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Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Several on this thread know that I am in London (civilised, urban, ancient and balm for the soul) just now, for a much needed break.

In addition to theatres (on Wednesday I saw the RSC productions of 'Wolf Hall' and 'Bring Up The Bodies' - both simply superb, first class compelling, and utterly brilliant theatre), I have also visited museums, cafés, (inevitable, that, on this thread), a pub or two, and several shops.

My shopping thus far has included another lovely briefcase, made by Osprey, (I need a new briefcase like I need a hole in the head, but I find that I buy them nonetheless), plus several bespoke shirts ordered in Jermyn Street; that was yesterday. Today, further old buildings were photographed (I love walking slowly in the old parts of ancient cities), with a camera I have been looking forward to using for at least the past year, and, later, a Barbour jacket, and a pair of Spanish shoes (hand made) were bought. As were some history books…...

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, the most important purchase was the last I made today, and it was this: In a small outdoor market in a courtyard in Piccadilly (near where I am staying), I saw a small stall selling odds and ends, small antiques and other bric-a-brac. Anyway, after some chat, and some thought, I ended up buying a rather charming set of six, (solid) silver, tiny coffee spoons which date from the Art Deco era, each complete with a little decorative coffee bean at the top of the handle…....
 
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Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
Several on this thread know that I am in London (civilised, urban, ancient and balm for the soul) just now, for a much needed break.

In addition to theatres (on Wednesday I saw the RSC productions of 'Wolf Hall' and 'Bring Up The Bodies' - both simply superb, first class compelling, and utterly brilliant theatre), I have also visited museums, cafés, (inevitable, that, on this thread), a pub or two, and several shops.

My shopping thus far has included another lovely briefcase, made by Osprey, (I need a new briefcase like I need a hole in the head, but I find that I buy them nonetheless), plus several bespoke shirts ordered in Jermyn Street; that was yesterday. Today, further old buildings were photographed (I love walking slowly in the old parts of ancient cities), with a camera I have been looking forward to using for at least the past year, and, later, a Barbour jacket, and a pair of Spanish shoes (hand made) were bought. As were some history books…...

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, the most important purchase was the last I made today, and it was this: In a small outdoor market in a courtyard in Piccadilly (near where I am staying), I saw a small stall selling odds and ends, small antiques and other bric-a-brac. Anyway, after some chat, and some thought, I ended up buying a rather charming set of six, (solid) silver, tiny coffee spoons which date from the Art Deco era, each complete with a little decorative coffee bean at the top of the handle…....

As I mentioned on another thread...I am so jealous of your purchase of the spoons. My absolute favorite visual arts style is Art Deco...my living room furniture is of the style, and, for me, the most beautiful building in NY is the Chrysler Building.

Enjoy the spoons...and know I am envying you every time you use them!
 

Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
899
347
Several on this thread know that I am in London (civilised, urban, ancient and balm for the soul) just now, for a much needed break.

In addition to theatres (on Wednesday I saw the RSC productions of 'Wolf Hall' and 'Bring Up The Bodies' - both simply superb, first class compelling, and utterly brilliant theatre), I have also visited museums, cafés, (inevitable, that, on this thread), a pub or two, and several shops.

My shopping thus far has included another lovely briefcase, made by Osprey, (I need a new briefcase like I need a hole in the head, but I find that I buy them nonetheless), plus several bespoke shirts ordered in Jermyn Street; that was yesterday. Today, further old buildings were photographed (I love walking slowly in the old parts of ancient cities), with a camera I have been looking forward to using for at least the past year, and, later, a Barbour jacket, and a pair of Spanish shoes (hand made) were bought. As were some history books…...

Anyway, for the purposes of this thread, the most important purchase was the last I made today, and it was this: In a small outdoor market in a courtyard in Piccadilly (near where I am staying), I saw a small stall selling odds and ends, small antiques and other bric-a-brac. Anyway, after some chat, and some thought, I ended up buying a rather charming set of six, (solid) silver, tiny coffee spoons which date from the Art Deco era, each complete with a little decorative coffee bean at the top of the handle…....


