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What about a new desktop line instead of 3?
Take Cinema Display,maybe introducin back the 24,or the 21 and the itv,
so you could have a 21-24,27,32-40?
then unify makin modular the mini with the Mac pro,
(maybe through a pci link by means of a "Thunderbolt 3"?)
make a Gpu external box,wipe out totally the Imac line and you have two lines,
one for the displays and one for the desktops.
 
An apple store max mac mini is over 2k. the server with 2x ssds from apple is about 2200. yeah I can the refurb for 850 drop in 2x 512 crucial ssds for 800 and 16gb ram for 100 that is about 1800 for top of the line mac mini. What can you build for a hi-end pc at 1800?

I agree with the seb.

my defintion of massive powerful would be 2x six cpus and a hi end gpu with 32gb ram minimum and at least 1 512gb ssd. not sure if that can be made for 1800.

Really? For 1800 I could build a sick gaming PC. You don't want or need 2x Hex for gaming. You also don't need or want more than 16GB memory. Stupid overkill. It has been shown an i5-2500 is faster than a i7-980x or even the i7-2600 in games and they are faster than any Mac Mini part.
i5-2500K OC'd to 4.0GHz on air
12GB Memory
GTX 680
That's under 1000.00 easy. I think I can get a case, PSU, and cables for 800.00. Maybe even get a 2nd GTX 680 or a top screen or SSD.
It would absolutely tear up a Mac Mini "Maxed".
It would tear up ANY Apple offering in Games and most but the 6-core and 12-core Mac Pro's in everything else.
Try not to get into a value argument with PC's over Mac's power vs. power. Mac's loose most everytime. Not always but usually.
 
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What about a new desktop line instead of 3?
Take Cinema Display,maybe introducin back the 24,or the 21 and the itv,
so you could have a 21-24,27,32-40?
then unify makin modular the mini with the Mac pro,
(maybe through a pci link by means of a "Thunderbolt 3"?)
make a Gpu external box,wipe out totally the Imac line and you have two lines,
one for the displays and one for the desktops.

That sounds incredibly complicated and un-apple-esk. And why would they want to stop selling the iMac?
 
Don't know^^ i don't even understand why we haven't had any Imac updates since the last Wwdc while some speculated on Imac ending too and we still don't have any Thunderbolt support for the Mac Pro...,
the only thing we "know" is..something will eventually happen on 2013...
so i started to dream wildy^^,just to know your vision...about it.
For example MacPro 2013 will eventually been shrinked?less pci slots?will eventually use Thunderbolt at 10x?
And except the thunderbolt one,and the cpus all this really takes over a year to come?
I don't understand Apple too,as i don't understand the -1,but thanks.^^
 
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Honestly the ipad interface is great for reading, light browsing, etc. but even just doing online research, which I do 4 out of 7 nights a week on an ipad, gets frustrating with the touch interface. I can do things ten times faster using a keyboard and mouse, and gain much advantage from big screens and a multi-app/multi-window environment.

I can't believe people think you can actually do productive work on an ipad. I understand these devices will get more powerful in the future, but honestly the size and the interface leave much to be desired for real work. Even typing an email in on the onscreen keyboard takes forever and is far from accurate.

I love my ipad for reading books, articles, and simple web browsing, but for anything more intensive it's an exercise in frustration.

I agree with you 100%. I really must admit that I don't like the way Apple forces you into the products they like to develop because they make more profit building them. When Apple no longer satisfies my need for powerful pro desktops, I will look at somebody that does. This is creeping closer with every desktop they release. They have dumbed down OSX to the point i'm beginning to dislike the Mac OS. The autosave is a joke! I have just bought a high end Mac Pro. It was delivered completely configured wrong. Unless the next Mac Pro really knocks my socks off, I'll be looking at a Windows workstation next.
 
