Spoilers Dune Books and Movie Talk

[Huntn]

I have started reading Dune Messiah and first off, wow a substantial leap made from the former to this. I approve!

One of the critiques I almost leveled at the movie in post 23 was how the Guild Navigators were portrayed. In the original Dune book, I want to say the Guild navigators were men and looked like men, although altered men. Now without going back and rereading it, it is possible there were Guild representatives but not navigators themselves. In the book Dune Messiah, the Navigators are described just like they appeared in the movie, floating in orange spice gas in an enclosure.

 

[Huntn]

Brought over from the movie thread:

Chalamet does seem versatile and I hope he will pick scripts carefully as he gains prominence. He's already gathered a following and he's done a lot of noticed work recently... I mean I think we can call a nomination for an Oscar getting some notice. It can go to a person's head in the hands of the wrong agents (and "friends"). Time will tell.

If he's going to play in Dune, I hope Chalemet does well and as you say it would seem to depend mostly on the script and whether Villeneuve can maintain his own track record with it. Not sure whether people will be comparing his take versus book or v previous film/TV efforts.

Somewhere I read that the music for Villeneuve's Dune will have been scored by Hans Zimmer, who worked w/ Benjamin Wallfisch on music for Blade Runner 2024 (talk about rewrites or let's say flattering expansion in the case of building on the original music for Blade Runner). Zimmer had apparently elected to do the honors for Dune instead of some other movie he was offered to work on at the time just because he loved Dune the book. Sounds promising...


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EDIT: now this I would find interesting.


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Speaking of the Dune movie, I’m into Dune Messiah (the book) and there is naked sword fighting with Paul’s sister challenging an AI trainer after she experiences longing for a mate, a significant person in her future with significant ramifications for her brother’s empire. No it’s not gratuitous, believe it or not, lol. Fingers crossed we’ll see this. Of course if the new 2020 movie is a hit, I’ll project we’ll see the Dune Messiah movie.

 

[rhett7660]

I have started reading Dune Messiah and first off, wow a substantial leap made from the former to this. I approve!

One of the critiques I almost leveled at the movie in post 23 was how the Guild Navigators were portrayed. In the original Dune book, I want to say the Guild navigators were men and looked like men, although altered men. Now without going back and rereading it, it is possible there were Guild representatives but not navigators themselves. In the book Dune Messiah, the Navigators are described just like they appeared in the movie, floating in orange spice gas in an enclosure.

View attachment 893533​

That is interesting... your exact response to the book and to the movie was the same as mine. This makes sense as I wonder if they pulled items from the other books. I am sure there was more, but I haven't seen the movie in a very long time. I just remembered reading it and wondering where the heck is the big floating creature at! Well that sort of explains it.

 

[TonyM42]

Dune book brilliant; 1984 movie crap. End of.

 

[mikzn]

Speaking of the Dune movie, I’m into Dune Messiah (the book) and there is naked sword fighting with Paul’s sister challenging an AI trainer after she experiences longing for a mate, a significant person in her future with significant ramifications for her brother’s empire. No it’s not gratuitous, believe it or not, lol. Fingers crossed we’ll see this. Of course if the new 2020 movie is a hit, I’ll project we’ll see the Dune Messiah movie.

my understanding is that the new movie will be half of the first "Dune" book so a sequel will most likely be the remainder of the first book ?

 

[Huntn]

my understanding is that the new movie will be half of the first "Dune" book so a sequel will most likely be the remainder of the first book ?

Hmm, did you read the book? This story seems to me like it could be told in 1 three hour movie, but I would not object to 2 movies. I’m trying to figure out where they’d chop it. If that guess is accurate, my guess:

Spoiler

1) After the upheaval, after Paul and Jessica meet the the Fremen or 2) he rides a worm. The thing is the latter option is 2/3 of the book.

.

 

[D.T.]

Did you see my post about Dune? Different thread? Should I paste it here?
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Chalamet is going to be playing Paul Atreides, in Denis Villeneuve's 2020 Dune film, and that seems like genius casting (from my "head canon" of how Paul should look, and he seems like an outstanding actor). Pretty stoked, Villeneuve has been knocking it out of the park: Prisoners, Enemy, Sicario, Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 - that's a heck of a resume.