Glad you are feeling up to shopping-wandering-around. The spoons sound cool.....post up a pic or two or six.

Be careful, there are some mighty fine (and pricey) fountain pen shops in that there area....
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
As I mentioned on another thread...I am so jealous of your purchase of the spoons. My absolute favorite visual arts style is Art Deco...my living room furniture is of the style, and, for me, the most beautiful building in NY is the Chrysler Building.

Enjoy the spoons...and know I am envying you every time you use them!

Well, I was smiling to myself when I bought them, enjoying the anticipation of posting about the purchase here, on this thread. If my camera were not an old film camera (but an exceedingly good one, I bought it and its lenses, used), I would probably post a picture.

The first set of spoons I was shown were silver plated, and were very nice, but I prefer solid silver, and therefore asked whether they had any. The locked small cabinet was broached, and one such spoon was shown to me; they are very small, light, elegant, perfectly proportioned for an espresso cup (one of the lovely porcelain ones) - the sort which comes complete with its own elegant saucer.

My hands are small, and this spoon (I am holding it as I type) - excluding the coffee bean decoration on the top of the handle - just about equals my middle finger in length. I knew you liked Art Deco (as I do myself - I also like the Regency style, elegant and understated), but hadn't realised you love it. The bowl barely covers the pad of my index finger……perfect for espresso.
 

Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
Well, I was smiling to myself when I bought them, enjoying the anticipation of posting about the purchase here, on this thread. If my camera were not an old film camera (but an exceedingly good one, I bought it and its lenses, used), I would probably post a picture.

The first set of spoons I was shown were silver plated, and were very nice, but I prefer solid silver, and therefore asked whether they had any. The locked small cabinet was broached, and one such spoon was shown to me; they are very small, light, elegant, perfectly proportioned for an espresso cup (one of the lovely porcelain ones) - the sort which comes complete with its own elegant saucer.

My hands are small, and this spoon (I am holding it as I type) - excluding the coffee bean decoration on the top of the handle - just about equals my middle finger in length. I knew you liked Art Deco (as I do myself - I also like the Regency style, elegant and understated), but hadn't realised you love it. The bowl barely covers the pad of my index finger……perfect for espresso.

OK...let's say I'm strongly attracted!:p

Better said...it is my favorite visual arts style!:)
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Glad you are feeling up to shopping-wandering-around. The spoons sound cool.....post up a pic or two or six.

Be careful, there are some mighty fine (and pricey) fountain pen shops in that there area....

Oooooh. Really? Care to mention a few names? I haven't encountered them so far, (just as well), but am in the sort of stupid (cheerfully feckless) mood where any sort of decent temptation is immediately surrendered to, without the least pretence of even a token resistance…..

OK...let's say I'm strongly attracted!:p

Better said...it is my favorite visual arts style!:)

There is nothing wrong with the using the verb 'to love' in connection with art, or architecture, literature or music, my friend. In fact, I use it myself a lot of the time (as in 'I love Mozart'; 'I love the plain, classic, elegant understated lines of Regency furniture'; ) in such contexts.

So, while (I am) quite fulsome in the use of this term re art, literature, architecture, music, I find I am somewhat less generous, or perhaps more parsimonious, in my usage of same when describing relationships with fellow members of my own species….

Edit: I forgot to mention that the set of six silver spoons come nestled and tucked away in their neat own little case.
 
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Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
899
347
Oooooh. Really? Care to mention a few names? I haven't encountered them so far, (just as well), but am in the sort of stupid (cheerfully feckless) mood where any sort of decent temptation is immediately surrendered to, without the least pretence of even a token resistance…..

