Espresso Enthusiasts

[Kurwenal]

No, I wasn't (alas) in the Wiener Staatsoper, though it has long been a dream of mine to be able to attend the annual New Year's concert, there.

Same here. But I think it's like getting tickets to Beyreuth....you have to be very lucky or very rich. I'm surprised that your secret agent skills have not produced tickets, but I suppose that would risk blowing your cover.

Anyway, J. Strauss was a hero in our house, too, (and was especially revered by my father) and for years, my New Year's ritual, and tradition, (even when suffering from a grumpy undergrad hangover, as a result of excessive indulgence the previous night) was to watch the New Year's Concert, on TV, with my father, who rejoiced in such exquisite music.

Very happy to hear that. Wonderful. Strauss is not my favorite (sshhhh, don't tell my Mother that), actually any of them, but I do enjoy the concert and music. According to the New York Times a few weeks ago, tonight's concert should be special as it will celebrate the "other Strauss's" 150th birthday. The concert plays here, usually the same evening West Coast time. It starts 2 hours and 48 minutes from now, on PBS, and I shall be watching and enjoying several espressos during the performance. Cheers!

The New Year will start well for me.

My new Baratza Vario is scheduled to be delivered tomorrow.
I'm ready for the next level

-t

Congratulations!

I have just subscribed to this thread

Welcome. Good advice there from Shrinktabulous. Get your wallet out.

Edited to Add: my moka pot just arrived!

 

[S.B.G]

Looks like we suckered, hooked, harpooned a new recruit!

Welcome aboard to the coffee crazy thread!

 

[DeSnousa]

This thread is great, everyone is inviting.

Thank you all, and thanks for the advice. I will look into a tamp hopefully this weekend

 

[S.B.G]

I will look into a tamp hopefully this weekend

It's gravely important to have a proper tamp and avoid the plastic ones at all costs. Coffee enthusiasts lives depend on it!

 

[Shrink]

It's gravely important to have a proper tamp and avoid the plastic ones at all costs. Coffee enthusiasts lives depend on it!

And he's never a man to overstate his case!

 

[DeSnousa]

Also I need some help with what the pucks are meant to look like. I have been told that a good extraction should result in the discards still retaining their shape. Mine mostly slop out in chunks?

 

[S.B.G]

Also I need some help with what the pucks are meant to look like. I have been told that a good extraction should result in the discards still retaining their shape. Mine mostly slop out in chunks?

It's my understanding that the drier the puck the better and when knocked out it either breaks in half or stays whole. I've heard that there are folks who make it a point of pride that their pucks are very dry and stay whole after being knocked out.

Mine generally either stay whole and dry or break in half. But I am sure Shrink could shed more light on this subject.

 

[Shrink]

Also I need some help with what the pucks are meant to look like. I have been told that a good extraction should result in the discards still retaining their shape. Mine mostly slop out?

The "ideal" puck looks like a...well, puck! It comes out of the PF in one dry piece.

Having said that, having a soupy puck isn't anything to worry about. I don't know if your machine has a three way solenoid, but those without can produce a soupy puck. Also, some folks suggest that one leave the PF in place while consuming their espresso, and that allows the puck to dry out a bit. It is possible that your dosing (the amount of grind in the basket prior to tamping) might be a bit off. You might check your dose weight and make sure it's the right amount for that basket.

Whatever it is...it's really nothing of any serious concern.

Edit: Also, if you are not using a knockbox, it might cause the puck to break up even if it's dry. Really not a big deal!

 

[DeSnousa]

The "ideal" puck looks like a...well, puck! It comes out of the PF in one dry piece.

Having said that, having a soupy puck isn't anything to worry about. I don't know if your machine has a three way solenoid, but those without can produce a soupy puck. Also, some folks suggest that one leave the PF in place while consuming their espresso, and that allows the puck to dry out a bit. It is possible that your dosing (the amount of grind in the basket prior to tamping) might be a bit off. You might check your dose weight and make sure it's the right amount for that basket.

Whatever it is...it's really nothing of any serious concern.

Soupy would be the correct term. I know the model I got creates espresso with a over focus on crema to appeal to buyers. This is done by how the liquid at the base expels out to the cup.

