Espresso Enthusiasts

[Shrink]

Good morning friends. I drank this one straight too, though it was more bitter than yesterday's cup.

Good looking cup of espresso! I think it's really cool that you are experimenting with drinking it straight. Whether you continue to drink it that way or not is not important...just that you are experimenting is neat!

I seem to have hit the right dose/grind combination for this roast batch...I've had two dandy double shots this morning. (No pictures...too late!)

I have noticed a real difference between the pump machine and my lever machine. Please forgive my lack of knowledge of the cupping nomenclature...the only way I can describe the difference is that the lever output is smoother than my old pump machine.

I did a bunch of reading about lever machines, and apparently there is a real difference in the area of varying pressure gradients during the extration...which is supposed to be a good thing confused. Like all good machines, the pre-infusion is done at very low pressure (~1.5 BARS), then the pressure rises to 9 BARS during the extraction until the very end of the extraction, when it drops to about 3 BARS. Why this is a good thing is well beyond my knowledge of the physics of extraction...all I know is the coffee is...er...smoother.

 

[Kurwenal]

Geez...and I thought I was nuts!

I think we are all a little nuts.....or seedy....

Good morning friends. I drank this one straight too, though it was more bitter than yesterday's cup.

Looks very nice. The most common causes of bitter pulls are brew temp too high or extraction too slow. The easiest fix is to adjust your grind a bit. Or, a little trick is, after you tamp and polish, just put a bit of sugar on top of the puck, right into the portafilter, before you extract. Sort of a "short cubano" but it can really help when starting out.

 

[S.B.G]

Looks very nice. The most common causes of bitter pulls are brew temp too high or extraction too slow. The easiest fix is to adjust your grind a bit. Or, a little trick is, after you tamp and polish, just put a bit of sugar on top of the puck, right into the portafilter, before you extract. Sort of a "short cubano" but it can really help when starting out.

I'll certainly have to adjust the grind again. What I changed from yesterday was that I changed it from 9 to 8 on the grinder scale and I used 18 grams of coffee instead of 17 grams like yesterday. I'll have to consider the sugar trick, and I'll have to see if I even have any at home.

 

[Shrink]

I think we are all a little nuts.....or seedy....

Oh, I know we're all more than a little nuts...it's just a matter of degree!

And...you will be punished for that pun!

 

[Kurwenal]

Like all good machines, the pre-infusion is done at very low pressure (~1.5 BARS), then the pressure rises to 9 BARS during the extraction until the very end of the extraction, when it drops to about 3 BARS. Why this is a good thing is well beyond my knowledge of the physics of extraction...all I know is the coffee is...er...smoother.

Not sure if this is what you are seeing, but it may your answer:

The liquid flowing through the coffee puck would be moving slower and therefore be carrying more solvents with it. . . . With a ramp down the extraction is increasing at a faster rate per gram of espresso, compared to a straight 9 bars shot.

Here.

 

[Shrink]

Not sure if this is what you are seeing, but it may your answer:



Here.

Thanks for the link...that's the very article I (sort of) read that led to my observation about variable pressure gradient during extraction!

I will admit, I didn't memorize every word, I get bored easily (read: attention span of a flea!). Also, some of the physics was beginning to melt my brain...

 

[Kurwenal]

What I changed from yesterday was that I changed it from 9 to 8 on the grinder scale and I used 18 grams of coffee instead of 17 grams like yesterday.

I'm not sure what 9 to 8 means on your grinder, but think of it this way: by increasing from 17 to 18 grams, as far as the brew head is concerned, you kept 17 grams but made the grind finer.....the pump has to work harder to push the water through the puck (actually, it doesn't, but you get the point). Compare the pull times of the two shots and it will give you the answer.

I always suggest changing only one variable at a time....easier that way. So, stick with 18g and just play with the grind. Keep everything else the same, write down at least the grinder setting and extraction time for each shot and the answer will become apparent.

