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vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,363
9,714
Columbus, OH
True. But to butcher your analogy, the compromise between closed and open ecosystem is more akin to getting a car with doors and a roof vs four wheels bolted to a sheet of plywood.

You start with the decision of ecosystem and make compromises from there - do I get the top end flagship or settle for something more in my price range.
You butchered it alright. Get real, almost nobody buys their phone based on a closed or open ecosystem. Most consumers probably couldn’t even tell you what a “closed ecosystem” or “open ecosystem” even means, let alone make a purchasing decision based on it.
 

steve09090

macrumors 68020
Aug 12, 2008
2,171
4,154
False. It gives users the ability to install apps that were never going to be available on Apple's App Store.
Which means, by definition, people are forced to use those stores if they want the app. It is EXACTLY as they said.

Except it's not giving users any choice. It's forcing users to use third party app stores that are less secure. To install apps they want.
 

vipergts2207

macrumors 601
Apr 7, 2009
4,363
9,714
Columbus, OH
Apple recently has unbanned Emulators. And this emulator is on the Apple App Store, outside of the EU. Luckily there are other emulators on the App Store WITHIN the EU. But that doesn't solve the issue.

My issue is purely with developers forcing users to use their own / other App Stores to download Apps within the EU. That this first app is one of questionable legality doesn't matter at all.

This issue is only possible because of the DMA. And I've stated many times before, that is where the DMA becomes a problem. Because the DMA does NOTHING to protect the user's privacy or security. The DMA is ONLY for third party developers to take advantage of work the gatekeepers have created.

How I would fix this:

1. Require any third party store to audited by the EU based on the GDPR regulation before release.
2. Require any third party store on a DMA platform to also follow the DMA / DSA rules.
3. Require any (third party) store to release the source code of the store itself.
4. Require DMA gatekeepers to allow installation from unknown sources. (currently it's installation from multiple known sources), truly allowing sideloading.
5. Require the gatekeeper (or third party store) to do a platform, store or app GDPR assessment before release.
6. Require an option to the user to block installation from third party or unknown sources.

Only then the user will have truly a choice and security and privacy will actually be protected.

side note: 6 should be very simple; during a device wide restore it should give the user the option to allow installation one of from either:
1. only manufacturer sources (closed ecosystem)
2. manufacturer sources and known good sources. (this will enforce the rules stated in 5 of my list above)
3. all sources the user want to use. (but with a warning that this might impact usage)
Precisely, other emulators on the App Store means you download one of Delta’s competitors from there. Unlike smartphone platforms, of which there are just two, there are typically myriad apps that do the same thing. Many of which will be on the App Store to get the highest exposure to consumers.

And I’m aware Apple now allows emulators as of a month ago. After they spent years banning them, of course. This is why Apple shouldn’t be the only source of apps. They shouldn’t get to dictate whether I can download an emulator or any other app on my phone. If they don’t want an app on their store fine, but iPhone users should be able to get it from somewhere else though. Thankfully the EU has rectified this issue.

Regarding Delta specifically, you can actually go ahead and point your finger at Apple for it not being on there, bud.

“we already agreed to the new terms in order to launch AltStore, and Apple doesn't allow going back once you distribute an app on another store (which we already had by the time they changed the App Store rules)

https://www.reddit.com/r/ios/comments/1c89lip
 
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madeirabhoy

macrumors 68000
Oct 26, 2012
1,629
585
Yeah, the Epic Games Store known for installing Chinese spyware and using Fortnite money to buy game exclusives on Windows... Tim Sweeney isn't the saint he thinks he is.

I will never install the Epic Games Store on any device.


See I’m the opposite. I have epic games store on my Mac. I never play anything but every time they give away a free game I click on it no matter if it’s windows only. It’s my childish useless act of pettiness knowing their billions might be down a few cents due to me clicking on a game they have to pay the developer for. Of course I don’t even know if that is the case or if it’s set amounts or payments after playing x time. But it makes me smile.
 
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GrayFlannel

macrumors 6502
Feb 2, 2024
318
618
You said it, not me. I quoted someone who said they were hiding the money, which was clearly b.s.
Of course I did. I’ve always said Apple and Epic both use the laws to their advantage. See below.

So do you also despise Cook and Apple for hiding money in Ireland and depriving the EU of taxes for 10 years to the tune of about 13b pounds? Or when Apple uses rules to their advantage is a-ok but when Epic uses them it’s just despicable?

They both are using laws to their benefit but only Epic is despicable.
 