My favorite London pen shop is Penfriends. There are two locations, one on (not surprisingly) Fleet Street, the other better located for you, near Piccadilly Station on Piccadilly Street. Lots of new pens, but also a healthy selection of vintage pens. Lock up your wallet before setting foot inside the doors....

For fine paper, consider a visit to Shepherd's. I do not recall the exact location well enough to provide directions, but it is very near Westminster. They are a bindery, so they offer lots of paper and even a nice selection of rare books. It's the sort of place you go in and spend 2-3 hours before you realize the time is gone.

One other thought......and I realize there are nine million reasons this will not work, but.....Klaus Vogt is singing Lohengrin in Zurich in October, and Mrs. Kurwenal and I are planning to attend. We will be in Europe only briefly, probably for one night just for the opera, but if you are interested, let me know, as I am starting to source opera tickets. Again, I realize it is the longest of long shots that we might meet up in Zurich, but imagine how much fun it would be to meet and chat about espresso and our friends on this thread over an espresso at one of those little shops on the Sechselaütenplatz, preparatory to 3.5 hours of Wagner.
 

S.B.G

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 8, 2010
26,679
10,464
Detroit
Agreed. Go into ten good coffee shops and order a "machiatto" without specifying more and you will get ten different drinks. Hell, order that drink from different baristas at the same shop and you will get different drinks.

It's even worse with a ristretto. I (personally) believe the proper way to make a ristretto is to adjust only the grinder, nothing else. But if you go into some very good coffee shops, you will find them adjusting the timing, dosing and various other things.

Drinker beware. Know what you like and ask for it. Or live dangerously and drink what you get.

----------



Heated and steamed milk are very different things. Steamed is a subset of heated. You can heat milk in a microwave and various other ways. But, to produce steamed milk, as that term is used in connection with white coffees, you must use a steam wand.

And, not to be confused with frothed milk, which takes the steaming process and adds very tiny air bubbles to which the milk proteins adhere, and which is* the key difference between a latte and a cappuccino.

*perhaps I should instead say "should be" as many, perhaps most, coffee shops get this wrong.

I've never tried to make a ristretto yet. What are your recommended steps for producing a proper one?
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
Well, the ginger tea would still be lovely. ;)

Thanks for the suggestion! healthy, and viewed with a lot less distaste than might normally be the case, I can tell you…….

Actually, I am drinking hot chocolate just now, but ginger tea could well be up next...


My favorite London pen shop is Penfriends. There are two locations, one on (not surprisingly) Fleet Street, the other better located for you, near Piccadilly Station on Piccadilly Street. Lots of new pens, but also a healthy selection of vintage pens. Lock up your wallet before setting foot inside the doors....

For fine paper, consider a visit to Shepherd's. I do not recall the exact location well enough to provide directions, but it is very near Westminster. They are a bindery, so they offer lots of paper and even a nice selection of rare books. It's the sort of place you go in and spend 2-3 hours before you realize the time is gone.

One other thought......and I realize there are nine million reasons this will not work, but.....Klaus Vogt is singing Lohengrin in Zurich in October, and Mrs. Kurwenal and I are planning to attend. We will be in Europe only briefly, probably for one night just for the opera, but if you are interested, let me know, as I am starting to source opera tickets. Again, I realize it is the longest of long shots that we might meet up in Zurich, but imagine how much fun it would be to meet and chat about espresso and our friends on this thread over an espresso at one of those little shops on the Sechselaütenplatz, preparatory to 3.5 hours of Wagner.

Sigh. What a wonderful post.

Let's start with the pen shop……..I am staying in Piccadilly, and obsessively walking the city; on my leaves from Paradise, one of the things I most enjoy doing is walking at length in the heart, the centre, of old cities, cafés nearby for when one wilts, or wishes to sit, and drink, and think…….

Long before taking up my current position, I had loved (that word again, my friend, Shrink) exploring ancient city centres at length; it is just that I now take an even more intense - and visceral - pleasure in being able to walk these streets. I love cities, especially old ones, and inhabited ones, and love their centres where ideas, cultures, trade, ideas, monies and goods and products were all exchanged……...