Thanks for the link...that's the very article I (sort of) read that led to my observation about variable pressure gradient during extraction!

I will admit, I didn't memorize every word, I get bored easily (read: attention span of a flea!). Also, some of the physics was beginning to melt my brain...

I admit I don't follow it 100% either....but that is the article I always see linked to explain the lower pressure on the end of lever pulls. I basically read it as: you kick the thing into action with 9 bars, then the lower pressure towards the end actually pulls more, not less, of the oils and such into the coffee.

 

[Shrink]

I admit I don't follow it 100% either....but that is the article I always see linked to explain the lower pressure on the end of lever pulls. I basically read it as: you kick the thing into action with 9 bars, then the lower pressure towards the end actually pulls more, not less, of the oils and such into the coffee.

The nice part of the L1 is that the spring does the pressure gradient thing for me. I couldn't use a direct lever machine to save my life. The learning curve to get the proper muscle memory for any consistency takes years. In fact, the guy to whom I sold my Expobar Office Lever machine had been using a Pavoni direct lever machine for a year or more and just couldn't get any consistency in his shots...so decided to go for my pump machine.

 

[S.B.G]

I'm not sure what 9 to 8 means on your grinder, but think of it this way: by increasing from 17 to 18 grams, as far as the brew head is concerned, you kept 17 grams but made the grind finer.....the pump has to work harder to push the water through the puck (actually, it doesn't, but you get the point). Compare the pull times of the two shots and it will give you the answer.

I always suggest changing only one variable at a time....easier that way. So, stick with 18g and just play with the grind. Keep everything else the same, write down at least the grinder setting and extraction time for each shot and the answer will become apparent.

After I tasted it I knew I made a mistake by changing two things instead of one. The extraction time was a bit longer than yesterday which I noticed. Thanks for the advice and I will follow it on the next cup.

 

[mobilehaathi]

I thought I should come back and post a few roasting tips. I will shy away from the stuff you will read on SM.

Excellent, excellent! Thank you for the info! I'm planning to keep a log, etc, but this is precisely what I wanted to know: what information should I log? Thanks for clearing that up.

As for the chaff, apparently in this kind of roasting setup the it blows out quite easily. SM's recommends a damp towel in a bowl to catch it all, although I'll surely have some cleaning to do...

Most of all, have fun!

No problems there! I should pick up some mason jars to store the freshly roasted beans...(and yes, I won't screw them down until they degas...)

it was more bitter than yesterday's cup.

Or, a little trick is, after you tamp and polish, just put a bit of sugar on top of the puck, right into the portafilter, before you extract. Sort of a "short cubano" but it can really help when starting out.

Something else that can mask the bitterness is a tiny bit of salt. (Although I don't know about putting it directly into the portafilter) Naturally you don't want to put too much, but it can mask bitter and enhance certain flavors (it might mask others, I haven't played with it very carefully).

I may have just suggested heresy though.

 

[Kurwenal]

I may have just suggested heresy though.

Hey, thanks for the video you PM'd me of you and a friend making coffee. I thought I'd let everyone appreciate your technique.

 

[Shrink]

Hey, thanks for the video you PM'd me of you and a friend making coffee. I thought I'd let everyone appreciate your technique.

Thanks for the video!

Hysterical!

Clearly, Americans are not the only ones with WAAAAYYYY too much time on their hands!

 

[Kurwenal]

Thanks for the video!

Hysterical!

I laughed out loud. I admit it.

Best video since this one, which one of us posted a while back.

(Can you tell I'm bored waiting out the Daytona 500 rain delay?)

 

[mobilehaathi]

Hey, thanks for the video you PM'd me of you and a friend making coffee. I thought I'd let everyone appreciate your technique.

Hey, I explicitly told you to keep that between you and me!

Admittedly, that was one of my better ideas, along with the cold brew coming out of the refrigerator water dispenser.

 

[turtle777]

The context is "good coffee at work." [...]

