Espresso Enthusiasts

[VideoFreek]

Hi.

What grinder do you have or plan to purchase? The grinder, obviously, is by far the most important part of the kit. The grinder makes the drink; the espresso machine just pushes water around.

I am not familiar with either machine, but a few things jumped out at me from the pages you linked.

Both are automatic machines. Many view automatics as producing lower-quality espresso than a semi-automatic. There are valid reasons to purchase an automatic, and the previous sentence is not true for every automatic. But, if you have not seriously researched whether you want a semi-auto or an auto, doing that is worth your time.

The Mini does not have pre-infusion built in, which is very odd for what claims to be a high-end machine, but an option is available to add a "pre-infusion chamber." I don't understand why pre-infusion would require a separate chamber, and that raises all sorts of questions in my mind. Just be sure you research the issue.

The Vivaldi is a plumb-only machine, ie, no water tank and you have to hook it up to your home water supply. Not a huge deal, I plumb my machines, but be sure this is what you want.

The Mini cannot be plumbed (either the supply or the drain). I would not purchase such a machine, but you will have to decide whether this matters to you.

The Vivaldi comes stock with a steam wand with only one hole. If you are serious about white coffee, you would want to change/upgrade this.

53mm portafilters? Check to see whether they can use standard baskets. Neither machine is E61, which is fine, but check to be sure Strada or VST baskets are available for the machines.

Sorry, I am leaving you with more questions than advice.....but these are things I would consider in evaluating the machines.

Chris' Coffee is a GREAT shop, by the way.

Best of luck with your purchase!

Thank you so much for the advice and great points. A few clarifications/ corrections:

I have a Mazzer Mini grinder.

It is true the machines offer an auto mode (volumetric dosing), but semi-automatic operation is also possible (manual on/off for the pump).

The pre-infusion chamber is said to mimic the characteristics of an E61 group. Many users online report it makes little difference.

I will not plumb in a machine, so a front-loading tank is perfect for me.

The Dream T (which I've just bought) has a steam tip with four 0.9mm holes. Steaming performance is said to be great on the Spaz machines.

No 53mm Strada or VST baskets available (yet). Admittedly a downside of La Spaziale, but the thinner, deeper basket is said (by some) to give better distribution than the "standard" 58mm.

Thanks for the kind wishes, and I'm sure I'll be back here with plenty of requests for advice!

 

[Shrink]

A warm welcome back, and we are (well, I am) delighted to hear your dulcet tones discussing - what else? - but the further details of espresso machines and grinders………

Re day and pay……well, I suggest that you put it this way, and think of it as a cost benefit analysis. What is another day without pay compared with the possible cost of several - as in many - more days without pay should a relapse occur?

(And here, I speak - or write - from experience; twice in my life, I have had relapses, in both cases caused by returning - in one case to school, in another to work - too early).

With a relapse, the time unit of further illness ceases to be days, and becomes…..another week, or two, because an already weakened individual is further poleaxed. An extra day without pay is little for the peace of mind - and rest of body - that a better chance of proper recovery will bring…..

Oh, and an edit: Are your taste buds sufficiently recovered to be able to appreciate espresso? I ask because one of the signs that I am under the weather is - invariably - a reduced desire for my daily dose of coffee….

Glad to see you are feeling better.

Thanks, folks, for the welcome back...still very tired, but improving. This pneumonia thing is a nasty business.

And, yes...for the past few days I have been enjoying my current roast batch of Moka Kadir.

And now...back to the couch for the day!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Thanks, folks, for the welcome back...still very tired, but improving. This pneumonia thing is a nasty business.

And, yes...for the past few days I have been enjoying my current roast batch of Moka Kadir.

And now...back to the couch for the day!

Good to hear that you are improving. Cue the sound of cheers.

However, better the couch (or the bed) for the day than a stressful work environment when you are recovering from something as debilitating as pneumonia.

In fact, when you do finally choose (or feel compelled) to return to the world of work, my advice would be to select a day when you know that the work load will be less onerous; there are usually one or two days in an average week where things fall a little easier.

 

[S.B.G]

I missed my morning coffee today and subsequently seem to have gained a minor headache. Therefore I just finished a straight double shot for a quick injection of caffeine.

 

[S.B.G]

I've made an unexpected, and slightly disturbing discovery this evening. In regards to my French Press coffee, and the Dessert Oasis Coffee Roasters beans, probably not so much the beans though, and ceramic vs. glass mugs.