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PlayUltimate

macrumors 6502a
Jul 29, 2016
933
1,713
Boulder, CO
Why am I not surprised to see so many triggered responses when there's an article about Epic or Tim Sweeney. It's like a Pavlovian response. 🤣 Amazing to see so many people against alternative app stores.
The creation of alternative App Stores changes the ecosystem that many have liked and enjoy. One can say, "Well, then don't use alternative App Stores because everything else is the same." I argue, "Not true." With every change like this there are pros/cons. For example, once upon a time NCAA Football Bowl games were all available for free on over the air TV. Not anymore. If you want to watch most sports, you need to have some type of subscription TV service (cable et al) The same thing will happen here. Apps will migrate out of the App Store. Thus, what was a simple process will become more complicated; what was once a one stop shop will require more work.
I'm generally not against change. But these changes are just a way to convert smart phones, a market which Apple arguably created, into just another utility device.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,989
Why are so many US/non-EU citizens against the DMA?
Any competition is better than none.
The competition isn't really between stores. It's between apps and hardware. If the EU had ever bothered to do their homework and actually study the history of software development on both closed and open platforms they would have understood that part of it. Look at consoles as an easy example: people don't talk about the stores as being important to a new console generation at all. They talk about which company has the best hardware and the best lineup of games.

The EUs emphasis on stores as being the critical part of competition is largely nonsense.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,989
Precisely, other emulators on the App Store means you download one of Delta’s competitors from there. Unlike smartphone platforms, of which there are just two, there are typically myriad apps that do the same thing. Many of which will be on the App Store to get the highest exposure to consumers.
Emulators are free and (wink wink, nudge nudge) should only be used for running games you already own. So there's no real economic or competitive benefit to emulators being available in mobile stores.
 

GUNSTAR1

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2024
30
27
Seattle, WA
something-something "we may have lost the fight but won the war" Either way i'm happy that the consumer can do more of what they want with their device even if its only to use alternative app stores for now.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,989
The fact the EU made iPadOS an afterthought shows how badly managed and considered this whole act has been.
And they're not even following their own rules for "gatekeepers". The iPadOS App Store in the EU has 50% of the active monthly users that are required for the DMA to apply.
 
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NagasakiGG

macrumors regular
Sep 20, 2017
221
255
I don't think any of the as you call them "rants" are about wanting the same laws passed. I think it is pointing out that the people blindly saying the EU is right are misunderstanding the EU's reasoning. It is easy to say that everything is for the consumer, but how much money does the EU make off the fines? How much money is "greasing the wheels of politics" from Apple's or whomever competitors? I have read, if it is true or not I am not sure, that the EU politicians are at least as influenced by corp money as their American counterparts.
If they are influenced or not, it's none of my business.In fact, as a consumer I look what is best for me. And what Apple is doing is not consumer friendly and also in my opinion anti-competitive. Why don't let the users choose how they want to use their device? Idk why it's so difficult for apple to understand.

Let's be honest, Apple tried to cheat in all ways to avoid DMA. That's just the correct consequences.
 

SanderEvers

macrumors 6502
Jan 27, 2010
384
1,009
Netherlands
False. It gives users the ability to install apps that were never going to be available on Apple's App Store.

Over the years MacRumors has covered a ton of people who went through the effort of making apps for iOS, only for Apple to invent brand new rules that benefit absolutely nobody and either delay a launch by months or just outright cancel it. No company wants to sink months of developer time into an app that Apple may arbitrarily block. Now, we might start seeing more software come to iOS.


But maybe not. The EU is a small market - I don't think the "AltStore" will get much traction. The Epic Store might. Or it might not. I think someone like Amazon who already has broad consumer trust (whether deserved or not) could maybe launch a successful third party app store.

We already have apps that are NOT in the EU App Store, but ARE in other App Stores. So this App IS AVAILABLE on the Apple App Store but NOT in the EU.
 

gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,989
If they are influenced or not, it's none of my business.In fact, as a consumer I look what is best for me. And what Apple is doing is not consumer friendly and also in my opinion anti-competitive. Why don't let the users choose how they want to use their device? Idk why it's so difficult for apple to understand.
If Apple was really anti-competitive they would have mediocre hardware and a half-assed selection of apps while still raking in the $$. That's the purpose of being anti-competitive: you don't have to bother with improving your products and services. But of course everyone knows that isn't the case with Apple. Example: their focus on developing their own SoCs for iPhone significantly improved the product relative to what off-the-shelf performance would have been and they extended that approach to their desktop/laptop lineup later on. Apple currently has some of the best performance per watt chips for consumer products on Earth.
 

Shadowcatz

macrumors member
Aug 28, 2018
35
43
If they are influenced or not, it's none of my business.In fact, as a consumer I look what is best for me. And what Apple is doing is not consumer friendly and also in my opinion anti-competitive. Why don't let the users choose how they want to use their device? Idk why it's so difficult for apple to understand.

