have enough power to satisfy the needs of the most demanding content creators, engineers, scientists and actuaries. You will still be able to get a desktop in 2020, but it will cost you $5000+ in today's money. The loser in all of this? The laptop. - duh! It will be replaced by the tablet. The desktop is irreplacable.

The other reason I feel tablets will all but kill laptops is the fact that tablets are true lower power all day devices. I could barley get 4 hours of general use out of my MBP, fire up Final Cut or After Effects and I would be lucky to get 2 hours. My iPad 3 can last all day in general use and I think that is valuable for both pros and consumers.

It will be interesting to see what things are like in 5 years. I'm a betting man and I'd put money on desktops once again outselling laptops because laptops have been hit hard by ever more capable tablets and tablets can't really replace the desktop in it's current form.

----------

If there was a 27" table-top tablet with the same computing power as a MacPro what are the arguments for sticking with the old way of working?

I do music and audio, and I ca't wait for the major DAW makers to restructure their products for multi-touch. A nice big display lying on my desk at a 7-10 degree angle, moving virtual faders with my finger rather than with the mouse, zooming in on a wave form by pinching, swipe to switch between the arrange and mixer page....

I can just see it. The mouse and keyboard are clunky and clumsy in comparison.

this would be pretty amazing, for me it would have a wacom digitizer built in as well

 

[fastlanephil]

If there was a 27" table-top tablet with the same computing power as a MacPro what are the arguments for sticking with the old way of working?

I do music and audio, and I ca't wait for the major DAW makers to restructure their products for multi-touch. A nice big display lying on my desk at a 7-10 degree angle, moving virtual faders with my finger rather than with the mouse, zooming in on a wave form by pinching, swipe to switch between the arrange and mixer page....

I can just see it. The mouse and keyboard are clunky and clumsy in comparison.

Even with the angle there would be too much arm fatigue.

One solution might be a built-in powered motion sensitive pneumatic arm rest.

 

[26139]

Sure..

Fine. Now add iPhones and iPads.

Okay, but how many iPad and iPhone owners DON'T also use/own a laptop?

Sales figures for iPhones/iPads aren't as important as sales figures for people that own an iPhone/iPad and no other computing device.

We're a long way from that one.

 

[wallysb01]

The mouse single-handedly (pun not intended) created a new phenomenon now known as RSI.

Five years into the iPhone today, and I have yet to hear of any physical complaints caused by the user interface.

That's because its an iPhone and you neither use it for as long as you would a mouse, and its all of 4" across. Not comparable.

The mouse is by no means perfect, but picking up your hand and moving a foot back and forth over a 27" screen is going to be much worse. Plus there is the head position issue. You could put your screen down at a 7-10 degree angle now, but you don't because looking down as not as ergonomically as keeping your head and neck inline with your spine. You'll be slumping over, repeatedly forced to pick your arm up....we'll chiropractors will like this idea.

Now, if you're talking strictly about replacing some other large, clunky console. Ok, sure that would probably be better. But do you really expect Apple to build this thing for your little niche? Its going to have to be something that works for a substantial part of the market to be sold by a company like Apple, and this product would not.

----------

One solution might be a built-in powered motion sensitive pneumatic arm rest.

Or it could read your mind.

 

[zephonic]

Sure, we're getting a high incidence of RSI today from IT, but for armchair historians, we find that medical problems associated with repetitive tasks go back through the Industrial Revolution; reportedly, it first appeared in world medical literature in the 17th century as an RSI that was then called "milkmaids' arm."

I knew someone would bring that up! I think I can weasel my way out of this by saying that even though RSI-like symptoms have been around much longer, it wasn't until mouse-related complaints emerged that they started calling it R.S.I.

The mouse is by no means perfect, but picking up your hand and moving a foot back and forth over a 27" screen is going to be much worse. Plus there is the head position issue. You could put your screen down at a 7-10 degree angle now, but you don't because looking down as not as ergonomically as keeping your head and neck inline with your spine. You'll be slumping over, repeatedly forced to pick your arm up....we'll chiropractors will like this idea.

