Espresso Enthusiasts

[S.B.G]

Cool thread,
I have a DeLonghi EC702 15-Bar-Pump Espresso Maker, I know is not a super high end machine, but gets it done well and is mosstly for guests because I don't drink coffee, but tea most of the time. I use the Panarello wand to make my frothed almond milk though. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CNG7RY/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Quick questions for you masters of espresso:
I have a Pannarello wand on my machine (I think that is the name, see amz link)
1) How many would recommend to get a thermometer, I just remove now based on how hot is under the milk SS pitcher.
2) I don't drink reg milk, but when my fam comes visit they use cows milk, so which one is better to get properly frothed, 2%, fat free, or regular? I found the 2% wasn't giving me the best frothing when they came a few months back and was wondering if reg would be better. I use almond milk for my frothing and turns great and has better consistency for latte art, etc than the 2%. Is this an issue due to it being a Pannarello wand? The milk rolls and everything.

Welcome to our thread!

I recommend a thermometer because I like to be a little more precise with the milk temperature and don't want to rely on feeling. I use this one and it works well. The ideal milk temperature is between 140℉ and 160℉. I always cut the steam off as soon as it hits 140℉ and it continues to heat up to 150℉ for a few seconds. Anything over 160℉ and you're burning the milk.

My friend, Kurwenal, already provided a link to the Whole Latte Love video that I had in mind as I read your post. Check it out for a good idea of how the different types of milk froth.

I use 2% lactose free milk, because I want reduced fat calories and my body has a thing against lactose. I do get slightly better micro foam from milk with more fat in it, but just barely, and it could be the wand (same one as you have) on my Gaggia Baby Class too - I don't know.

I also ran across this article and may be worth reading.

Additionally, here is an article on how to froth using the Pannarello wand on the Gaggia website.

 

[Shrink]

Cool thread,
I have a DeLonghi EC702 15-Bar-Pump Espresso Maker, I know is not a super high end machine, but gets it done well and is mosstly for guests because I don't drink coffee, but tea most of the time. I use the Panarello wand to make my frothed almond milk though. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CNG7RY/ref=wms_ohs_product?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Quick questions for you masters of espresso:
I have a Pannarello wand on my machine (I think that is the name, see amz link)
1) How many would recommend to get a thermometer, I just remove now based on how hot is under the milk SS pitcher.
2) I don't drink reg milk, but when my fam comes visit they use cows milk, so which one is better to get properly frothed, 2%, fat free, or regular? I found the 2% wasn't giving me the best frothing when they came a few months back and was wondering if reg would be better. I use almond milk for my frothing and turns great and has better consistency for latte art, etc than the 2%. Is this an issue due to it being a Pannarello wand? The milk rolls and everything.

Welcome!

Never apologize for your machine! As the machine is the least important element (after THE BEAN, the grinder, and good dosing and consistent tamping technique), the machine that you have will give you fine espresso if the other elements are present...especially THE BEAN and the grinder. I used the bottom end De Longhi machines for several years before starting the (now ended, as I have my Dream Machine) increasingly bank account depleting upgrade cycle.

I can't help with the frothing issues as I only drink my espresso straight...but there are many wonderful and knowledgable folks here who will be along and help you out.


EDIT: Oops..I type so slowly...they're here already!

 

[S.B.G]

PS: where's friend mobilehatthi been? Do you suppose he switched over to Diet Coke?

Good question! I was wondering the same the other day. Perhaps he's on a trip somewhere, researching some SO beans in a far away land.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Welcome!


I am not a huge fan of white coffee, but I'll try to answer. I'm all about data and repeatable processes, and a thermometer is cheap (you may have one in your kitchen already, used for grilling meat or baking), so, at first, why not? Or, perhaps you have been frothing for many years and no longer need a thermometer. If you use a metal frothing pitcher, the general rule is to stop frothing when the pitcher gets uncomfortable in your hand. Milk scalds, as I recall, at 180 and starts to taste bad (proteins are breaking down) at 160. Be careful!

I have never tried to froth almond milk, so I can't help you there.