Dune, as written, is almost unfilmable, I think Villeneuve has the eye for epic, sci-fi grandeur, but it will be successful or not based on the script (I mean, all elements are important, but the source requires a significant rewrite).

 

[rhett7660]

Dune book brilliant; 1984 movie crap. End of.

I actually didn't like the book or the movie... I commented on the book in the book reading thread once I finished it. There were a few parts I really had to push through in order to finish the book. I have not read any of the other books in the series though.

 

[AustinIllini]

If someone is going to do a Dune movie right, it's going to be Denis Villeneuve.

The 1984 one was horrible.

 

[Huntn]

Did you see my post about Dune? Different thread? Should I paste it here?
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Chalamet is going to be playing Paul Atreides, in Denis Villeneuve's 2020 Dune film, and that seems like genius casting (from my "head canon" of how Paul should look, and he seems like an outstanding actor). Pretty stoked, Villeneuve has been knocking it out of the park: Prisoners, Enemy, Sicario, Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 - that's a heck of a resume.

Dune, as written, is almost unfilmable, I think Villeneuve has the eye for epic, sci-fi grandeur, but it will be successful or not based on the script (I mean, all elements are important, but the source requires a significant rewrite).

Why do you consider Dune as written unfilmable? I found the narrative to be smooth, logical, consistent, and an easy read moving from the start to the ending. My comments about the 1984 movie are here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/dune-books-and-movie-talk.2219065/post-28201738

I actually didn't like the book or the movie... I commented on the book in the book reading thread once I finished it. There were a few parts I really had to push through in order to finish the book. I have not read any of the other books in the series though.

There are a lot of personal differences and tastes. I was hesitant to start a second read, but the first couple of pages pulled me right back in.

 

[theluggage]

Dune book brilliant; 1984 movie crap. End of.

2000 Sci-Fi channel mini series: brilliant crap.

...I mean, although there were several really cringeworthy special effect failures and bad acting moments (...often from the bigger-name actors who should have known better rather that the Czech supporting cast who's only real crime was looking too well-hydrated to be Fremen) and general cheesy-ness but it was far more faithful to the books than the film (including completing the trilogy).

Also, it had some interesting ideas - I quite liked the Macbeth-in-spaaace! vibe of the first series - which almost justified the somewhat stage-bound filming.

Also the alternative portrayal of Paul as having a subtle streak of teenage-junkie-gets-radicalised made a nice change from the always-other-worldly character from the film.

I'm slightly surprised that they're doing the 2020 version as a movie rather than a long-form TV show.

 

[D.T.]

@Huntn Oh sorry, I didn't reply on a previous Dune related question of yours, it was in a different thread, but I'll answer here in the dedicated Dune discussion

re: Dune being "unfilmable"

Mostly due to: 1) there being so much inner monologue (Lynch did this by having the character stare blankly into the ether and do an "in head" monologue), and 2) lots of narrated explanation, setup, etc.,, which Lynch tried by having a voice over / intro + characters doing in-head exposition which equaled ... WTSF (for many people).

Heck, I recall people I talked to who weren't familiar with the source, and had no idea (from the movie) that there was a whole rise of the machine / a war vs. them / a return to a feudal society with only simple support machines.
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Why do you consider Dune as written unfilmable? I found the narrative to be smooth, logical, consistent, and an easy read moving from the start to the ending.

OMG, I was, sort of at random, answering this ... hahahaha nice (see above)
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I'm slightly surprised that they're doing the 2020 version as a movie rather than a long-form TV show.

Apparently they're doing a TV show too, under much of the same creative team. Dune: Sisterhood.

Then in June 2019, it was announced that Legendary would also be putting the “Dune” TV rights to use, too, with spin-off series “Dune: The Sisterhood,” exclusively for WarnerMedia’s impending streaming service, HBO Max. “Dune: The Sisterhood” will focus on the Bene Gesserit — a powerful, ancient order of women with mysterious origins — and also function as a prequel to the 2020 film. The pilot for “Dune: The Sisterhood” is set to also be directed by Villeneuve, who will serve as executive producer alongside Brian Herbert.
Here’s the synopsis for the series, “told through the eyes of a mysterious order of women known as the Bene Gesserit. Given extraordinary abilities by their mastery of the body and the mind, the Bene Gesserit expertly weave through the feudal politics and intrigue of The Imperium, pursuing plans of their own that will ultimately lead them to the enigmatic planet Arrakis, known to its inhabitants as Dune.”