Anyway, I stood salivating this morning outside an antique small building down a small road from Piccadilly en route to St James's Palace, (all of five minutes walk) which described itself as a hat-shop, founded in 1676…….I photographed this place…...

So, Penfriends, on Piccadilly. I shall google it and walk to it. Wallet will be locked up, but may attempt a bold escape from my pocket. Credit card is known to have stratagems for such occasions and is a most cunning and accomplished escape artist……

So, Shepherd's near Westminster; Mr Google and my London A-Z should help, there…….

And the thought of the possibility of Zurich for Lohengrin……..and coffee…..and chat…..in November…….will have to ponder a little on this…..what a lovely thought…….
 

Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
899
347
I've never tried to make a ristretto yet. What are your recommended steps for producing a proper one?

Huzzah! Sokath, his eyes open!

(just kidding)

Fair warning: you may find it hard to go back to regular espresso.

Basically:

1. Make a double espresso. 2 oz in 25 seconds.

2. Now, make exactly the same coffee, everything the same (same dose, same tamp, same water pressure, same basket...same everything), except grind it finer so you make 1 oz in 25 seconds.

That's it.

The two most likely problems you may run into: (1) this can stress the machine. If you hear the pump struggling, consider bailing out. (2) the grind will be so fine that you may have residue in your cup. Not much you can do about this. Whether you care is up to you.

A few suggestions.

1. You must drink it more quickly than you would an espresso. Otherwise the crema will collapse. This is a drink you consume standing next to the machine, having just pulled the shot seconds before (thus my comments at times about "seconds" in this thread.....for which I have been gently kidded).

2. It will be earthy, not sweet. Don't be surprised. You get a much stronger dose of the "espresso" taste. The coffee will be much more "chewy" than a regular espresso, with a lot more mottling and almost no blonding.

3. The grind, of course, is the key. Tiny, tiny, tiny little changes to the dial are required to get it right. Don't get frustrated....it's worth the effort. A la guerre comme à la guerre....

Best of luck!
 

Shrink

macrumors G3
Feb 26, 2011
8,929
1,727
New England, USA
Huzzah! Sokath, his eyes open!

(just kidding)

Fair warning: you may find it hard to go back to regular espresso.

Basically:

1. Make a double espresso. 2 oz in 25 seconds.

2. Now, make exactly the same coffee, everything the same (same dose, same tamp, same water pressure, same basket...same everything), except grind it finer so you make 1 oz in 25 seconds.

That's it.


The two most likely problems you may run into: (1) this can stress the machine. If you hear the pump struggling, consider bailing out. (2) the grind will be so fine that you may have residue in your cup. Not much you can do about this. Whether you care is up to you.

A few suggestions.

1. You must drink it more quickly than you would an espresso. Otherwise the crema will collapse. This is a drink you consume standing next to the machine, having just pulled the shot seconds before (thus my comments at times about "seconds" in this thread.....for which I have been gently kidded).

2. It will be earthy, not sweet. Don't be surprised. You get a much stronger dose of the "espresso" taste. The coffee will be much more "chewy" than a regular espresso, with a lot more mottling and almost no blonding.

3. The grind, of course, is the key. Tiny, tiny, tiny little changes to the dial are required to get it right. Don't get frustrated....it's worth the effort. A la guerre comme à la guerre....

Best of luck!

Interesting...I may be making a retretto and not knowing it because I make doubles. Since lever machines are built to make a single shot with each pull...my first shot takes about 23-27 seconds. It is my practice to do a second pull, which usually takes a bit less time, by a second or two. So I figure if a fine up the grind just a tiny bit, and quit after the first pull, I'll have a ristretto. I never get any blonding on the first pull (and usually some mottling), and sometimes (not always) a bit on the second pull.

Might try stopping after the first pull tomorrow!
 