There are furious debates in some coffee forums about which type of milk is best. The real answer, I think, is: froth what you like. I had a wand like yours on a Gaggia machine once. It has little air holes in it that make frothing easier (not automatic, as some claim, just easier).

Whole milk will be more creamy tasting, but also has more calories, obviously.

Skim (non fat) milk is less creamy tasting, but has fewer calories, and is the better choice if you like a lot of foam.

A lot of people think 2% is a nice compromise between calories, amount of foam, and taste.

Here is a video I recalled seeing a while back. It's actually not that helpful, it's just cool to see all of the different types of milk lined up together.



Heh heh. I have been holding off on pictures so as not to promote temptation on the thread. So, here's a reason to dislike the GS/3: it is awfully, awfully heavy.

Thank you for your kinds words. The recovery overall goes well and I find my current ability to drink only one ristretto each morning more of a curiosity than an annoyance. As with so many things, time will tell. The year 2014, more than anything else, has been a lesson in what matters and what does not matter. Despite my love of and fascination for the bean, it sits comfortably on the "does not matter" side of life.

I have a similar ongoing reaction to wine. The wine cellar sits, unused. But, like an old friend, it will wait, patiently, for my return.

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PS: where's friend mobilehatthi been? Do you suppose he switched over to Diet Coke?

Yes, I, too, have been wondering where friend mobilehaathi has headed off to; well, 'stuff' (I love that word) can happen in people's lives. In nay case, I imagine we shall hear from him whenever he chooses to drop in again.

Re torture and temptation, you do know that this is sheer sadism……and as for heavy, you merely add to my salivating desire.

Re milk, I can be found in the camp where the luscious, full fat, stuff (that word again), creamy and heavy with depth of taste, dwells; none of this insipid, tasteless, thin, white coloured pale liquid for me.

Nevertheless, I truly feel for you on the matter of wine; along with an olfactory inability to derive the full savage pleasure from a ristretto, to be denied the contents of your own - no doubt - amply-stocked cellar as part of a lengthy recovery process strikes me as a fate which is almost too cruel for words to attempt to describe……..

 

[Carlanga]

...

Thanks! Yes, I was referring to cows milk since that is what my guests drink, I will buy whole milk next time and see if it is better. 2% here might be just too watery to create proper conditions for latte art.

Almond milk froths incredibly well and very fast for me.

THe video was good, but even better was the frothing techniques video they had for latte art vs cappuccino, which I think might have been the issue, that I was letting it grow too much and was good for cappuccino and not latte art (the 2% cow milk)

Welcome to our thread!

....

Thanks for the advice and links! Might buy a thermometer now. I think I was letting it grow too much, now I will try it just to let it grow 2X like in the video I saw from the same people for latte art and will buy full cows milk.

Welcome!

Never ...

Thanks! Living on an island is hard to find some really good espresso coffee that won't cost you an arm and a leg to just try it (PR coffee is just ok), last time I bought some Bustelo Espresso coffee and was just good flavor wise according to my family that drinks espressos almost every day; they only brought with them regular coffee because I didn't get the machine until after they were here. This is the coffee brand they usually drink/bring for reg pot coffee:

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Thanks to all 3 for the advices, links and youtube videos they help me out a lot

 

[Shrink]

...snip...

You haven't mentioned if you grind your own beans, or use pre-ground coffee (I couldn't tell from the bags pictured.)

On the chance that you are using pre-ground, you can improve the taste of your coffee (irrespective of production method) by many orders of magnitude by grinding your own beans. Even modest quality beans, freshly ground, are much better than pre-ground.

If you are already grinding your own...please ignore the above babbling!

 

[Carlanga]

You haven't mentioned if you grind your own beans...

Oh for sure, I bet! Like I said before I'm not a regular coffee drinker more of a loose tea drinker If I have coffee at my apt I might do a few cups a month for myself, that was an eBay picture of the brand. They bring theirs either freshly ground or pre-ground since I don't own a grounder nor is cost effective for the little use the machine will get, maybe when I get someone living here w/ me permanently that drinks coffee everyday.