When dosing I will usually fill the puck (or what ever that is called ), tap it on the bench so that it 'falls flat' and refill to the top. Then I will tamp. Do most weigh the dose?

Thanks for all the input.

 

[Shrink]

Soupy would be the correct term. I know the model I got creates espresso with a over focus on crema to appeal to buyers. This is done by how the liquid at the base expels out to the cup.

When dosing I will usually fill the puck (or what ever that is called ), tap it on the bench so that it 'falls flat' and refill to the top. Then I will tamp. Do most weigh the dose?

Thanks for all the input.

If you're using one of the high pressure baskets included with many machines (which are supposed to pump up the crema) that might make a difference. I'm not sure about that as I never used those baskets.

The amount of crema you get is partially a function of the machine, and also very much effected by your bean blend, and it's freshness.

I don't think most weigh their dose...I'm a particularly sick individual, and I have a single dose grinder that allows for very exact bean dosing. I weigh my dose on a scale with a 0.01GM resolution. See...I told you I was nuts (Trust me...everyone here will happily confirm the severity of my sickness).

As long as after the tamp there is about a 3MM space between the top of the puck and the top of the basket...your in good shape. It's hard to weigh your dose with a grinder with a catch bin. You can weigh your bean dose pior to grinding, but you have to take the grinder's retention into account. The retention is effected by the particular grinder, the blend, the roast, and the environmental conditions. Very dry conditions tend to increase grinder retention. If you really want to weigh your dose you really need a scale with less that a 1GM resolution (if possible), then put in a known amount (say 18GMs), then weigh what comes out. If your basket is specced for, say, 17Gms, as mine is...you can then have some idea of what your grinder's retention is with that blend on that day's environmental conditions.

Unless you have a single dose, doserless grinder like mine...it seems to me to be an unnecessary pain in the butt. As long as there is that roughly 3mm (I need to measure that guess...I'm going from eyeball memory!) space between the top of the puck and the top of the basket after the tamp...you are all good.

 

[S.B.G]

Soupy would be the correct term. I know the model I got creates espresso with a over focus on crema to appeal to buyers. This is done by how the liquid at the base expels out to the cup.

When dosing I will usually fill the puck (or what ever that is called ), tap it on the bench so that it 'falls flat' and refill to the top. Then I will tamp. Do most weigh the dose?

Thanks for all the input.

I weigh my doses and generally put between 17 and 19 grams in the portafilter basket.

 

[Kurwenal]

When dosing I will usually fill the puck (or what ever that is called ), tap it on the bench so that it 'falls flat' and refill to the top. Then I will tamp. Do most weigh the dose?

Thanks for all the input.

I weigh every shot, even though I have been using my grinder (Mazzer Mini) for many years and it produces nearly perfectly consistent amounts of coffee into the basket. I apologize as I don't know whether you are new at this or a seasoned veteran, so forgive me if this causes you to roll your eyes, but if you are new (or new-ish) I would definitely weigh your shots. For at least a while.

I also time at least the first shot of any session, which is often a throw away shot that I do not drink, but use only to make fine adjustments to the Mazzer. I highly recommend timing your shots. Don't use the timer to control shot length; in fact, ignore the timer (other than turning it on and then off) until after the shot is pulled. It is a very useful reference *after* you have tasted the coffee.

You often can diagnose puck problems by looking at the bottom of the puck during brewing, using a bottomless filter -- do you have one of these?

Do your soupy shots taste good? If so, not sure I would worry about it all much, unless by soupy you mean "I could water ski on the top of the puck." It happens. I had a shot just this morning that was wet, which is unusual. But, hey, it tasted ok and I just went with it.

More important than the Campbell's problem is the consistency of your puck. Look especially for little holes or tunnels running into or (god forbid) through your puck, which is called channeling and will lead to less than optimal taste. There are ways to fix that if that is your issue (sometimes by just knocking (i.e., gently taping) the portafilter gently against the grinder while it is dosing your portafilter). I do that just by habit.