Scepticalscribe

macrumors Haswell
Jul 29, 2008
65,199
47,583
In a coffee shop.
I suspect that merely to lock up might be to dangerously underestimate the severity of the situation. :p

Well, the advice to 'lock up' the wallet came from Mr Kurwenal, when he recommended paying a visit to this suspiciously conveniently located outlet called…...Penfriends.

Now, needless to say, I am more than perfectly aware of the exquisitely painful nature of the balancing act that must now be attempted - one which Mr Kurwenal, no doubt had in mind when he mentioned both the shop in question (along with its irresistible and convenient proximity) and advised restraining the wriggling wallet in the same sentence………


But yes, you may be right. Locking up might not do it; what do you suggest? Ball and chain? Dungeon?
 

mobilehaathi

macrumors G3
Aug 19, 2008
9,368
6,353
The Anthropocene
Well, the advice to 'lock up' the wallet came from Mr Kurwenal, when he recommended paying a visit to this suspiciously conveniently located outlet called…...Penfriends.

Now, needless to say, I am more than perfectly aware of the exquisitely painful nature of the balancing act that must now be attempted - one which Mr Kurwenal, no doubt had in mind when he mentioned both the shop in question (along with its irresistible and convenient proximity) and advised restraining the wriggling wallet in the same sentence………


But yes, you may be right. Locking up might not do it; what do you suggest? Ball and chain? Dungeon?

Nothing less than entombment in lead (and perhaps a quick toss into the Mariana Trench).
 

S.B.G

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 8, 2010
26,679
10,464
Detroit
Huzzah! Sokath, his eyes open!

(just kidding)

Fair warning: you may find it hard to go back to regular espresso.

Basically:

1. Make a double espresso. 2 oz in 25 seconds.

2. Now, make exactly the same coffee, everything the same (same dose, same tamp, same water pressure, same basket...same everything), except grind it finer so you make 1 oz in 25 seconds.

That's it.

The two most likely problems you may run into: (1) this can stress the machine. If you hear the pump struggling, consider bailing out. (2) the grind will be so fine that you may have residue in your cup. Not much you can do about this. Whether you care is up to you.

A few suggestions.

1. You must drink it more quickly than you would an espresso. Otherwise the crema will collapse. This is a drink you consume standing next to the machine, having just pulled the shot seconds before (thus my comments at times about "seconds" in this thread.....for which I have been gently kidded).

2. It will be earthy, not sweet. Don't be surprised. You get a much stronger dose of the "espresso" taste. The coffee will be much more "chewy" than a regular espresso, with a lot more mottling and almost no blonding.

3. The grind, of course, is the key. Tiny, tiny, tiny little changes to the dial are required to get it right. Don't get frustrated....it's worth the effort. A la guerre comme à la guerre....

Best of luck!

Ahh, alright, thanks. I may need some descriptive definitions, or even photos of mottling and blonding!

I do take your words of stressing the machine with great concern. I wonder about the strength and sustainability of the Gaggia Baby at times. But I will give it a try and see how it turns out! ☕
 

Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
899
347
Interesting...I may be making a retretto and not knowing it because I make doubles. Since lever machines are built to make a single shot with each pull...my first shot takes about 23-27 seconds. It is my practice to do a second pull, which usually takes a bit less time, by a second or two. So I figure if a fine up the grind just a tiny bit, and quit after the first pull, I'll have a ristretto. I never get any blonding on the first pull (and usually some mottling), and sometimes (not always) a bit on the second pull.

Might try stopping after the first pull tomorrow!

It's possible you have been making ristrettos (recognizing the malleability of the terms). But I doubt it, given your previous descriptions of your shots and your extensive knowledge of grinds. A ristretto is almost into turkish coffee territory (at least on both the Rocket and GS/3).