 

[Huntn]

@Huntn Oh sorry, I didn't reply on a previous Dune related question of yours, it was in a different thread, but I'll answer here in the dedicated Dune discussion

re: Dune being "unfilmable"

Mostly due to: 1) there being so much inner monologue (Lynch did this by having the character stare blankly into the ether and do an "in head" monologue), and 2) lots of narrated explanation, setup, etc.,, which Lynch tried by having a voice over / intro + characters doing in-head exposition which equaled ... WTSF (for many people).

Heck, I recall people I talked to who weren't familiar with the source, and had no idea (from the movie) that there was a whole rise of the machine / a war vs. them / a return to a feudal society with only simple support machines.
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OMG, I was, sort of at random, answering this ... hahahaha nice (see above)

This has always been a challenge from book to movie when it features thinking characters, how to get those thoughts out onto the screen, and I agree that Lynch failed miserably at it. Usually if those thoughts, motivations, are to be expressed it requires some kind of clever device, or comment and it seems like the inner monologue of a character translates poorly in a movie when you hear a character thinking.

It brings to mind another book series I loved, The Southern Vampire Mysteries upon which True Blood was based, and HBO utterly destroyed the quality and character of those book primarily built on the lite and sometimes humorous inner monologue of the primary character. There was nothing humorous about it.

I think one of the best movies that featured something like this was Fried Green Tomatoes (1991, a most excellent movie btw) that involved a lot of onscreen narration with one character telling another character a story allowing a character’s thoughts to be expressed in words.

Now back to Dune, I think that the events as portrayed run smoothly from start to finish. Easy for me to say, but the thoughts that serve as narrative explanations will have to glossed over or presented in a clever fashion of which a talented screen writer can handle. I have confidence.

 

[rhett7660]

This has always been a challenge from book to movie when it features thinking characters, how to get those thoughts out onto the screen, and I agree that Lynch failed miserably at it. Usually if those thoughts, motivations, are to be expressed it requires some kind of clever device, or comment and it seems like the inner monologue of a character translates poorly in a movie when you hear a character thinking.

It brings to mind another book series I loved, The Southern Vampire Mysteries upon which True Blood was based, and HBO utterly destroyed the quality and character of those book primarily built on the lite and sometimes humorous inner monologue of the primary character. There was nothing humorous about it.

I think one of the best movies that featured something like this was Fried Green Tomatoes (1991, a most excellent movie btw) that involved a lot of onscreen narration with one character telling another character a story allowing a character’s thoughts to be expressed in words.

Now back to Dune, I think that the events as portrayed run smoothly from start to finish. Easy for me to say, but the thoughts that serve as narrative explanations will have to glossed over or presented in a clever fashion of which a talented screen writer can handle. I have confidence.

I would lay the blame on Alan Ball for utterly destroying the True Blood series. We were at Comic Con SD when the first season premiered and they were doing a panel. Alan and Charlene were both up on the stage. You could cut the tension with a knife between those two. There were comments made by both that lead to believe season two would be diverting from the books and Alan pretty much said we would be using the characters by name only moving forward. Cutting Charlene from the process completely. Which is what we got, an utter crappy show which was devoid of the original feel and overall tone of the books. He stopped coming to the panels when the fans were reacting so negative to the story he was telling.

 

[D.T.]

This has always been a challenge from book to movie when it features thinking characters, how to get those thoughts out onto the screen, and I agree that Lynch failed miserably at it. Usually if those thoughts, motivations, are to be expressed it requires some kind of clever device, or comment and it seems like the inner monologue of a character translates poorly in a movie when you hear a character thinking.

Totally, that's why I also said I think this movie is more dependent on screenplay than some, I mean, it's important to any movie, but this source material needs pretty extensive rewrites vs. just having characters say/think what they did in the novel.