For a couple of years, my savior has been my beloved aeropress (which replaced my bring-from-home thermos). [...]

But, here's the issue: espresso it aint. S

I've been there. I tried the aeropress, and also the MyPressi Twist. http://mypressi.com

Problem is: it's way too much work, and the result is just not that stunning.
A simple Bodum coffee press makes all the coffee I need. But my espresso / latte craving is not satisfied.

I might look into the Nespresso option as well.

-t

 

[Kurwenal]

and also the MyPressi Twist. http://mypressi.com Problem is: it's way too much work, and the result is just not that stunning.

Thanks for that. The Twist was #1 on my list as of last week, but, agreed, it seems like a hassle, and not just because of the gas cartridges.

A simple Bodum coffee press makes all the coffee I need. But my espresso / latte craving is not satisfied.

I might look into the Nespresso option as well.

-t

That is exactly my issue as well. I'm very happy with my hand grinder + aeropress, but it cannot make espresso.

For the Nespresso, seems like there are two essential buying decisions: do you want milk, and do you want just espresso or drip too. On the first question, about half of the machines include some sort of milk option, usually with an external container, which would be great for convenience but I'm not sure how much hassle it is to clean the milk parts of the machine. Seems like you would at least have to flush the tube that goes from the milk container into the machine, and that would (at least) detract from the low noise/easy cleanup goals.

On the second decision, just last week Nespresso announced a new line, called VertuoLine, which (apparently) does both espresso and drip and is aimed at the Keurig, etc.

I haven't been able to find any third-party reviews of the new line, but I'm not sure I care since I'm interested only in espresso, not drip. For drip I will stick to the hand grinder + aeropress. And, since white coffee isn't really a draw for me, I think I'm going to pull the trigger on one of the "old style" Nespressos, one that does just espresso pods but not milk.

But I'm still reading and considering. Appreciate any advice from anyone.....

++++++

Oh! There are some after-market pods you can fill yourself with your own coffee...

 

[mobilehaathi]

Oh! There are some after-market pods you can fill yourself with your own coffee...

Uh oh, things just got interesting!

 

[Shrink]

Oh! There are some after-market pods you can fill yourself with your own coffee...

Since I know nothing about the working of the Nespresso, I can offer no advice...but a question:

Is the coffee tamped in the pod, or is it tamped when dispensed from the pod after it is placed in the machine?

 

[mobilehaathi]

Since I know nothing about the working of the Nespresso, I can offer no advice...but a question:

Is the coffee tamped in the pod, or is it tamped when dispensed from the pod after it is placed in the machine?

Actually, it isn't tamped at all. The pods are loosely filled at the factory, and you place them directly into the machine. The machine pierces the pod at top and bottom and injects hot water; espresso comes out.

Actually, now that I think back on the machine, I'm not certain it reaches 'proper' pressure...

 

[Shrink]

Actually, it isn't tamped at all. The pods are loosely filled at the factory, and you place them directly into the machine. The machine pierces the pod at top and bottom and injects hot water; espresso comes out.

Actually, now that I think back on the machine, I'm not certain it reaches 'proper' pressure...

As an accessory with some machines (all the machines I have owned, with the exception of the L1), a "pressure basket" is included. It replaces the regular filter basket and has only one pin hole in the bottom. It does not require tamping the grinds...the water pressure is increased because of the absence of multiple holes in the bottom. It is usually included with a machine for those who do not wish to bother with, or acquire the skill to, tamp.

It sounds like a similar principle is involved with the Nespresso pod.

If the Nespresso doesn't reach the minimum proper pressure of 9 Bars, perhaps the pod system kind of makes up for the lack of pressure. And anyway...even if it doesn't meet the requirement of "real" espresso...if the coffee is good, a rose by any other name...

 

[Kurwenal]

The current-line of Nespresso espresso-only machines claim to be able to produce 19 bars, but details on the innards are hard to come by. I suspect that this pressure is what sets the Nespresso apart from the other single-serve options, and is responsible for its ability to produce something that at least approaches being called "espresso."