So far, and nearly always, I drink my coffee from the Bodum double-wall glass mugs. This evening, for no other reason than I felt like using one of my other, favorite, ceramic mugs that I hadn't used in quite a while.

Once I poured the coffee in the ceramic mug and began to drink it, I noticed it tasted drastically different, and not in a good way. I mean, it wasn't bad, but it did not taste nearly as good as the glass mug I usually use.

This is the first time I've noticed a difference in taste between glass and ceramic whereby all other factors were exactly the same.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I've made an unexpected, and slightly disturbing discovery this evening. In regards to my French Press coffee, and the Dessert Oasis Coffee Roasters beans, probably not so much the beans though, and ceramic vs. glass mugs.

So far, and nearly always, I drink my coffee from the Bodum double-wall glass mugs. This evening, for no other reason than I felt like using one of my other, favorite, ceramic mugs that I hadn't used in quite a while.

Once I poured the coffee in the ceramic mug and began to drink it, I noticed it tasted drastically different, and not in a good way. I mean, it wasn't bad, but it did not taste nearly as good as the glass mug I usually use.

This is the first time I've noticed a difference in taste between glass and ceramic whereby all other factors were exactly the same.

Now, this is extremely interesting.

Re glass, I note that both your good self, and Dr Shrink, have opted for glass from which to drink coffee/espresso.

My own personal preference is for glassware for wine, beer, port, cognac……and porcelain or ceramic or china for coffee or - perish the thought - tea (although there is surprisingly good tea to be had in central Asia)………

And you find that there is a difference, and 'not in a good way'…..Hm.

 

[S.B.G]

Now, this is extremely interesting.

Re glass, I note that both your good self, and Dr Shrink, have opted for glass from which to drink coffee/espresso.

My own personal preference is for glassware for wine, beer, port, cognac……and porcelain or ceramic or china for coffee or - perish the thought - tea (although there is surprisingly good tea to be had in central Asia)………

And you find that there is a difference, and 'not in a good way'…..Hm.

Its very interesting. Is it that my taste buds are are progressing to the point of distinguishing between ceramic and glass? Will it mean that I'll no longer be able to enjoy certain coffees in specific materials?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Its very interesting. Is it that my taste buds are are progressing to the point of distinguishing between ceramic and glass? Will it mean that I'll no longer be able to enjoy certain coffees in specific materials?

Yes, I'll confess that I was surprised when I realised that our mutual mentor in matters related to coffee/espresso, Dr Shrink, used (uses?) solid little glass cups in which to pour/from which to drink - his espresso.

Now, I am rather partial to Italian porcelain espresso cups, and have never much cared for the school of thought which desired glassware from which to drink coffee or espresso. So, yes, this is interesting……..

Sight, scent, and taste……all involved in this complicated adjudication process…..

 

[S.B.G]

Yes, I'll confess that I was surprised when I realised that our mutual mentor in matters related to coffee/espresso, Dr Shrink, used (uses?) solid little glass cups in which to pour/from which to drink - his espresso.

Now, I am rather partial to Italian porcelain espresso cups, and have never much cared for the school of thought which desired glassware from which to drink coffee or espresso. So, yes, this is interesting……..

Sight, scent, and taste……all involved in this complicated adjudication process…..

What I am curious to know is, which material is more porous, glass or ceramic? Does that have the effect of creating the taste difference?

 

[Scepticalscribe]

I missed my morning coffee today and subsequently seem to have gained a minor headache. Therefore I just finished a straight double shot for a quick injection of caffeine.

I meant to refer to this post earlier; my deepest commiserations and heartfelt sympathies. This is because I know (very well) what caffeine withdrawal (or the lack thereof) actually feels like, especially when you have developed a…..strong preference (or liking) for it……not nice at all. And the only known remedy for which is an immediate…….double dose…..

What I am curious to know is, which material is more porous, glass or ceramic? Does that have the effect of creating the taste difference?

Now, here, I am not quite sure which of the senses reigns supreme in offering informed (or uninformed by naught except mere prejudice, or worse, blind or slavish adherence to tradition...).

Certainly, it must be conceded my visual sense is a little offended at the thought of coffee (espresso) which is not in a porcelain (or ceramic) mug. Perhaps the olfactory sense is affected, too…..

But the taste buds……now, this I cannot say….

 

[S.B.G]

I meant to refer to this post earlier; my deepest commiserations and heartfelt sympathies. This is because I know (very well) what caffeine withdrawal (or the lack thereof) actually feels like, especially when you have developed a…..strong preference (or liking) for it……not nice at all. And the only known remedy for which is an immediate…….double dose…..