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Really? For 1800 I could build a sick gaming PC. You don't want or need 2x Hex for gaming. You also don't need or want more than 16GB memory. Stupid overkill. It has been shown an i5-2500 is faster than a i7-980x or even the i7-2600 in games and they are faster than any Mac Mini part.
i5-2500K OC'd to 4.0GHz on air
12GB Memory
GTX 680
That's under 1000.00 easy. I think I can get a case, PSU, and cables for 800.00. Maybe even get a 2nd GTX 680 or a top screen or SSD.
It would absolutely tear up a Mac Mini "Maxed".
It would tear up ANY Apple offering in Games and most but the 6-core and 12-core Mac Pro's in everything else.
Try not to get into a value argument with PC's over Mac's power vs. power. Mac's loose most everytime. Not always but usually.


Let's go back for a moment.

scottsjack: You might pull your head out of the Apple sand and look around at the other 80% of the computer world. Powerful, configurable gaming desktop PCs are pretty hot right now

Me: No, they simply are not. PC gaming is on a massive decline. Console gaming is killing pc gaming.

scottsjack: Massively powerful desktops can be built for about the price of a maxed out Mac mini.

Me: no, you can't, unless your definition of massively powerful is different to mine.

PC gaming is on a decline. I don't think anybody can argue this and bring facts to the table to back up a counter argument.

As for the second bit, it seems like we're now arguing over semantics. We can argue over what is a maxed out mini, but I didn't think anybody actually buys SSD and RAM upgrades from Apple, especially with a Mini, but I wouldn't consider anything that I can build (really? Does everyone have the time for this? I could in high school and university, but now? Not so much) or buy for $1800 to be massively powerful. I am also confused why we're discussing gaming machines on a Mac Pro forum where I have to take "massively powerful" in the right context of this sub-forum.
 
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Really? For 1800 I could build a sick gaming PC. You don't want or need 2x Hex for gaming. You also don't need or want more than 16GB memory. Stupid overkill. It has been shown an i5-2500 is faster than a i7-980x or even the i7-2600 in games and they are faster than any Mac Mini part.
i5-2500K OC'd to 4.0GHz on air
12GB Memory
GTX 680
That's under 1000.00 easy. I think I can get a case, PSU, and cables for 800.00. Maybe even get a 2nd GTX 680 or a top screen or SSD.
It would absolutely tear up a Mac Mini "Maxed".
It would tear up ANY Apple offering in Games and most but the 6-core and 12-core Mac Pro's in everything else.
Try not to get into a value argument with PC's over Mac's power vs. power. Mac's loose most everytime. Not always but usually.

Yes, that will work just fine.
I'm waiting to see if Mountain Lion will bring the GTX 680 to the MP. If not, I'll buy a PC with specs similar to yours.

I am also confused why we're discussing gaming machines on a Mac Pro forum where I have to take "massively powerful" in the right context of this sub-forum.

I use OS X for pro applications and I use boot camp (Win7) for gaming, well, actually one game, X-Plane 10.
 
Let's go back for a moment.
Let's also realize my response was not directed towards you. It was in response to philipma1957 and the question of what can be bought for the same money of a maxed out mini and how comparable it would be.
But while we are at it.
Console killing the PC is a death knell banged every year. It has not happened. Millions and millions of people play games on PC's. Most people have PC's and consoles. They can choose what they want to play on. For me and others it is pretty simple and relates to what games you even play. If you play 1st person shooters on a console you are playing with arm and leg braces on maybe even "head gear". That is a fact demonstrated by the games refusal to let mouse players play with controllers as they get destroyed. Not fair. Some people like playing to the top of their game while others like sitting on a couch and kicking back with a controller. 5 years ago consoles were stronger than they are right now. It goes in stages. Your comment this year is wrong. Next year and after console HW refreshes maybe it will be correct that "Console gaming is killing PC gaming". But I have been around way to long and that phrase is used every year for at least the last 15. Apple is selling more desktops than ever before (along with other itoys and everything else). If they really wanted to own the market they drop the price a few hundred dollars, offer EFI based cards when they come out from major manufacturers and they will single handily decimate the PC HW channels. Games are ALL GPU bound. Nothing now days is CPU bound.