++++++++++

I fired up the Bialetti and have made 5 batches (not sure what to call them, certainly not shots or cups). The first 2 were junk beans that I did not taste. The next 3 all tasted what I would call over-extracted if I were pulling shots, which of course I am not. I followed the Stumptown directions, including pre-heating the water (I went to 205 F), and I used what I know is very nice and fresh Blue Bottle Decaf Noir coffee, ground using the same settings I use for my vacuum brewer (which various posts on the Internet suggest is the correct grind for this device). What I was (am) not sure of is how long to leave the coffee on the heat. The Stumptown directions say to do that until the coffee turns "yellow honey" color, which is a color I did not see on any of the 5 batches, and I pulled the coffee off the heat when the Bialetti started spitting coffee around on the stove.

Anyway, I remain intrigued and, when I have more time tomorrow, will haul out a pad and pen and start experimenting with how long to leave the coffee on the heat. In the meantime, appreciate any suggestions. FYI, I am using the 4 cup model, which produces (for me so far) 3 oz of coffee.

Off to watch the concert.

 

[VideoFreek]

Hi all;

Thanks for the warm welcome and great advice. I really do enjoy the vibe on this thread.

...you're sufficiently warped now to be a member!

This much I already knew!!

Although I'm sure you are aware of what you're getting yourself into using a semi-automatic espresso machine (my preference over an automatic or super automatic machine...I enjoy the process), let me just offer the caveat that you are going from a push-the-button-and-come-back-and-there's-your-coffee to and good deal more work, time and mess!

Great caveat! I'm aware that I'm giving up convenience. Besides Nespresso, I've used a high-end Jura super automatic when I was working in Germany, which my German colleagues affectionately called the "Swiss Tamagotchi" due to the constant stream of demands for care and feeding that it would flash on its display (descale me! clean me! empty my grounds bin! change my water filter! etc.). Nevertheless, a more hands-on approach appeals to me. As a chemical engineer by background (I like to say I'm a recovering Chemical Engineer), the idea of manipulating various physical parameters (time, temperature, pressure, grind size, etc.) to optimize extraction appeals to me. Now you know I really am warped!

Lots to consider. Do you plan to focus mostly on "just" espresso, or will you be using the machine to regularly make white coffees as well? That model has the E61 brew group, which is a "must have item," I think. Single boiler, though, it appears? That may or may not matter to you.

The brand is very good, well reviewed.

As has been mentioned (and you already recognize), the grinder is more important than the espresso machine. Spend your money on a better grinder and then upgrade the espresso machine down the road if you like. It sounds crazy, but it is true: the grinder is 10, 20, 50, 100 times more important than the espresso machine.

Well, I hope I've chosen wisely--I selected a Mazzer Mini doserless (B model), after reading loads of reviews. I'm very pleased with it, though so far I've only used it to produce French Press and drip coffee. Can't wait to put it to the test with actual espresso grinding!

Regarding the Expobar Office Lever, it is a heat exchanger model that does allow simultaneous brewing and steaming. This is important to me since some members of my family prefer cappuccinos and lattes to straight espresso shots.

 

[Shrink]

Hi all;

Thanks for the warm welcome and great advice. I really do enjoy the vibe on this thread.

This much I already knew!!

Great caveat! I'm aware that I'm giving up convenience. Besides Nespresso, I've used a high-end Jura super automatic when I was working in Germany, which my German colleagues affectionately called the "Swiss Tamagotchi" due to the constant stream of demands for care and feeding that it would flash on its display (descale me! clean me! empty my grounds bin! change my water filter! etc.). Nevertheless, a more hands-on approach appeals to me. As a chemical engineer by background (I like to say I'm a recovering Chemical Engineer), the idea of manipulating various physical parameters (time, temperature, pressure, grind size, etc.) to optimize extraction appeals to me. Now you know I really am warped!

Well, I hope I've chosen wisely--I selected a Mazzer Mini doserless (B model), after reading loads of reviews. I'm very pleased with it, though so far I've only used it to produce French Press and drip coffee. Can't wait to put it to the test with actual espresso grinding!

Regarding the Expobar Office Lever, it is a heat exchanger model that does allow simultaneous brewing and steaming. This is important to me since some members of my family prefer cappuccinos and lattes to straight espresso shots.