 

[Huntn]

I would lay the blame on Alan Ball for utterly destroying the True Blood series. We were at Comic Con SD when the first season premiered and they were doing a panel. Alan and Charlene were both up on the stage. You could cut the tension with a knife between those two. There were comments made by both that lead to believe season two would be diverting from the books and Alan pretty much said we would be using the characters by name only moving forward. Cutting Charlene from the process completely. Which is what we got, an utter crappy show which was devoid of the original feel and overall tone of the books. He stopped coming to the panels when the fans were reacting so negative to the story he was telling.

And not to offend anyone, but additionally he had his in your face, gay thing story telling going. 😔

 

[mikzn]

Hmm, did you read the book? This story seems to me like it could be told in 1 three hour movie, but I would not object to 2 movies. I’m trying to figure out where they’d chop it. If that guess is accurate

yes - must have read the orginal "Dune" at least 10 times - probably more lol

I think they could easily make 2 movies from the first book - that said - there are so many other great stories in the whole Dune series - that if they use them - it could go on indefinitely

Spoiler

If they do split the Original Dune Story into 2 movies - my guess - and pick would be to end the movie at the betrayal by Dr Yueh and death of Leto and leave the suspense of what "Paul's and Lady Jessica's fate are" for the next movie ?

On another note - Something that lends credibility (at least in my mind - lol) to a more succesful attempt at this is the "Children of Dune" mini series - which I enjoyed immensely and have on my agenda to watch again soon!

 

[Grey Area]

I think they could easily make 2 movies from the first book - that said - there are so many other great stories in the whole Dune series - that if they use them - it could go on indefinitely

Spoiler

If they do split the Original Dune Story into 2 movies - my guess - and pick would be to end the movie at the betrayal by Dr Yueh and death of Leto and leave the suspense of what "Paul's and Lady Jessica's fate are" for the next movie ?

Agreed, that is the split that would feel the most natural - especially given that the original publication in Analog magazine also split it there, with a cliffhanger ending and one year between Dune World and The Prophet of Dune.

If they fiddled a bit with the story in the film, they might even have solved the one aspect that to me is bordering on unfilmable: the passing of time and Paul's transition from boy to man. That must be one of the hardest aging intervals to have on screen. Baby to boy - easy, just switch actors, they don't have to look alike. Man to older man - easy, use the same actor and add grey hair. But a Dune film close to the novel would need to show a child growing into a young man who can believably lead grizzled warriors into battle. With two movies and some real-world time in between, a change of actors would be easier to accept.

But it seems they are taking the same approach as the 1984 movie, Timothée Chalamet is the same age as Kyle MacLachlan was. At least Chalamet looks younger to me, so maybe it will work better.

 

[Huntn]

yes - must have read the orginal "Dune" at least 10 times - probably more lol

I think they could easily make 2 movies from the first book - that said - there are so many other great stories in the whole Dune series - that if they use them - it could go on indefinitely

Spoiler

If they do split the Original Dune Story into 2 movies - my guess - and pick would be to end the movie at the betrayal by Dr Yueh and death of Leto and leave the suspense of what "Paul's and Lady Jessica's fate are" for the next movie ?

On another note - Something that lends credibility (at least in my mind - lol) to a more succesful attempt at this is the "Children of Dune" mini series - which I enjoyed immensely and have on my agenda to watch again soon!

View attachment 899041

Interesting that you mention this, I completed the Dune Messiah Book and have to decide if I want to continue with Children of Dune book, or take a break from the series.

​

My critique of Dune Messiah is that the original Dune is a great, expansive novel, with big things happening, but Dune Messiah is a much more closed-in story, very cerebral, possibly too cerebral, which amounts to mostly plots, palace intrigue that for myself became more of a slog even though there are some hugely significant events that take place in this story, but those are sparse compared to the pages of contemplation, prescience, considering the many possible futures, without going into any real detail, but devoting a lot of time to the concept with very little payback at the end, other than the ending that happens and I won’t say more than that to avoid more specific spoilers.

For Children of Dune, my tendency would be to want to read the book before watching the mini-series.

List of Dune Novels

 

[drlunanerd]

This made me laugh tonight - I’m having Melange Spice on my Tacos!

 

[mikzn]

Interesting that you mention this, I completed the Dune Messiah Book and have to decide if I want to continue with Children of Dune book, or take a break from the series.