----------

Maybe you can indeed do that, but I can't list that as "minimum system requirements" for someone who wants to buy a rig to run my software....

Yes...wait. what?
 
Let's also realize my response was not directed towards you. It was in response to philipma1957 and the question of what can be bought for the same money of a maxed out mini and how comparable it would be.
But while we are at it.
Console killing the PC is a death knell banged every year. It has not happened. Millions and millions of people play games on PC's. Most people have PC's and consoles. They can choose what they want to play on. For me and others it is pretty simple and relates to what games you even play. If you play 1st person shooters on a console you are playing with arm and leg braces on maybe even "head gear". That is a fact demonstrated by the games refusal to let mouse players play with controllers as they get destroyed. Not fair. Some people like playing to the top of their game while others like sitting on a couch and kicking back with a controller. 5 years ago consoles were stronger than they are right now. It goes in stages. Your comment this year is wrong. Next year and after console HW refreshes maybe it will be correct that "Console gaming is killing PC gaming". But I have been around way to long and that phrase is used every year for at least the last 15. Apple is selling more desktops than ever before (along with other itoys and everything else). If they really wanted to own the market they drop the price a few hundred dollars, offer EFI based cards when they come out from major manufacturers and they will single handily decimate the PC HW channels. Games are ALL GPU bound. Nothing now days is CPU bound.

----------



Yes...wait. what?

I've been playing games since 1986 so I also have seen the market's rises and falls for some time now (yes, I am still a kid at heart). The pc gaming death bell has been ringing in similar tones to the death of the optical media wagon. The truth of the matter is that optical media is still very much alive, despite the predictions and digital media only outsold optical for the first time in 2011, but it is dropping year by year, whilst digital keeps increasing.

I must admit though that I have not been following the gaming market very closely for a couple of months now and a quick google reveals that the pc gaming market is enjoying a bit of a resurgence right now, but I think your comment about the overdue console refreshes has something to do with that is spot on. I am not one of those people that runs around suggesting that the desktop is dead, because it is just plain silly.

Oh, mouse and keyboard wins every time :) I don't even bother playing FPS on a console since it's just too painful.
 
I've been playing games since 1986 so I also have seen the market's rises and falls for some time now (yes, I am still a kid at heart). The pc gaming death bell has been ringing in similar tones to the death of the optical media wagon. The truth of the matter is that optical media is still very much alive, despite the predictions and digital media only outsold optical for the first time in 2011, but it is dropping year by year, whilst digital keeps increasing.

I must admit though that I have not been following the gaming market very closely for a couple of months now and a quick google reveals that the pc gaming market is enjoying a bit of a resurgence right now, but I think your comment about the overdue console refreshes has something to do with that is spot on. I am not one of those people that runs around suggesting that the desktop is dead, because it is just plain silly.

Oh, mouse and keyboard wins every time :) I don't even bother playing FPS on a console since it's just too painful.

Let's hug:)
 
hey do I get to hug too? LOL.



btw I just purchased this cpu

http://www.provantage.com/intel-cm8063701212200s~7ITEP3PC.htm

this case

http://www.amazon.com/Silverstone-G...41276119&sr=8-1&keywords=silverstone+tek+gd08

this gpu

http://www.amazon.com/Sapphire-Ulti...6162&sr=1-1&keywords=sapphire+hd7750+ultimate


windows 7 pro


4x 4gb sticks of samsung 1600 ram.


and This mobo



http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...NodeId=1&Description=asus+thunderbolt&x=0&y=0

or I may wait for gigabytes dual thunderbolt mobo



my goal is a very powerful htpc this quiet with lots of storage and a little bit of gaming.

this machine could be made into a hackintosh and it is not crazy expensive.


this case is 150 windows pro is 140 the gpu is 325 the ram is 100 the gpu is 125

that is 825 or so. 1 crucial m4 ssd at 370 puts me at 1195. I will then keep adding ssds for storage slow but sure.


now quiet is my goal , but swap the t cpu for the k model and get a good 670 card for 375 you are at 1550 with the big ssd. you have a smoking good machine.
 