From my understanding, the Mazzer Mini (or any Mazzer, for that matter) is pretty much the gold standard for electric grinders. As you know, I have the Expobar Office Lever, and the one thing to know about a heat exchanger machine is the need for a cooling flush prior to attaching the PF, especially if the machine has been on much beyond the heat up time...for which I allow 25 minutes, even though the instructions say 15-18 minutes. I give it a bit longer to make sure that the heating of all the parts, and the PF, are stabilized. Apparently what happens is that a heat exchanger machine can cause some of the water to heat beyond 200ºF...even up to 215-220º. So what you do is after filling and tamping your PF, you open the lever and let the water flow out the brew head for 5-15 seconds. If you bend over and look at the shower screen, you'll see "dancing water"...indicating overheated water. After 5-15 seconds the water stops "dancing", meaning it is at proper 200ºF temperature. Once you get used to it, you'll be able to tell when the "dancing" is done without looking at the shower screen.

As an engineer, even a recovering one, you should really enjoy the need for some exactitude in your measurements, timing, etc. (No stereotypy here, of course!)

Other than that quirk of the heat exchanger machine...which takes all of a few seconds...I love my Expobar!

 

[Kurwenal]

Well, I hope I've chosen wisely--I selected a Mazzer Mini doserless (B model), after reading loads of reviews. I'm very pleased with it, though so far I've only used it to produce French Press and drip coffee. Can't wait to put it to the test with actual espresso grinding!

Mazzer! You obviously are of keen intellect and fine upbringing. You will go far.

I bought my first Mazzer in 1993 and now own two Mini's, a standard Mini (with a doser and dispensing handle) and a Rocket Espresso Mini, which is a Type B modeled to match the Rocket Espresso line of espresso makers. I complain about my Mazzers from time to time, but that is just because I feel entitled. I love them.

I will write more when I have time, but for now I will just give you one tip. As you surely know, the Mazzers are stepless, meaning there are an infinite number of grind settings. Actually, in theory, there are no limits, but your ability to make fine adjustments limits the number of set points available. And, this gets to the most important skill you will learn: finding the correct set point. It can be intimidating, but don't let it be. The mechanism is great for micro-adjustments, and after only a few weeks you will be making fine adjustments each day for older vs. newer coffee, the amount of surface oil you can see on the beans, humidity, and many other factors. Or, you will just find a good compromise set point and never touch it again.

Your Mazzer will come with a sticker on the adjustment knob that will point to a set point (with a little arrow) and then give you instruction on which way to turn the dial for finer or more coarse coffee. Trust that initial set point. It is set on a custom basis for your grinder and only for your grinder. Every Mazzer has a different set point. You will see posts on Internet forums saying "oh grind your espresso at a 6" or "grind drip at an 8." Those numbers work only for those grinders. Your setting will be different. Really, trust that initial set point and do not remove that sticker. It will be a nearly perfect set point for espresso, and over time you will move the set point no more than plus or minus two notches (a notch being one of the raised detents or ribs along the dial), at the same weight. If I see a gusher, I move it 4 notches finer, or on a fast pour I move it 2 notches. After that, it is very fine tweaks (less than 1 notch...hard at first but you will pick it up....use the handle that you screw into the ring).

Regular coffee requires a more coarse grind than decaf, I would say on average 2-4 notches. As coffee gets older over time, you may move the set point up to 2 notches, over a period of a week or so (I don't have to do this sort of adjustment so much anymore since I roast most of my own coffee).

Anyway, I could go on and on but that's the most important point: trust the set point set by Mazzer and make fine adjustments away from that set point. Congrats on your purchase and feel free to post any questions.

 

[VideoFreek]

Shrink -- thanks for the great tips on using the Expobar. Can't wait to see the waters dance!

Kurwenal -- thanks also for your detailed points on the Mazzer. Everyone seems to agree that the factory stickers are pretty much bang on for espresso. My particular unit doesn't have a lot of headroom for coarse grinds, however, as the sticker is at the "7" mark. Nonetheless, opening up my burrs completely (to the top end stop) seems to generate an acceptable grind for French Press: the screen doesn' t blind and the plunging time is 10-15 seconds. I do realize that Mazzers are optimized for espresso and not so much for other types of grinds, but it seems to do okay.