Let's be honest, Apple tried to cheat in all ways to avoid DMA. That's just the correct consequences.
You should worry about if your politicians are influenced because while you think that things are working out in your best interest now, it doesn't always mean it will be. And you will be one of the first ones complaining about it.
If you believe Apple is being anti-competitive then you should have used your choice up front and purchased something else. That is the real way to influence any decisions. This all seems like you are mad that you made a poor choice for yourself and now you want the EU to bail you out of it.
 

ApplesAreSweet&Sour

macrumors 68000
Sep 18, 2018
1,940
3,543
One must ask why you would own an iPhone knowing going in there were restrictions on what you could do. It flat out makes zero sense to buy a product and bitch about it. I do not buy things that have functionality I want or have to have, but instead buy products that have them.

Other than Epic, Spotify and some zealots the vast majority of people could care less about this access you want. As for your comparison to the Mac it was created a different time by Apple. When Apple created the iPhone they set the rules because it is theirs to do so.
You are right, out of context of the goals of our societies, nobody should touch the product a company wishes to sell.

But being that nearly every part of buying and selling, and really doing anything at all will at some point pass through the virtual "toll booth" of companies like Apple, Google, Samsung, Meta, etc., our governments are forced to enact regulations or face a reality where for-profit tech giants increasingly eat up all competition and innovation to see their bottom-lines grow perpetually.

Like, do you realize how many EU citizens own and use an iPhone every day, and how much time they spend on it, how much of their daily lives happens digitally?

Can you entertain the notion that this level of reliance on a product like iPhone is worrying for governments? Even more so considering the growth of the corporations making products like iPhone?
 

disneydadtx

macrumors newbie
Apr 30, 2024
1
1


With Apple soon to be required to bring the same EU changes that it made on the iPhone to the iPad, Epic Games today confirmed that it will release Fortnite for the iPad in the future.

fortnite_apple_featured.jpg

Epic Games is already working to release an iPhone version of Fortnite in the EU, with the game set to be available from the forthcoming Epic Games Store, an alternative app marketplace. The iPhone version of Fortnite is coming "soon," and an iPad version will follow "this year."

The European Commission said this morning that iPadOS, the operating system designed to run on the iPad, is considered a digital gatekeeper under the EU's Digital Markets Act (DMA). As a result, Apple has six months to comply with the requirements set by the DMA, and we've already seen those requirements implemented on iPhone.


As of iOS 17.4, iPhone users in the European Union can download apps from alternative app marketplaces rather than the App Store, and starting in iOS 17.5, apps are available directly from developer websites. Right now, only iPhone apps can be downloaded outside of the App Store, but Apple will need to expand this functionality to the iPad as well.

Within six months, EU users will be able to download iPad apps from alternative app marketplaces and from websites. As with the iPhone updates, the upcoming changes are limited to the European Union, and the iPad app ecosystem will function as is in the rest of the world.

Article Link: Epic Games to Bring Fortnite to iPad in EU After iPadOS 'Gatekeeper' Decision
Epic has desperately tried for years to cleverly obfuscate that this struggle is purely about money and their attempts to get as much of it as humanly possible. Making the struggle about "rights" or "freedom" is just insulting. Apple on day #1 outlined their policies, EPIC knew it, EPIC got rich off it, and EPIC violated it willingly and deliberately. Now EPIC is making Apple out to be some evil empire attempting to squash EPIC's ongoing struggle for freedom and oppression on behalf of the common man. EPIC needs to stop this ridiculous charade and turn all of their efforts on all the sweats in their lobbies...I love getting sniped right off spawn by a level 550 with a legendary reaper when I don't even have a weapon yet. Talk about oppression...
 
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gnipgnop

macrumors 68020
Feb 18, 2009
2,210
2,989
But being that nearly every part of buying and selling, and really doing anything at all will at some point pass through the virtual "toll booth" of companies like Apple, Google, Samsung, Meta, etc., our governments are forced to enact regulations or face a reality where for-profit tech giants increasingly eat up all competition and innovation to see their bottom-lines grow perpetually.
iOS/Android currently dominate mobile because they were better operating system solutions for smartphones than what previously existed. In other words, they were MORE innovative than what EU companies like Nokia and Ericsson were offering at the time. And nobody can deny that the evolution of mobile hardware for iPhone and Android is easily at the level or better than what was concurrently happening for desktop/laptop hardware. The 2007 iPhone looks positively prehistoric compared to the 2023 iPhone in terms of performance and functionality.