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It is true that tablets and smart phones are sufficient for people who do not need much computing power and who just need to surf the web, to send and receive emails, to check weather forecasts and stocks, etc.

For many occupations, laptops and/or desktops are a must. People who are working in those occupations still need laptops and/or desktops.

If I am allowed to define the post-PC era, I would like to say that the post-PC era is a time period during which people often use laptops and/or desktops to do professional work while people often use tablets and/or smart phones and/or other mobile devices to do non-professional work; however, people may also use laptops and/or desktops to do nonprofessional work and use tablets and/or smart phones and/or other mobile devices to do professional work.

Laptops and/or desktops in some form will survive along with all the mobile devices.

To encourage Apple to put more R&D into desktop computers, the desktop computer users may consider stopping using Apple mobile devices and also provide input to family members and friends so that they will not use Apple mobile devices. This way, the percentage of the revenue from mobile devices will decrease. When the revenue from desktop computers is comparable with that from mobile devices, Apple will also share equally its R&D dollars between desktop computers and mobile devices.
 
Desktops are the thing of the past not laptops. Most people don't want computers to take that much space at their home and they still want the portability of being able to decide to take a laptop if needed for trips or other things that a tablet still cannot perform as good.
 
Desktops are the thing of the past not laptops. Most people don't want computers to take that much space at their home and they still want the portability of being able to decide to take a laptop if needed for trips or other things that a tablet still cannot perform as good.

true in part. I am 55 I have worked with computers since 1975. If I am lucky I will keep my health and live til 85.

I stay home a lot. My work is in my house and I travel for fun. Also my eyes have had double cataract surgery that worked great for far great for medium and okay for close. Ie big screens work very well for me. little screens well I can't say what I do with a straw (begins with s) .

I have a cell phone a magellan for local trips in state. my needs for a tablet or a laptop do exsist but for 10 to 15 days a year.

so for me desktop/all- in-one will be needed. not a laptop or tablet.

Everyone that says tablet laptop is not wrong, but just have eyes that don't need a big screen.
 
true in part. I am 55 I have worked with computers since 1975. If I am lucky I will keep my health and live til 85.
...

You can always buy a big display and hook it up to your laptop or even to your TV, a desktop tower is not really needed unless you do computer intensive work.
 
It is true that tablets and smart phones are sufficient for people who do not need much computing power and who just need to surf the web, to send and receive emails, to check weather forecasts and stocks, etc.

This is a dubious and myopic viewpoint. Tablets and smart phones aren't "stuck" on some performance curve. It is more so people who are stuck on performance boundaries (e.g., have a fixed set of major apps they need and the work they need done is either constant or growing in demands at a relatively slow rate). The devices are getting better over time. Much better.

For example a Newton from 1994 couldn't possible surf the modern web (with HTML 5, javascript , java, and Flash ) well. Likewise could not deal with the common very large email messages. The Newton from 1994 couldn't run something like Photoshop 3.0 (when it picked up layers).

In contrast, the iPad does those things easily. It runs an Adobe Photoshop Express & Touch which in combination is more than competitive with Photoshop 3.0 on pre 2000 era hardware.

The amount of "computing power" that can be delivered in a smaller form factor expands every year.

The phones and iOS tablets are more limited by in device storage space than by computational limits.



For many occupations, laptops and/or desktops are a must. People who are working in those occupations still need laptops and/or desktops.

The work they need to get done is a must. The specific form factor of their tools isn't. There are relatively few occupations that absolutely require a "box with slots" of the size and dimensions of approximately a Mac II.