 

[Kurwenal]

Kurwenal -- thanks also for your detailed points on the Mazzer. Everyone seems to agree that the factory stickers are pretty much bang on for espresso. My particular unit doesn't have a lot of headroom for coarse grinds, however, as the sticker is at the "7" mark. Nonetheless, opening up my burrs completely (to the top end stop) seems to generate an acceptable grind for French Press: the screen doesn' t blind and the plunging time is 10-15 seconds. I do realize that Mazzers are optimized for espresso and not so much for other types of grinds, but it seems to do okay.

I think you will be fine. One of mine is a little less than 7 and it works great for french press and the like. If it ends up bothering you, it is possible to reset the espresso set point by adjusting the burrs (which you will do anyway when you replace them).

+++++++

And, back 90 minutes later to add this, which I just ran across on another coffee forum (sorry, yes, I am not faithful to MR), and apropos of our discussion earlier tonight about weighing shots. Don't miss the video. (My advice is to freeze the video at 1:15, for at least several minutes.)

Here you go, Shrink, you can buy one here.

 

[Shrink]

Here you go, Shrink, you can buy one here.

Hey..it's on Sale! Only $10,000...such a bargain. I'll get two!

Thanks so much for the link...nice to know you're thinking of my bank account.

BTW: Absolutely great posts! So much terrific information! Thanks, Mate!

 

[DeSnousa]

Okay, so I received new beans. 1st espresso under extracted, took about ~35 seconds. 2nd espresso tasted a lot better and took about ~30 seconds, I made the grinder 2 clicks coarse to yield this. The thing was it took about 8 seconds for it to drip and it was not until the 18 second mark before it "streamed" out. Is this normal? It was not the best taste just better than the first Perhaps it still was on the under extraction side, perhaps but the tamp was not perfect and hence the slow drip?

In regards to using the double dose basket, does this mean I should yield twice the volume of a single dose I aimed for the standard ~30ml using the double perhaps that is what I did wrong? In which case the taste must of been over extracted Sorry I am a total noob at this, I gave up using my machine because I could never get it right. When I did I was in heaven This thread has made me want to get back into the art of making a perfect cup.

For the next week to two I would love to just drink espresso and leave lattes alone, I need to perfect the espresso extraction and taste the flavors so I know that I am doing it right before I hide the taste in milk

 

[Shrink]

Okay, so I received new beans. 1st espresso under extracted, took about ~35 seconds. 2nd espresso tasted a lot better and took about ~30 seconds, I made the grinder 2 clicks coarse to yield this. The thing was it took about 8 seconds for it to drip and it was not until the 18 second mark before it "streamed" out. Is this normal? It was not the best taste just better than the first Perhaps it still was on the under extraction side, perhaps but the tamp was not perfect and hence the slow drip?

In regards to using the double dose basket, does this mean I should yield twice the volume of a single dose I aimed for the standard ~30ml using the double perhaps that is what I did wrong? In which case the taste must of been over extracted Sorry I am a total noob at this, I gave up using my machine because I could never get it right. When I did I was in heaven This thread has made me want to get back into the art of making a perfect cup.

For the next week to two I would love to just drink espresso and leave lattes alone, I need to perfect the espresso extraction and taste the flavors so I know that I am doing it right before I hide the taste in milk

I'm sure Kurwenal can give you a better answer...but let me give a quick shot (get it?...shot!...I need help!)

The extraction of a single shot (1 - 1.25 ounces) and a double shot (2 - 2 ½ ounces) should take about the same time...~20 - 30 seconds. I generally end up on the lower end...a double shot taking 20 - 25 seconds. If it's flowing too slowly, slightly coarsening the grind reduces the time of extraction...exactly as you did.

I never use the single shot basket...but that's me. When I was teaching myself to make espresso (this thread didn't exist at that time!), I found using the double shot basket easier to control, and I also prefer the larger double shot as a drink.

A suggestion...since you are juggling several variables when making espresso, I find it helpful to hold as many variables constant as I can. My way of doing that is not to vary my tamp pressure, but to always keep that as a constant and then adjust grind until I'm satisfied with the extraction time. Nothing absolute about that...just my way of dealing with several variables by holding at least on constant.