Speaking of grinders, what do you think about this Krups one as a gift: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004SPEU...lid=34BPV5RG27RWF&coliid=I2NX8XYHJ18V11&psc=1

 

[Shrink]

Oh for sure, I bet! Like I said before I'm not a regular coffee drinker more of a loose tea drinker If I have coffee at my apt I might do a few cups a month for myself, that was an eBay picture of the brand. They bring theirs either freshly ground or pre-ground since I don't own a grounder nor is cost effective for the little use the machine will get, maybe when I get someone living here w/ me permanently that drinks coffee everyday.

Speaking of grinders, what do you think about this Krups one as a gift: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004SPEU...lid=34BPV5RG27RWF&coliid=I2NX8XYHJ18V11&psc=1

NO!

In case I wasn't clear...never use a blade grinder on coffee. Ever! Not good!

Look for a BURR grinder. If it is to be used for drip or press production, any relatively inexpensive grinder (~$100-125 USD) is fine. If it is to be used for espresso or a pour-over method, then it starts to get more expensive.

Really...blade grinders are fine for chopping parsley, but destroy coffee beans.

 

[S.B.G]

Speaking of grinders, what do you think about this Krups one as a gift: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00004SPEU...lid=34BPV5RG27RWF&coliid=I2NX8XYHJ18V11&psc=1

Ooh, that's a blade grinder! Not a favorite among the crowd of coffee folks here. A low RPM burr grinder is ideal.

I know you don't drink coffee much, but I think this Baratza Encore grinder is a better choice, though a tad more expensive than the other one. I have this one and it's fantastic for making press or drip coffee. I think it would be a good investment for when you have company and the rare times you make coffee for yourself.

 

[Shrink]

Ooh, that's a blade grinder! Not a favorite among the crowd of coffee folks here. A low RPM burr grinder is ideal.

I know you don't drink coffee much, but I think this Baratza Encore grinder is a better choice, though a tad more expensive than the other one. I have this one and it's fantastic for making press or drip coffee. I think it would be a good investment for when you have company and the rare times you make coffee for yourself.

Thanks for the more sane posting than mine...I went a little nuts, there.

 

[S.B.G]

Thanks for the more sane posting than mine...I went a little nuts, there.

It's okay, I understand - he used a bad word. #

 

[Carlanga]

snip...

thanks,
umm interesting, I guess is because you get a more equal size grind than a blade? I do think the cost is too high for my blood, but it does look nice.

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snip

hahaha lol thanks

 

[Shrink]

thanks,
umm interesting, I guess is because you get a more equal size grind than a blade? I do think the cost is too high for my blood, but it does look nice.

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what was the bad word?

You never actually used the word...but suggested a blade grinder.

Not only is there wildly variable particle size, but it creates so much heat because the blades hit the bean thousands of times, it cooks the oils, among other nastiness.

 

[S.B.G]

thanks,
umm interesting, I guess is because you get a more equal size grind than a blade? I do think the cost is too high for my blood, but it does look nice.

It's because a blade grinder chops the beans over and over again, which doesn't produce an equal particle size and with the continued butchering it adds harmful heat to what's left of the beans and that destroy's the taste before it's even left the grinder.

A burr grinder makes equal-sized particles and only hits the bean once and if a it's a low RPM burr grinder, there's less friction adding less heat.

Technically, you didn't say the bad word - blade - but you linked to one!

 

[Shrink]

It's because a blade grinder chops the beans over and over again, which doesn't produce an equal particle size and with the continued butchering it adds harmful heat to what's left of the beans and that destroy's the taste before it's even left the grinder.

A burr grinder makes equal-sized particles and only hits the bean once and if a it's a low RPM burr grinder, there's less friction adding less heat.

Technically, you didn't say the bad word - blade - but you linked to one!

Hey, is there an echo in here!?

 

[S.B.G]

Hey, is there an echo in here!?

So it would seem. The issue of blade vs. burr grinders is a sensitive matter to you!

