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dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
Since Apple Silicon Mac can not use x86 windows, it will be a huge problem for those people using virtualization such as Parallels. Due to the different architecture, this will be the worst point of AS Mac but I have no idea what Apple is thinking. Even pro users are concerned. Yes, you can still emulate and use virtualiziation but within the same architecture and the performance will be poor for ARM to x86. Who is also concerned about this?
It depends on your rationale for requiring virtualization. Are there specific apps on the virtualized OS you require? You can run Linux distributions the easiest using ARM Macs as those are recompilations. ARM Windows is restricted to certain hardware and not OEM ready. It's questionable if there's a big enough market for them. Really, if you're buying ARM Macs then you need to be certain that your primary OS supports the majority of your use cases unless they involve Linux.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
But how do we know that we can emulate x86 from ARM? What about AVX which Roshetta 2 cant even translate? What about software dependent with speicifc hardware such as Intel?
You go for a majority of popular apps, not worry about all apps. It's a product of diminishing returns such that if M$ Office for Intel Macs runs on ARM Macs and probably Photoshop then you pretty much have the major apps covered. The rest are gravy.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
Here’s a product idea: Windows in a stick. A USB-C (USB4) stick with AMD Renoir 15W processor, LPDDR4 RAM and SSD. A middleware (Parallels?) to communicate between macOS and Windows. Display output to internal display. I’d buy one, because I don’t want to carry two computers with me.
The lowest common denominator is to get a Windows laptop then you don't need to be concerned with the Mac aspect anymore. Then you only need a single laptop to carry around.
 

dogslobber

macrumors 601
Oct 19, 2014
4,670
7,809
Apple Campus, Cupertino CA
x86 virtualization (and Boot Camp with it) was always just a perk of Apple using x86. It was never the intended reason for Apple using x86.
Boot Camp was an enabler for the Mac to sell millions of more units as it's not a dead end platform if it didn't work out. The ability to run Windows natively on Intel Macs can't be underestimated. It's one of the reason I won't be buying an ARM Mac as it's gonna be an iPad with a keyboard before long.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,147
14,573
New Hampshire
Boot Camp was an enabler for the Mac to sell millions of more units as it's not a dead end platform if it didn't work out. The ability to run Windows natively on Intel Macs can't be underestimated. It's one of the reason I won't be buying an ARM Mac as it's gonna be an iPad with a keyboard before long.

I am, unfortunately, hooked on iCloud Apps but I can run everything else on Windows. There's one crucial program which uses a lot of CPU resources which runs only on x86 (Windows natively or Wine). I have another one that runs on Java and I expect it to be supported. If AS is completely unacceptable to me, then I will just keep using my old MacBook Pros until they die but consider a small AS machine to run iCloud Apps via VNC.
 

ADGrant

macrumors 68000
Mar 26, 2018
1,689
1,059
vmare and other virtual emutation software won’t accept intel version of Linux or windows on apple silicon chips. The software must be arm based.

For Linux this may not be an issue for long. Linux on ARM is gaining some traction in the Cloud with AWS and it's also on Chrome Books and other low end edge devices. MacOS on ARM may even nudge things along.
 
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SuperMatt

Suspended
Mar 28, 2002
1,569
8,281
Virtual PC was very different from what Rosetta is doing. Virtual PC emulated an entire PC, not just the processor.

There are definitely differences, but my point was that it can be done. If there's demand, I believe some software developer will write it. VMware has the most experience in that arena which was why I thought they were the most likely company to do so.
 

chrfr

macrumors G5
Jul 11, 2009
13,709
7,279
There are definitely differences, but my point was that it can be done. If there's demand, I believe some software developer will write it. VMware has the most experience in that arena which was why I thought they were the most likely company to do so.
VMware has experience in virtualization. They haven't demonstrated any experience in emulation and given that there's little demand for enterprise level emulation of this style, it seems unlikely that VMware would be interested. Fusion shares a lot of technology with the ESXi and Workstation platforms, and an emulator wouldn't, thus making the development overhead for a Mac emulation product much more significant than it is for Fusion today.
 