Please...don't apologize for being a noob...we were all noobs at one time. The wonderful part of this thread is that we all love to talk coffee, and we enjoy helping others to work on technique, select equipment, find coffee, and the like. This thread, unlike so many others on MR, is devoted to being welcoming, friendly, and helpful...with a bit of good natured teasing. (Except toward me...they are very mean to me. Watch and you'll see!)

 

[Kurwenal]

You are on the right track. You will get this.

Keep everything else constant (especially tamping pressure), and click three more clicks towards coarse. Try it again.

On volume, a standard double produces 60 mL of coffee. How much coffee (by weight) are you using in your double basket?

How's your crema?

 

[Shrink]

You are on the right track. You will get this.

Keep everything else constant (especially tamping pressure), and click three more clicks towards coarse. Try it again.

On volume, a standard double produces 60 mL of coffee. How much coffee (by weight) are you using in your double basket?

How's your crema?

Don't you think that's a little personal!

 

[Kurwenal]

I'm sure kurwenal can give you a better answer...but let me give a quick shot (get it?...shot!...I need help!)

Hah, I know nothing, except how to occasionally make good coffee by trial and error.

I never use the single shot basket...but that's me. When I was teaching myself to make espresso (this thread didn't exist at that time!), I found using the double shot basket easier to control, and I also prefer the larger double shot as a drink.

Excellent advice.

A suggestion...since you are juggling several variables when making espresso, I find it helpful to hold as many variables constant as I can. My way of doing that is not to vary my tamp pressure, but to always keep that as a constant and then adjust grind until I'm satisfied with the extraction time. Nothing absolute about that...just my way of dealing with several variables by holding at least on constant.

Even more excellent advice.

Please...don't apologize for being a noob...we were all noobs at one time. The wonderful part of this thread is that we all love to talk coffee, and we enjoy helping others to work on technique, select equipment, find coffee, and the like. This thread, unlike so many others on MR, is devoted to being welcoming, friendly, and helpful...with a bit of good natured teasing.

The best advice!

My advice: listen to The Shrink.

Get a pen and paper, write down your recipe for each shot (weight, total time, grind setting, time to first liquid, at least), go make 10 double shots, and by #10 you will have it.

----------

Don't you think that's a little personal!

You saved me! I thought I was risking a mod warning by posting consecutive posts, but your intercession about crema saved me. Thank you.

Going to hit "submit" and see if my luck holds out again.

And, yes, that was a VERY personal question, but at least I didn't ask him how it tastes.


ETA: wow, MR combined my posts. This technology stuff is amazing.

 

[Shrink]

Hah, I know nothing, except how to occasionally make good coffee by trial and error.

Get a pen and paper, write down your recipe for each shot (weight, total time, grind setting, time to first liquid, at least), go make 10 double shots, and by #10 you will have it.

That's a great idea...the closely timed repetitions is something that I wish that I had done.

It's my impression that most baskets (I'm assuming that you are using a 58MM PF) are rated for dose. I'm using a Strada basket, and it's rated for 17GMs (but OK with 18GMs). Check your User Manual and see if they have any suggestions regarding dose weight for the single and double shot baskets. Generally, between 17 - 19GMs is usual for a double shot...but check it out anyway.

 

[S.B.G]

You saved me! I thought I was risking a mod warning by posting consecutive posts, but your intercession about crema saved me. Thank you.

Going to hit "submit" and see if my luck holds out again.

ETA: wow, MR combined my posts. This technology stuff is amazing.

You have little to worry about in this particular thread! It's like a forum within a forum where we feel like "it's just us" here.

There isn't anything wrong with consecutive posts since the forum, as you found out, auto-merges them if made within 10 minutes or so of each other. The other thing is that if there is considerable time between the posts, it's generally not a problem either. It used to be a problem where users would make many consecutive posts in order to pad their post count, but that's not an issue these days.

I'm so glad to have new folks joining this thread and and asking questions, learning and providing advice to others. This thread is such a friendly place and I enjoy it immensely.