 

[Carlanga]

snip

snip

As a scientist I appreciate the science behind your points and can see that it would make a difference on paper, wonder if there is a blind test for them to compare for the average coffee drinker? I guess this will make it better like a good aerator makes wine taste better. I saw some manual burr ones in amz, my guess is those are probably similar to the blade ones for the end result than the electric burr ones?

 

[Shrink]

As a scientist I appreciate the science behind your points and can see that it would make a difference on paper, wonder if there is a blind test for them to compare for the average coffee drinker? I guess this will make it better like a good aerator makes wine taste better. I saw some manual burr ones in amz, my guess is those are probably similar to the blade ones for the end result than the electric burr ones?

If they are burr manual grinders, you will get a much better grind. In a burr grinder, the bean is hit once by the burrs...in a blade grind, the same bean is hit over and over. Also, manual grinders are low RPM, creating less heat.

I use a manual grinder, and it turns at about 100-125 RPM...while the slowest electric grinders are about 450 rpm, and most run at 1,000-1,200 RPM.

Would the "average" drinker know the difference in a blade ground drip vs a burr ground drip...fair question. Possibly not...unless a side by side comparison was done, and then the difference might be evident even to the "average" drinker. Lots of folks use supermarket, pre-ground, coffee...pretty bad stuff, and they are fine with it.

Shrink's Law...if you like, then that's all that matters. But giving the "average" drinker some really good coffee, and they might well discover the difference.

 

[Carlanga]

...

Nice, can you tell me what manual grinder you are using? Do you need a lot of elbow power? I saw some manual ones in amz and they are less than half the price of the burr grinder sandbox uses.

 

[S.B.G]

Nice, can you tell me what manual grinder you are using? Do you need a lot of elbow power? I saw some manual ones in amz and they are less than half the price of the burr grinder sandbox uses.

Oh, now you've done it! Just stand by....

 

[Shrink]

Nice, can you tell me what manual grinder you are using? Do you need a lot of elbow power? I saw some manual ones in amz and they are less than half the price of the burr grinder sandbox uses.

Um, as SBG just hinted...my grinder is a bit more...ah...pricey than the Amazon ones.

I have, and love dearly, an HG-one. With 83 MM Mazzer burrs, it doesn't require a lot of effort, and is an amazing piece of equipment.

But they ain't giving it away!

 

[Kurwenal]

any relatively inexpensive grinder (~$100-125 USD) is fine.

OK, now it's my turn to hold my tongue.....

(but I get what you are saying.....the first hit is free, etc.)

 

[Shrink]

OK, now it's my turn to hold my tongue.....

(but I get what you are saying.....the first hit is free, etc.)

Fine for drip or press, not so fine for espresso or pour over. It seems to me the need for particle size uniformity is less crucial for press or drip, so an inexpensive grinder would be fine...especially for a beginner.

N'est-ce pas?

EDIT: Oops, didn't see your last line!

 

[Kurwenal]

Fine for drip or press, not so fine for espresso or pour over. It seems to me the need for particle size uniformity is less crucial for press or drip, so an inexpensive grinder would be fine...especially for a beginner.

N'est-ce pas?

EDIT: Oops, didn't see your last line!

Perhaps the only point you and I disagree on, which is remarkable over several thousand posts, if you think about it.

Group hug.

I think anything below about the Rocky is complete crap for drip or espresso, and, as I have said before, yes I can taste the difference on drip.

And everyone is entitled to my opinion!

 

[Shrink]

Perhaps the only point you and I disagree on, which is remarkable over several thousand posts, is you think about it.

Group hug.

I think anything below about the Rocky is complete crap for drip or espresso, and, as I have said before, yes I can taste the difference on drip.

And everyone is entitled to my opinion!

Since I really respect your judgements, I would accede to your opinion...except to say that (under better circumstances) you might well taste the difference between a Rocky grind and a cheaper grinder drip coffee. I doubt many others would...certainly I would doubt that I could tell the difference. No disagreement regarding espresso and pour over...but with drip, not so sure.

Then again, I do feel some relief that I am entitled to your opinion!