Thank you for the sympathy. The double, plus the press coffee, in the ceramic mug, and later a caffe mocha all seemed to work to eliminate the minor headache. Now, I'll probably have a time getting to sleep tonight!

Now, here, I am not quite sure which of the senses reigns supreme in offering informed (or uninformed by naught except mere prejudice, or worse, blind or slavish adherence to tradition...).

Certainly, it must be conceded my visual sense is a little offended at the thought of coffee (espresso) which is not in a porcelain (or ceramic) mug. Perhaps the olfactory sense is affected, too…..

But the taste buds……now, this I cannot say….

I didn't notice any olfactory difference in the ceramic mug, but strictly in the taste bud area only.

I do agree that the sight of coffee in a ceramic or porcelain mug does look much nicer than plain old glass, but, apparently, unbeknownst to me, until today, my taste buds are advising me otherwise.

 

[Shrink]

Yes, I'll confess that I was surprised when I realised that our mutual mentor in matters related to coffee/espresso, Dr Shrink, used (uses?) solid little glass cups in which to pour/from which to drink - his espresso.

Now, I am rather partial to Italian porcelain espresso cups, and have never much cared for the school of thought which desired glassware from which to drink coffee or espresso. So, yes, this is interesting……..

Sight, scent, and taste……all involved in this complicated adjudication process…..

I use the Bodum Double Wall cup for two reasons...since I drink doubles, when properly pre-heated, the double wall insulation maintains heat for longer than a pre-heated porcelain cup. The second reason is aesthetic...I love the sight of the coffee with it's gorgeous head of crema. I would guess that the glass is less porous than porcelain (just a guess)...and I recall reading that the double wall cups hold heat better than porcelain, again given that a double takes a bit longer to consume than a ristretto or a single.

Thank you for the sympathy. The double, plus the press coffee, in the ceramic mug, and later a caffe mocha all seemed to work to eliminate the minor headache. Now, I'll probably have a time getting to sleep tonight!



I didn't notice any olfactory difference in the ceramic mug, but strictly in the taste bud area only.

I do agree that the sight of coffee in a ceramic or porcelain mug does look much nicer than plain old glass, but, apparently, unbeknownst to me, until today, my taste buds are advising me otherwise.

Taste buds taste only sweet, sour, bitter, salt (and some include umami). All the rest of taste is olfactory...so unless porcelain falls under one of the 4 (or 5) taste bud tastes...ant effect would be olfactory.

And an aside...I love the way an espresso looks in a plain old glass cup!

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Thank you for the sympathy. The double, plus the press coffee, in the ceramic mug, and later a caffe mocha all seemed to work to eliminate the minor headache. Now, I'll probably have a time getting to sleep tonight!



I didn't notice any olfactory difference in the ceramic mug, but strictly in the taste bud area only.

I do agree that the sight of coffee in a ceramic or porcelain mug does look much nicer than plain old glass, but, apparently, unbeknownst to me, until today, my taste buds are advising me otherwise.

It is entirely possible that - in this matter - my taste buds have been overruled by my visual preferences, - which does seem to bring to mind that old dilemma, or argument - as to which sense should determine the final outcome or decision?

Now, it is equally possible that sensory memories (and informed memories) are also playing a role, here, as my memory informs me that anytime (in the dim, distant past, I grant you) that I drank coffee from a glass, I didn't like it….whether this was because the coffee itself was grim, or because the glass distorted the experience, I cannot say…..

Whereas, anytime I drank coffee - or, more to the point, espresso - (in Italy) from a small, elegant, beautifully fired, and perfectly formed, porcelain cup, the experience was transcendental. Is this a case of memory reinforcing preference, or preference guiding memory and current choices?

However, obviously, coffee aficionados will argue that taste should trump visual preferences, but I suspect that what the brain reads as the total sensory experience is a calculated combination (howsoever calculated) of the entire sensory experience, with memory chipping in its shredded and partisan remnants, too.

----------

I use the Bodum Double Wall cup for two reasons...since I drink doubles, when properly pre-heated, the double wall insulation maintains heat for longer than a pre-heated porcelain cup. The second reason is aesthetic...I love the sight of the coffee with it's gorgeous head of crema. I would guess that the glass is less porous than porcelain (just a guess)...and I recall reading that the double wall cups hold heat better than porcelain, again given that a double takes a bit longer to consume than a ristretto or a single.