If I am allowed to define the post-PC era, I would like to say that the post-PC era is a time period during which people often use laptops and/or desktops

the Post-PC era is the era where people stop pigeon-holing personal computers are a legacy DOS/Windows Box with slots. Where the form factor of the first IBM PC and the early Compaq "luggables" drive the title of Personal Computer. It is the era where the computer truly become personal because the majority of the people on the planet can afford and have one; not just some relative elite few. It will be the "personal computer" era which will be "Post-Windows PC" era.


Laptops and/or desktops in some form will survive along with all the mobile devices.

They will survive. Just as Mainframes, Supercomputers , and "mini-computers" (large servers ... mini relative to the mainframes ) survived.
Right sized tool for the right job.


To encourage Apple to put more R&D into desktop computers, the desktop computer users may consider stopping using Apple mobile devices and also provide input to family members and friends so that they will not use Apple mobile devices.

This is a poster child for the "If all you have is a hammer everything is a nail" syndrome. It is wrong. Right tool for the right job. Apple is never going to bend to this, because few are going to throw themselves under to bus just so a disproportionally small group of folks can get a disproportionally large share of the R&D money. What you are asking folks to do is screw up their computer selection so you can have a better one. That's narcissistic, not a likely market force.


Apple will also share equally its R&D dollars between desktop computers and mobile devices.

The iOS products aren't really mobile devices. They are mobile computers.

And no the iOS products purpose is at Apple is not to raise money for Mac Pro R&D. Neither is the reverse. They are both products that generate enough money for their own R&D that serve different computer markets growing at different rates.

The R&D fund/defund rate is driven far more by the underlying markets grow rate and grow potential. If want to change Mac Pro R&D, folks would better served by finding new customers/jobs for which the Mac Pro is the most appropriate tool for the job. Not just the box that most resembles the computers from the past so "should buy it".
 
Don't know^^ i don't even understand why we haven't had any Imac updates since the last Wwdc while some speculated on Imac ending too

The iMac is late largely because Intel and GPU vendors were late. That ran the new Mac rollouts into the Mountain Lion launch window and created a logjam. Strategically it was more important to get the laptops out at WWDC so Apple used their limited launch window to get those out the door.

The iMac and mini probably won't have "Retina Displays" for software developers to adjust their apps to. The laptops did.

After Mountain Lion releases there will likely be a iMac and mini update.

The speculation on iMac ending was more confusion (over major Mac Pro upgrade specifically being delayed to 2013) than anything relevant. Perpetrating those speculations had any relevance at all is likely one cause of the -1 ratings.

and we still don't have any Thunderbolt support for the Mac Pro...,

Thunderbolt for the Mac Pro isn't necessary. If there was a Mac Pro with Xeon E5's , USB 3.0 , and across the board better benchmarks only the chronic complainers would be whining.

It is a "nice to have" feature... not necessary. If Apple had released a Mac Pro with the same dated core features ( pre Xeon E5 CPUs, two year old GPUs, no SATA III , no USB 3.0) and had only added Thunderbolt, only the Apple kool-aid drinkers would be happy.

The Mac Pro isn't about Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt is something the mini , iMac , and laptops need to be more competitive with the "generic boxes with slots" at their respective price points. It doesn't really do much at the Mac Pro price point and core target market.
 
Well,a new rumors points to Fall Imac release,
http://www.tapscape.com/2012-imac-production-ramp/
I understand,Thunderbolt on Mac Pro isn't a real need (you have real Pci slots )but this makes impossibile for you to have Cinema Display coupled,isn'it?
Vendors are delayn Imacs?Maybe,but 680m/7970m are you,so does IvyBridge too,Usb3,Cactus ridge Tb.
Its seems to me more Apple related.
And speaking about Apple,what will be the new innovations next Mac Pro wll take with?
Redesign,over a year,after having spent two for just a Cpu Bump?
Or does Apple become more and more I-toyzed?
I hope not.
 
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I am also suprised because I don't see why so much R&D is being put into laptops when trends point to tablets overtaking laptop sales in the near future.