View attachment 899510
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My critique of Dune Messiah is that the original Dune is a great, expansive novel, with big things happening, but Dune Messiah is a much more closed-in story, very cerebral, possibly too cerebral, which amounts to mostly plots, palace intrigue that for myself became more of a slog even though there are some hugely significant events that take place in this story, but those are sparse compared to the pages of contemplation, prescience, considering the many possible futures, without going into any real detail, but devoting a lot of time to the concept with very little payback at the end, other than the ending that happens and I won’t say more than that to avoid more specific spoilers.

For Children of Dune, my tendency would be to want to read the book before watching the mini-series.

List of Dune Novels

Although I enjoyed Dune Messiah it was not one of my favorites of the series (including the prequels which I liked a lot - Kevin J Anderson is a great author IMHO and did the series justice - not everyone agrees - LOL)

I enjoyed Children of Dune but it has it's parts that drag on ( just my opinion) - I felt the parts about Alia dragged on in both Dune Messiah and in Children of Dune. Love the development of Leto in Children of Dune and it sets the stage for the next 3 books

 

[drlunanerd]

Although I enjoyed Dune Messiah it was not one of my favorites of the series (including the prequels which I liked a lot - Kevin J Anderson is a great author IMHO and did the series justice - not everyone agrees - LOL)

I enjoyed Children of Dune but it has it's parts that drag on ( just my opinion) - I felt the parts about Alia dragged on in both Dune Messiah and in Children of Dune. Love the development of Leto in Children of Dune and it sets the stage for the next 3 books

Many years ago Kevin J Anderson wrote some Star Wars novels which I really enjoyed, so I’ll be sure to check his Dune stuff out, thanks.

 

[mikzn]

This made me laugh tonight - I’m having Melange Spice on my Tacos! 😄

View attachment 899597

I prefer the Atriedes Brand - much better "prescient vision" and can I fold space much better and more accurately 😂

 

[obeygiant]

First Look at Dune in Vanity Fair. More Tomorrow..

The first step of a hero’s journey sometimes begins with a push.

At the start of Frank Herbert’s science fiction epic Dune, the young royal Paul Atreides prepares to leave the comfortable life he knows for a desolate, dangerous mining planet known as Arrakis, where his wealthy family will oversee extraction of a spice vital to the galaxy.

If he only knew the chaos and death that awaited him, he might be even more sorry to leave.

This is the first look at Timothée Chalamet as Paul Atreides on his native planet of Caladan from this December’s film version of the novel, directed by Arrival and Blade Runner 2049 filmmaker Denis Villeneuve. The 1965 book was so seismic in its influence that its echoes still turn up in sci-fi and fantasy storytelling half a century later. Still, it has stubbornly defied appropriate adaptation itself.


Tomorrow, Vanity Fair will provide an even more expansive exploration of Villeneuve’s quest to bring Dune to the screen, but today we begin with the central hero: Paul Atreides, a child of privilege raised by a powerful family, but not one strong enough to protect him from the dangers that await.


As the Atreides family leaves the oceanic world of Caladan to take over scorching Arrakis, they are also becoming prey to the brutal rival House Harkonnen, which seeks to exploit the desert world they are about to inherit. House Atreides is just one more part of the landscape to annihilate.


“The immediately appealing thing about Paul was the fact that in a story of such detail and scale and world-building, the protagonist is on an anti-hero’s-journey of sorts,” Chalamet said.

In other words, he’s not dreaming of adventure. He’s resisting it. Afraid of it.

“He thinks he’s going to be sort of a young general studying his father and his leadership of a fighting force before he comes of age, hopefully a decade later, or something like that.” Chalamet said. But fate has a different timetable for him. And he may possess powers even his trainers could not anticipate.

In the shot above, the transport ships descend to take the Atreides leadership to their new destination. At this point, Paul is being taught the ways of war by a veteran soldier named Gurney Halleck, played by Josh Brolin. Paul’s parents, Duke Leto and Lady Jessica Atreides (Oscar Isaac and Rebecca Ferguson), must not only manage the spice mining on Arrakis—but also the politics at play in the broader galaxy.

 

[Huntn]

Paul sees a jihad in his name and resists as best he can. I have high hopes for Dune 2020 and am waiting with bated breath.