Taste buds taste only sweet, sour, bitter, salt (and some include umami). All the rest of taste is olfactory...so unless porcelain falls under one of the 4 (or 5) taste bud tastes...ant effect would be olfactory.

And an aside...I love the way an espresso looks in a plain old glass cup!

Ah, I had wondered when we would tempt you out from under the comfort of the duvet on your couch……well, may I extend a warm welcome back to you. Good to see you, hear you, read you, here…..

Me, I love those solid little espresso porcelain mugs made by Italians……credit cards have been known to sneak out of wallets to buy such things, even when I was on a teacher's (limited) income…..

 

[S.B.G]

It is entirely possible that - in this matter - my taste buds have been overruled by my visual preferences, - which does seem to bring to mind that old dilemma, or argument - as to which sense should determine the final outcome or decision?

Now, it is equally possible that sensory memories (and informed memories) are also playing a role, here, as my memory informs me that anytime (in the dim, distant past, I grant you) that I drank coffee from a glass, I didn't like it….whether this was because the coffee itself was grim, or because the glass distorted the experience, I cannot say…..

Whereas, anytime I drank coffee - or, more to the point, espresso - (in Italy) from a small, elegant, beautifully fired, and perfectly formed, porcelain cup, the experience was transcendental. Is this a case of memory reinforcing preference, or preference guiding memory and current choices?

However, obviously, coffee aficionados will argue that taste should trump visual preferences, but I suspect that what the brain reads as the total sensory experience is a calculated combination (howsoever calculated) of the entire sensory experience, with memory chipping in its shredded and partisan remnants, too.

I would have to agree with those coffee aficionados in that, the taste should trump the visual appearances. Of course, that's my opinion and Shrink's law always comes into play.

Regardless, I think this subject is becoming very serious and I'd like to investigate it further. I want to know why I taste the difference in the coffee between the materials.

 

[Shrink]

I would have to agree with those coffee aficionados in that, the taste should trump the visual appearances. Of course, that's my opinion and Shrink's law always comes into play.

Regardless, I think this subject is becoming very serious and I'd like to investigate it further. I want to know why I taste the difference in the coffee between the materials.

Let me offer just a guess as to the different tastes...fist, it's olfactory input...and possibly an expectation phenomenon.

To test the olfactory input, hold your nose closed while drinking the coffee. I think you'll find that the coffee tastes like nothing much at all with olfactory input eliminated...and you won't notice the material in the cup at all.

 

[S.B.G]

Let me offer just a guess as to the different tastes...fist, it's olfactory input...and possibly an expectation phenomenon.

To test the olfactory input, hold your nose closed while drinking the coffee. I think you'll find that the coffee tastes like nothing much at all with olfactory input eliminated...and you won't notice the material in the cup at all.

That's something to try out. Though, usually, I only notice the smell when I open the bag of beans and when I grind them. I don't actually take notice of any smell at all after it's been brewed.

 

[Shrink]

That's something to try out. Though, usually, I only notice the smell when I open the bag of beans and when I grind them. I don't actually take notice of any smell at all after it's been brewed.

Believe me, you (and everyone) experiences olfactory input. Remember, 80% of taste is smell. The only in-mouth "tastes" are sweet, sour, bitter, and salt (and, again, possibly umami)...everything else is smell, whether one is aware of it or not.

Holding your nose and drinking coffee will cause the coffee to taste pretty much like slightly bitter hot water.

BTW...If you really want to do the test, the nostrils must be totally occluded all during the preparation process, too.

 

[S.B.G]

Believe me, you (and everyone) experiences olfactory input. Remember, 80% of taste is smell. The only in-mouth "tastes" are sweet, sour, bitter, and salt (and, again, possibly umami)...everything else is smell, whether one is aware of it or not.

Holding your nose and drinking coffee will cause the coffee to taste pretty much like slightly bitter hot water.

I'm not dismissing what you're telling me, its just that I don't notice it. I will try holding my nose next time and see what happens.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Let me offer just a guess as to the different tastes...fist, it's olfactory input...and possibly an expectation phenomenon.

To test the olfactory input, hold your nose closed while drinking the coffee. I think you'll find that the coffee tastes like nothing much at all with olfactory input eliminated...and you won't notice the material in the cup at all.

Ah, someone who sees (sorry sniffs, smells, and scents) the world in similar terms. Excellent…….(brisk rubbing of hands)…..

That's something to try out. Though, usually, I only notice the smell when I open the bag of beans and when I grind them. I don't actually take notice of any smell at all after it's been brewed.