One factor why the laptops are loosing is because real innovation in Laptops stagnated. That is exactly why the R&D needed to be stepped up.
Intel stepped up with the "Ultrabook" funding effort and with better components to make laptops more competitive. The idea is to close the weight and size gap between the larger tablets and laptops, but not give up any of the performance gap that laptops enjoy over tablets.

For the most part that is approach seems to be working. Tablets somewhat helped wiped out the netbooks hypergrowth, but pushing regular laptops down in price to make room for the Ultrabooks is stabilizing the laptop losses. The crappy laptops loose out to tablets partially because the tablets aren't crappy (low quality) devices.

I guess my point is I don't see why Apple isn't focusing on the desktop? There's still plenty that can be done to innovate in the desktop space, people will always need big screens and lots of storage space,

Big screens and a bunch of drive sleds is innovation?

There really isn't much innovation in desktops at all. Between copying laptop attributes ( all-in-one) or server attributes ( multiple cores , coooling techniques , RAS (reliability , availability, service ) features , etc. ) it is pretty much anyone with a trusty screwdriver can enter the business. Buy a case, motherboard , and components .... ta da ... Bubba Gump's desktop box.

If all trying to do is mimic the "big powerful computers" then it has already been done by the previous generations of "big powerful computers".
It might to 'new' to a desktop class sized box, but it isn't novel and a huge stretch to label as innovative.
 
Well,a new rumors points to Fall Imac release,

I doubt it will be Fall. The Fall rumors tend to be intermixed with "Apple has to put Retina displays on the iMac". That's dubious. It is far more likely the iMac and Mini are like last year's Mini and awaiting the new OS to release ( along with Intel and GPU vendors catching up with demand for their new offerings).

Unless Apple is went back to the drawing board is trying to replicate the ease of maintenance of the HP Z1 for the iMac... there is little need to delay till Fall.


and i understand,Thunderbolt on Mac Pro isn't a real need but this makes impossibile for you to have Cinema Display coupled,isn'it?

No. The LED Cinema Display

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MC007LL/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ

works just fine with a Mac Pro. It really isn't designed for a Mac Pro, but if "have to have" Apple logo on your Mac Pro display it is a 'good enough' solution.

It isn't the Mac Pro's job to sell the Thunderbolt "display". The TB "display" is really a docking station with a display panel built in. The Mac Pro doesn't have a deep need for a docking station. Laptops , yes. Mini, maybe. Mac Pro, no.

There are over a dozen high quality monitors you can hook to a Mac Pro. Apple doesn't have to spend much R&D on solving that "problem". Several 3rd party vendors already do. If some Mac Pro users buy laptop docking stations to use as displays for their Mac Pro, then that is just "extra gravy" profits for Apple. It isn't a strategic objective.
 
Sorry,didn't know this,i thought Apple wasn't selling anymore but thunderbolt.
I know there are a lot of Non Apple Gorgeous monitor,it was just to stay related to Apple,for example i have Samsung 24 inch Led display on my Desk.
 
You might pull your head out of the Apple sand and look around at the other 80% of the computer world. Powerful, configurable gaming desktop PCs are pretty hot right now.

Are they indeed? I thought "gaming" was just restricted to a very tiny group of people. Now your friends might all be picked from that tiny group of people, but if you just ask their siblings, parents, aunts, uncles and so on what computers they use, your view might change.
 
You can always buy a big display and hook it up to your laptop or even to your TV, a desktop tower is not really needed unless you do computer intensive work.

yes you can but a good laptop runs 2k and is noisy if I watch a movie I

will hear its fans.

I can build a good pc for 1k buy a cheap laptop 400 or 500 for the rare mobile use I do. I am not knocking users of mobile gear if they need to do so and many people have to do mobile computing every day.

I don't and there are a lot of people like myself. With some coin and not much need for mobile gear. All in ones and desktops will stick around.
 
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