No, you keep your elbows rested on the desk or (like a console) on a padded armrest. That works fine in many different situations, from air traffic control to mixing consoles and so much more.

Now, if you're talking strictly about replacing some other large, clunky console. Ok, sure that would probably be better. But do you really expect Apple to build this thing for your little niche? Its going to have to be something that works for a substantial part of the market to be sold by a company like Apple, and this product would not.

Of course, Apple is not gonna build that. All they need to do is build a larger and more powerful tablet, and third-parties will take care of the rest.

And it doesn't even need to be an Apple device. In fact, it most likely won't be. I think there is a much greater chance that this will happen in a Windows (or maybe Android or another flavor of Linux) environment, due to its open nature. Just about all of my stuff is cross-platform and most of it is reported to work better on Windows, anyway.

I like OSX because it enhances my workflow. If another platform enhances my workflow even more, I will switch,

 

[Comeagain?]

Psst...it has been made...

 

[zephonic]

Yeah, the idea is there, but 1920x1080 for a 40" screen? And dual-core Athlons aren't exactly workstation power. I played around with one of its predecessors in an MS store last year, and it was nowhere near as snappy and seamless as the iPad. Hope this will be better.

Most importantly, current applications would need to be recoded and optimized for multi-touch, as they are right now they'd be a major pain to use on a touch display.

 

[dbit]

Honestly the ipad interface is great for reading, light browsing, etc. but even just doing online research, which I do 4 out of 7 nights a week on an ipad, gets frustrating with the touch interface. I can do things ten times faster using a keyboard and mouse, and gain much advantage from big screens and a multi-app/multi-window environment.

I can't believe people think you can actually do productive work on an ipad. I understand these devices will get more powerful in the future, but honestly the size and the interface leave much to be desired for real work. Even typing an email in on the onscreen keyboard takes forever and is far from accurate.

I love my ipad for reading books, articles, and simple web browsing, but for anything more intensive it's an exercise in frustration.

 

[wallysb01]

No, you keep your elbows rested on the desk or (like a console) on a padded armrest. That works fine in many different situations, from air traffic control to mixing consoles and so much more.

That's fine for limited range of motion, but its simply geometrically impossible for such a positioning to cover the screen without moving your elbows. Draw it out. You have two arms with a specific radius and and wrist that allows you to cover a specific range around that radius trying to cover a rectangular object that is quite sizable. I'd bet you couldn't even cover a 15" laptop screen in a position like that without moving your elbows to reach certain parts of the screen.

It could work if you only have to cover certain places a large majority of the time, but with a computer screen, I at least access nearly all of it at a pretty good high frequency.

Of course, Apple is not gonna build that. All they need to do is build a larger and more powerful tablet, and third-parties will take care of the rest.

I actually don't see how the tablet fits in. A 27" anything is not a tablet anymore. You might as well just have this 27" touch screen plugged into your mac pro, cuz you aren't bringing it with you.

And it doesn't even need to be an Apple device. In fact, it most likely won't be. I think there is a much greater chance that this will happen in a Windows (or maybe Android or another flavor of Linux) environment, due to its open nature. Just about all of my stuff is cross-platform and most of it is reported to work better on Windows, anyway.

I like OSX because it enhances my workflow. If another platform enhances my workflow even more, I will switch,

Don't get me wrong, if it works for you, great, buy such a thing. I'm sure it will be out there (I'm sure it already is to a certain extent). But its not going to be anything more than a niche product thanks to the added stress it would put on 'most' users.

 

[phyrexia]

I run a Midas Venice 320 and a Soundcraft Spirit multiple nights a week (these are 'serious consoles' but not digital consoles).