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MisterAndrew

macrumors 68030
Sep 15, 2015
2,895
2,390
Portland, Ore.
I wouldn't worry about it. Emulation will probably be fine, but you could just keep your old Mac and install Windows or Linux on it, or buy a cheap PC, because PCs are cheap...
 

me55

macrumors regular
Jul 26, 2019
131
63
Back in the day, Connectix Virtual PC emulated a x86-CPU on the old PowerPC Macs (also two completely different architectures). With nowadays processors being much more powerful, I don't know why a solution similar to that would not work unless I'm missing something.
 

pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,147
14,573
New Hampshire
Back in the day, Connectix Virtual PC emulated a x86-CPU on the old PowerPC Macs (also two completely different architectures). With nowadays processors being much more powerful, I don't know why a solution similar to that would not work unless I'm missing something.

You presumably want a high-performance solution and wouldn't want to give up your x86 performance for virtualization. Or you might want to get access to the GPU which would also work (or not) in the emulated environment.
 

theluggage

macrumors G3
Jul 29, 2011
8,012
8,444
For Linux this may not be an issue for long. Linux on ARM is gaining some traction in the Cloud with AWS and it's also on Chrome Books and other low end edge devices. MacOS on ARM may even nudge things along.

I don't think Linux is going to be a problem unless you're a developer who needs to build and test x86 binaries. The whole ecosystem is founded on source-level compatibility and hardware independence, most of the major open-source packages are already up and running on ARM64 and the major distros have pretty complete ARM versions of their distributions. The only uncertainty is whether anybody will be able to produce a (stable, usable) "bare metal" distribution with compatible installers, bootloaders, drivers etc. for the Apple Silicon platform where almost everything is done by proprietary hardware in the ASi SoC. However, Apple have shown Linux running under virtualisation - which is more convenient than dual booting for many applications - so that much is a done deal.

VMware has experience in virtualization. They haven't demonstrated any experience in emulation and given that there's little demand for enterprise level emulation of this style, it seems unlikely that VMware would be interested.

There's a lot in common between a desktop hypervisor like VMWare Fusion or Parallels and a "software emulation" beyond the actual engine that actually makes the guest binary code run. VMWare or Parallels would have a huge head start on anybody else - and they're both big enough and ugly enough to buy in experts or license technology to bolt an x86 emulator/translator on to their virtualisation products.

If you look at the open source solution, QEMU, it already "does it all" - virtualization, full-system emulation and "user-mode emulation" (which looks vaguely like a 'Rosetta for Linux'). Since there is already a QEMU port for iOS (albeit non-App-store-friendly and with a laundry-list of restrictions) and people have also had it running on Raspberry Pi, that will quite likely turn up for ASi Macs in due course, if nothing else does.

NB: There's already a "Hypervisor kit" framework built into x86 MacOS that does the basics of virtualization - Docker for Mac uses it, as does (I think) the App-store-friendly version of Parallels (There's certainly an option to use it in full Parallels) and it would be the smallest surprise of the year if Parallels for ASi at WWDC was using it. Conceivably, Apple could also add an "emulation kit" using Rosetta technology if they felt that x86 emulation was a must-have.

Back in the day, Connectix Virtual PC emulated a x86-CPU on the old PowerPC Macs (also two completely different architectures). With nowadays processors being much more powerful, I don't know why a solution similar to that would not work unless I'm missing something.

Yes, that would absolutely work and may well appear (if nothing else, someone will likely get the open-source, cross-platform QUEMU running on ASi in the fullness of time).

Trouble is, the performance of such emulations has always sucked and - although processors have got faster (and emulation/translation software has improved) - software has got more demanding. It deals with one class of problem - e.g. running that one bit of non-demanding admin-ish software that you sometimes need for work or letting you program that lump of industrial machinery - but probably won't be up to running graphics/video/audio/number-crunching software the way bootcamp or hardware virtualisation could.

The ability to run Windows natively on Intel Macs can't be underestimated.

There's no question that some people will have to switch to PC (or at least get a second machine) because of the ASi switch - but I suspect that it is far less of a big deal to many than it was in 2006. Computing has changed, and for a lot of people those 1-2 bits of Windows software they couldn't live without are now websites or mobile Apps ("most" of which will now run native on MacOS - although I'm waiting to see what "most" turns out to mean).

A big part of Apple's laptop customer base will be delighted if their new ultra-thin MacBook can play 4k video in a browser tab for 50% longer on a single charge. Some will be happy if their 16" MBP can run FCPX without thermal issues. Others want an iMac they can use for music production without the fans blasting - or a Mac Mini that isn't knobbled by the only lowest-common-denominator iGPU that Intel offers on desktop chips.

Presumably, Apple have done their market research and decided that those people outnumber (or outspend) those who need high performance x86 Windows.