Ultimately, a ristretto is defined by the shot ratio, which is the ratio of dry coffee to shot size. For example, for a regular espresso shot, you might have 14 grams of liquid from 7 grams of regular espresso grinds, to produce a shot ratio of 14:7, or 50%. It can get confusing, as you can have low, medium and high shots, depending on strength preference; but, in general, an "espresso" will have a shot ratio that works out to a number between 40% and 60%. The famous Golden Rule of Espresso is derived from the shot ratio.

In contrast, a ristretto will have a shot ratio of 100%, or from 60% to 140%, depending on desired strength. Basically, double that of regular espresso, which makes sense as you alter only the grind (and nothing else, which is what produced my rant up-thread a bit; grinding for a shot ratio of ~50% but then stopping the pull at .75 oz does not produce a ristretto; it produces a half-baked espresso).

So, just consider what you described as your "first shot"; it will be closer to one of these:

16g dry coffee, 32 liquid grams, or gross volume (including crema) of between 40 and 70 ml (1.3 - 2.6 oz).

Or:

16g dry coffee, 16 liquid grams, or gross volume (including crema) of between 20 and 38 ml (.7 - 1.3 oz).

Obviously, keeping all other factors (especially pull time) identical.

This is why I measure every shot....before and after I pull it.

Or: another way you can tell. Pull what you describe as your "first shot" as normal. Take a picture. Then start adjusting the grind to fine and keep pulling shots until you produce a shot with exactly 50% of the liquid volume of the first (all other factors kept identical). Take a picture. Compare the two pictures and it will be obvious, I think, whether the first or the second is more "ristretto-like." I suggest pictures as the crema breaks down pretty fast on a ristretto.

Or: do the same experiment, but just taste the shots. If your "first shot" is really a ristretto (which, as I said, I doubt), the second shot will taste coarse and probably be undrinkable. If, however, as I suspect, your first shot is an espresso and the second shot is a ristretto, both will taste great, just different.

By the way, there are some very good coffee shops in the US that list "espresso" on the menu but actually pull ristrettos. You can tell by timing the pull, so long as you can see the volume.
 
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Kurwenal

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2012
899
347
Ahh, alright, thanks. I may need some descriptive definitions, or even photos of mottling and blonding!

I do take your words of stressing the machine with great concern. I wonder about the strength and sustainability of the Gaggia Baby at times. But I will give it a try and see how it turns out! ☕

I think your Gaggia will do just fine. They are tough machines. You have a Rocky as I recall, right?

Mottling: mottling is an indication of a great shot. Mottling is splotches in the crema, sort of rust-colored or dark brown sometimes.

Blonding: when you pull a proper shot, the coffee streaming out of the portafilter changes colors, starting at dark brown, then the famous tiger-striping, then to blonding, where the coffee is mostly, well, blonde. When the blonding is uniform, it is time to end the pull (quickly).

So, this is why I take pictures of so many of my shots (and annoy you all by posting some of them.....). With a picture, you can inspect the shot and really see the mottling. Plus, that way you can snap a quick pick and then drink while the shot is fresh, and study the picture later.
 

S.B.G

Moderator
Staff member
Sep 8, 2010
26,679
10,464
Detroit
I think your Gaggia will do just fine. They are tough machines. You have a Rocky as I recall, right?

Mottling: mottling is an indication of a great shot. Mottling is splotches in the crema, sort of rust-colored or dark brown sometimes.

Blonding: when you pull a proper shot, the coffee streaming out of the portafilter changes colors, starting at dark brown, then the famous tiger-striping, then to blonding, where the coffee is mostly, well, blonde. When the blonding is uniform, it is time to end the pull (quickly).

So, this is why I take pictures of so many of my shots (and annoy you all by posting some of them.....). With a picture, you can inspect the shot and really see the mottling. Plus, that way you can snap a quick pick and then drink while the shot is fresh, and study the picture later.

Ahh okay. I know precisely what you mean now. I just didn't know there were terms associated with them. Thanks!

Yes I have a Rocky sitting next to the Gaggia.
 
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