One should take note that while the screens on the units you've posted are indeed touch sensitive, no real work happens by interacting with the touch screen. There's an array of real faders and rotary encoders which are actually used to *do stuff*. The touchscreen is basically there to supplement the interface, and to remove the need for 128 columns of channels with 16 knobs each. Pick a group of channels, adjust those channels with real physical controls.

Tactile feedback will always be required, and until we have display technology bordering on magic (today anyway), touchscreens will never be complete replacements for many facets of computing. Even the Control Surface apps for iOS are as frustrating as they are fun, for this reason.

People do spend hours working on these, but they don't spend hours touching the screen. The time is spent manipulating the buttons, faders, and knobs you see on those consoles.

For those of you who might be wondering what a serious console might look like, here are two "serious" consoles.

(Click for larger)

Yes, those are all touchscreens, and in the second picture, those are multi-touch. People spend all day using these consoles. I would love a horizontal iMac, running OS X.

 

[Comeagain?]

I run a Midas Venice 320 and a Soundcraft Spirit multiple nights a week (these are 'serious consoles' but not digital consoles).

One should take note that while the screens on the units you've posted are indeed touch sensitive, no real work happens by interacting with the touch screen. There's an array of real faders and rotary encoders which are actually used to *do stuff*. The touchscreen is basically there to supplement the interface, and to remove the need for 128 columns of channels with 16 knobs each. Pick a group of channels, adjust those channels with real physical controls.

Tactile feedback will always be required, and until we have display technology bordering on magic (today anyway), touchscreens will never be complete replacements for many facets of computing. Even the Control Surface apps for iOS are as frustrating as they are fun, for this reason.

People do spend hours working on these, but they don't spend hours touching the screen. The time is spent manipulating the buttons, faders, and knobs you see on those consoles.

I just picked those consoles because we had been talking about touchscreens. I'd also say that quite a bit goes on with the touch screens on the grandMA. Most of the interface requires the touchscreens. Same with the Eos line, but I see your point. Either way, tactical feedback will always be a necessity. You need to be able to instantly grab a fader, and waiting for it to register isn't an option.

 

[Chrisg2014]

While you may feel the Retina MacBook Pro satisfies neither consumers nor professionals, the fact that there's still a 3-4 week wait for one, while all other Mac laptops are available for immediate shipping would indicate your understanding of the needs and wants of the market is perhaps not as advanced as Apple's.

Furthermore, the only reason tablets are seen as cannibalizing laptop sales over desktop sales is that laptops have ALREADY cannibalized desktop sales.

I just want to say that Apple is know for not making enough stuff so it has a little inventory as possible in it's supply chain to make more money. ie the 3-4 week wait.

 

[theSeb]

You might pull your head out of the Apple sand and look around at the other 80% of the computer world. Powerful, configurable gaming desktop PCs are pretty hot right now. Massively powerful desktops can be built for about the price of a maxed out Mac mini.

No, they simply are not. PC gaming is on a massive decline. Console gaming is killing pc gaming.

Your second statement: no, you can't, unless your definition of massively powerful is different to mine.

I am not sure where you get your facts from.

 

[xgman]

Desktops will become a niche market. That doesn't mean they won't or shouldn't exist. Question is will Apple participate in that niche market. Apple started as a niche market. I pretty sure they have enjoyed moving away from that financially.

 

[philipma1957]

No, they simply are not. PC gaming is on a massive decline. Console gaming is killing pc gaming.

Your second statement: no, you can't, unless your definition of massively powerful is different to mine.

I am not sure where you get your facts from.

An apple store max mac mini is over 2k. the server with 2x ssds from apple is about 2200. yeah I can the refurb for 850 drop in 2x 512 crucial ssds for 800 and 16gb ram for 100 that is about 1800 for top of the line mac mini. What can you build for a hi-end pc at 1800?

I agree with the seb.

my defintion of massive powerful would be 2x six cpus and a hi end gpu with 32gb ram minimum and at least 1 512gb ssd. not sure if that can be made for 1800.