I'm not saying that governments shouldn't be regulating the industry but the approach the EU is taking is basically a lie. Apple's current products and services wouldn't exist if they were really focused on anticompetitive practices.
 

mielie

macrumors regular
Aug 19, 2020
146
266
I sometimes see this argument, but honestly I think it's quite disingenuous to say people buy these devices "knowing" they are handicapped with restrictions. iOS devices are very much sold as general computing devices which the reasonable consumer expects they can run whatever software they want, which has been the de facto rule for years on basically every other general computing platform, Apple's included.

There is no warning that you will be restricted. Such limitations are an unwelcome, hidden surprise. Yes, you can find this information if you do some deep dive research into the EULA, which you will get once you arrive at home with your device - it's not presented in store, and not found in the marketing and advertising material. In fact Apple regularly tout powerful capabilities and thousands of apps...

Never has their advertising material said anything like "Caveat: no emulators, bitcoin miners, streaming games, P2P, etc allowed!" That is always secretively hidden from buyers.

A free market wild-west american might claim that this is the customers responsibility to research and understand, but reasonable consumers would expect that if you're going to sell something with a handicapped feature, you should be told up front - and prominently. And any country with reasonable consumer protections would require just that.

Or... they catch up to the issue later on and require to open up later down the track. Hrrrm, guess what's happening.

I don't think that has ever really been the case. Consumers have always had to contend with the idea that not every piece of software is going to run on whatever device they buy. When I was a kid you had to choose Nintendo or Sega and the choice you made determined the games you could play. It's still the same now, many software products are only available on specific platforms. Consumers are not stupid, they know this.

I will be genuinely interested to see how Epic price their in game purchases in the EU store. I would expect them to pass across all the savings (assuming there are any) from leaving the App Store to the consumer. That was, after all, one of their major arguments why this was so unfair on the consumer.

I've always considered this a silly move from Epic and an even more stupid move by the EU. Clearly Apple does not have a monopoly, despite quite a few people throwing their teddies out the cot on here and claiming they do. If Apple genuinely did have a monopoly then that is exactly what the EU would call it, but instead they have created a new, legally vague, and confusing term 'gatekeeper'.
 

lazyrighteye

Contributor
Jan 16, 2002
4,105
6,326
Denver, CO
Only really of note here because they successfully managed to convince a significant number of people that they were the good guys fighting for consumer rights against the evil and greedy Apple corporation. It was masterfully done.

Exactly. I struggle tie the word masterful to such a hack of a CEO. I guess one could masterfully take advantage of their 12-yo customer base. But I think there is a better word to describe that kind of person. 😜
 

subjonas

macrumors 603
Feb 10, 2014
5,601
5,953
Why would it be a loss for those who don't plan on installing from 3rd party stores though? What difference would it make for them (other than perhaps hurt pride while stanning for their favourite brand ;) ).
If third party app stores are full of only apps that would never have been available in Apple’s app store, then the ruling wouldn’t be a loss to any consumers. But if there are any apps that would have been in Apple’s app store but now are not because they’re allowed to be in third party app stores, then it’s a loss to consumers who wanted all their apps available in one first party location. The latter is much more likely the case. This isn't a win for all consumers, it’s a win for all developers.
 
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Piplodocus

macrumors 6502a
Apr 2, 2008
503
501
Yet again I'm confused how some people seem totally incensed by the idea they could be allowed to get stuff from somewhere other than the app store. My Mac I can install anything from anywhere. My Mac, my choice. If my Mac could only install stuff from the Mac app store I would have bought a PC. Why is this any different?

I own an iPhone because it works nicely with my other Apple devices and the ecosystem they've created, and it's worth me putting up with Apple telling me what I can and can't install on it because there's not that much I need I can't get from the iOS app store. But it's still BS that I can't put what I like on it and Apple say what I can and can't have (and can is pretty much anything as long as the dev pays Apple 30% - there's plenty of articles on dodgy apps they approved in the past).

I bought an iPad Pro that I found was basically a waste of money due to lack of decent music production software for it. If I had more free reign to put what I liked on it and Apple weren't taking 30% of all the developers revenue, maybe I might have had some better SW options by now.

Sure, arguements can be made MS is gatekeeper for XBox and other gatekeepers are for their stuff, but it doesn't make it any more ok Apple tell me what I can and can't install, and if it's a yes a third of of the money goes to Apple. Go get the EU to investigate MS/XBox or whoever if you care, but it doesn't make something bad ok, just because other people are bad too.

(Although I will say the EU trying to get Apple to say mod messages so you can have 3rd party stuff inside their *app* is BS. Apple should be able to make their apps do whatver they want. But they shouldn't be able to stop you installing and using someone elses app instead or as well)
 
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