Um, Dr Shrink is absolutely right on this one. I recall my stunned stupefaction when Sr Monica - our science teacher in high school - discussed this very matter one rather overcast and dull afternoon, (dull weather, not dull biology), oh, a few, um, years ago…..

Believe me, you (and everyone) experiences olfactory input. Remember, 80% of taste is smell. The only in-mouth "tastes" are sweet, sour, bitter, and salt (and, again, possibly umami)...everything else is smell, whether one is aware of it or not.

Holding your nose and drinking coffee will cause the coffee to taste pretty much like slightly bitter hot water.

BTW...If you really want to do the test, the nostrils must be totally occluded all during the preparation process, too.

Yes. A very revealing test, actually.

And, why else do estate agents (an old trick, this one) try to have the alluring aroma of freshly ground coffee in a house - which they are hoping to sell - while you are viewing it? Even though one is wish to such wiles, one still - not so much succumbs - as enjoys the scent when it is offered as part of the entire experience of viewing (and playing psychological games…..)

 

[Shrink]

Ah, someone who sees (sorry sniffs, smells, and scents) the world in similar terms. Excellent…….(brisk rubbing of hands)…..



Um, Dr Shrink is absolutely right on this one. I recall my stunned stupefaction when Sr Monica - our science teacher in high school - discussed this very matter one rather overcast and dull afternoon, (dull weather, not dull biology), oh, a few, um, years ago…..



Yes. A very revealing test, actually.

And, why else do estate agents (an old trick, this one) try to have the alluring aroma of freshly ground coffee in a house - which they are hoping to sell - while you are viewing it? Even though one is wish to such wiles, one still - not so much succumbs - as enjoys the scent when it is offered as part of the entire experience of viewing (and playing psychological games…..)

The cute little High School test often used was to blindfold and clip closed the nose of a student, and then ask them to distinguish between an apple and a very strong onion. With no visual or olfactory information, the two are indistinguishable.

 

[mobilehaathi]

The cute little High School test often used was to blindfold and clip closed the nose of a student, and then ask them to distinguish between an apple and a very strong onion. With no visual or olfactory information, the two are indistinguishable.

By god, >1 post in a day. !

 

[Scepticalscribe]

The cute little High School test often used was to blindfold and clip closed the nose of a student, and then ask them to distinguish between an apple and a very strong onion. With no visual or olfactory information, the two are indistinguishable.

By god, >1 post in a day. !

Yes, and it is most heartening to see.

Actually, I think the positive conclusion we can draw is that Dr Shrink may be firmly set on the slow enough road to full recovery as he now feels able to participate a bit more actively with his usual blend of information and insight...

 

[S.B.G]

Coffee Breath

Alright, here's an odd coffee related topic. Coffee breath.

I have a tech from one of my vendor's at the office today - a nice guy, does great work - but has awful coffee breath. I can smell it from at least 4 feet away when he's talking. I'm sure we've all been around people with bad breath or bad coffee breath. As far as I can tell, I do not have this problem, and I've asked my co-workers before too!

What is it that give certain people horrible coffee breath? Is it the actual coffee they drink, no doubt the sort of product that is labeled coffee, but to those of us here, we know better that, that stuff isn't really coffee. Or is it a combination of other health related factors that cause the offending odor?

 

[Shrink]

Alright, here's an odd coffee related topic. Coffee breath.

I have a tech from one of my vendor's at the office today - a nice guy, does great work - but has awful coffee breath. I can smell it from at least 4 feet away when he's talking. I'm sure we've all been around people with bad breath or bad coffee breath. As far as I can tell, I do not have this problem, and I've asked my co-workers before too!

What is it that give certain people horrible coffee breath? Is it the actual coffee they drink, no doubt the sort of product that is labeled coffee, but to those of us here, we know better that, that stuff isn't really coffee. Or is it a combination of other health related factors that cause the offending odor?

It's probably a combination of coffee consumption and lack of oral hygiene.

This brief article discusses the effect of caffeine on saliva production, and the effect of reduced saliva on breath smell...

 

[S.B.G]

It's probably a combination of coffee consumption and lack of oral hygiene.

This brief article discusses the effect of caffeine on saliva production, and the effect of reduced saliva on breath smell...

Thanks for the article.

----

The espresso shot pitchers arrived today, rather yesterday. It was most unfortunate that Newman wouldn't leave the small package at my door yesterday. But instead left a slip to where I had to drive downtown to the Post Office to pick it up today. I don't get the USPS. Sometimes they will leave a package and other times they won't. No signature was required for this either.

Regardless, I have them now.