It's highly likely that there will eventually be some way of running x86 Windows under emulation and/or virtualizing ARM Windows. Also, now that more people have broadband and faster WiFi, there's the possibility of using Remote Desktop to access a PC in the cloud, at work or tucked away under the desk. (Even with Linux you can spin up an x86 server in the cloud for $5/month). The users who need performance will always be a niche squeezed between what you can do with virtualisation/emulation and the far better bangs-per-buck you can get if you just buy a PC.

Personally, running Windows and Linux has been hugely useful to me in the past but, with the growth of mobile and web technology, creating a Windows binary that users have to install is a last resort if a web app will do the job, and
the demise of Internet Explorer (and the failure of "legacy" Edge) in favour of Chromium greatly reduces the need for firing up Windows for testing (...last time, that meant I wasted ages chasing what turned out to be a Parallels bug, and I'm eventually going to need a Surface Pro or something anyway to test things on touchscreen).

OTOH, the current Intel Mac lineup really doesn't float my boat and I'm liable to switch to PC anyway if Apple doesn't offer something new - which is what Apple Silicon promises.
 
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blindpcguy

macrumors 6502
Mar 4, 2016
422
93
Bald Knob Arkansas
For thoose talking about shadow in the thread i thought id weigh in. Iv been using shadow for around a year now. Theres full usb passthrough so you can access local devices as well as somehow the shadow shows up on the local network . Iv used it with a steam link before and everything just worked like i was running local. for the price $11 a month its a perfect solution. I get native windows is a loss same with virtualizing but $11 a month only downside is no offline use but so far everything i need windows to do shadow can do it perfctly. if anyone wants me to check anything out or has any questions feel free to ask. and iv also used shadow with asw low as a 10mbps limiter applied for internet data cap reasons and it stil runs great Hopefully though a good local option for non demanding tasks rears its head though.
 
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Nov 6, 2020
56
152
While Microsoft does have Windows for ARM, it's not available outside their own devices. We'll have to wait and see if they change that and make it available independently.
 

LonestarOne

macrumors 65816
Sep 13, 2019
1,074
1,426
McKinney, TX
as far as I understand it, emulating a complex instruction set cpu on a RISC cpu like arm is possible but incredibly inefficient. It may be technically possible but an impracticality inefficient product.

It’s already being done.

 

Serban55

Suspended
Oct 18, 2020
2,153
4,344
Microsoft will license arm windows10 for sure, probably on Tuesday will be announced
So i would not worry about this...but i would worry for the win10 arm apps under emulation
 
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theorist9

macrumors 68040
May 28, 2015
3,880
3,060
I thought the reason Parallels will run Linux but not Windows on AS is that, to use Parallels for either, you need to be able to install the OS on the AS Mac. And while versions of Linux are available for ARM, MS refuses (thus far) to sell Win 10 for ARM to consumers--it's OEM only. Anyone know why MS has made this decision?

 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,147
14,573
New Hampshire
I think ARM based Macs will really push Microsoft to normalise ARM based Windows. This will mean being able to buy an ARM based Windows licence and potentially install it into a VM.

I think that Microsoft will focus on tools so that their development environments will make it easy to run your software on macOS/AS.
 

The_Interloper

macrumors 6502a
Oct 28, 2016
688
1,414
I think ARM based Macs will really push Microsoft to normalise ARM based Windows. This will mean being able to buy an ARM based Windows licence and potentially install it into a VM.
I‘m not so sure. Microsoft is a cloud-focused (Azure) Enterprise company. Why care about a tiny subset of users wanting to virtualize Windows on a Mac?

Windows only exists on ARM (and it’s actually Windows on Snapdragon) as a way of forcing Intel to up its game. Even if an ARM variant for AS was made available, how does that solve the issue of all the x86 programs Mac users would want to run? They run horribly on Windows on ARM.

Microsoft‘s contribution to Apple Silicon will be ensuring the Mac versions of Office apps all run natively. I wouldn’t get any hopes up beyond that.
 
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pshufd

macrumors G4
Oct 24, 2013
10,147
14,573
New Hampshire
Very Unlikely. Microsoft doesn't have a lot of incentive to license and support Windows on ARM like it does with the Intel platform. Apple and Microsoft to a lesser degree would all prefer to move back to the closed ecosystem model as it is far more profitable for them.

I really don't think that Microsoft would want to be dependent on Apple for chips over the long run.
 
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