I cannot find any information on the new line in this regard. Presumably it would use the same or an even better pump, but who knows. I did find one review of the new line on the web that measured the just-brewed coffee at only 160F, so I do not hold out any hope that it can replace a decent brew.

And, Nespresso's marketing materials for the new line claim their new centrifugal technology, which spins the capsule as the coffee brews, produces "crema." Some of the early reviews are gaga over this. But, gotta say, it looks like just crappy, over-areated foam to me. I'm willing to bet a proper test of the sugar content will verify that.

If that's crema, I'm Michael Jordan.

So, looking more and more like I will give the old-style espresso-only model a try.

 

[mobilehaathi]

As an accessory with some machines (all the machines I have owned, with the exception of the L1), a "pressure basket" is included. It replaces the regular filter basket and has only one pin hole in the bottom. It does not require tamping the grinds...the water pressure is increased because of the absence of multiple holes in the bottom. It is usually included with a machine for those who do not wish to bother with, or acquire the skill to, tamp.

It sounds like a similar principle is involved with the Nespresso pod.

If the Nespresso doesn't reach the minimum proper pressure of 9 Bars, perhaps the pod system kind of makes up for the lack of pressure. And anyway...even if it doesn't meet the requirement of "real" espresso...if the coffee is good, a rose by any other name...

Yep, I've seen those before, and I suspect some pressure builds up in those little guys reasonably well.

Kurwenal, I'd suggest you try it out under somewhat normal conditions to ensure that you truly find it acceptable. You're pulling and drinking espresso at an extremely high level at home. Going to Nespresso is the equivalent of throwing yourself off the summit of El Capitan.

Then again, if you can fill pods with your own coffee, that might change things quite a lot.

 

[Kurwenal]

YGoing to Nespresso is the equivalent of throwing yourself off the summit of El Capitan.

True that. Here, ultimately, is the decision I am trying to make: it is better to have no espresso, or just barely passable espresso? And, over time, is Nespresso even barely passable?

I made up a scale last night, 1-100, with some approximate measurements:

90: my average ristretto pull at home these days
80: my average "brew" at home these days, mostly Chemex and Cona-D vac pot
65-70: my average "brew" at work, hand grinder + aeropress
50: the line of "weary, stale, flat and unprofitable," below which I will not go
25: Peet's
10: SB

If I can hit 50 with the Nespresso, it is worth doing. If not, it is not, but then I am stuck with the reality that there is no espresso option for me at work. Perhaps I just have to accept that, but that is proving to be a problem for me. "When the blood burns, how prodigal the soul."

There's the rub....I think I won't know until I have had it for 100 days whether the Nespresso will hit that line.

I'm surprised someone hasn't developed a better option, but, I guess this just proves the challenge of good espresso. Mrs. Kurwenal helpfully suggested this morning that I should switch to tea.

 

[mobilehaathi]

Mrs. Kurwenal helpfully suggested this morning that I should switch to tea.

Always with the wry humor, very nice.

 

[Shrink]

True that. Here, ultimately, is the decision I am trying to make: it is better to have no espresso, or just barely passable espresso? And, over time, is Nespresso even barely passable?

I made up a scale last night, 1-100, with some approximate measurements:

90: my average ristretto pull at home these days
80: my average "brew" at home these days, mostly Chemex and Cona-D vac pot
65-70: my average "brew" at work, hand grinder + aeropress
50: the line of "weary, stale, flat and unprofitable," below which I will not go
25: Peet's
10: SB

If I can hit 50 with the Nespresso, it is worth doing. If not, it is not, but then I am stuck with the reality that there is no espresso option for me at work. Perhaps I just have to accept that, but that is proving to be a problem for me. "When the blood burns, how prodigal the soul."

There's the rub....I think I won't know until I have had it for 100 days whether the Nespresso will hit that line.

I'm surprised someone hasn't developed a better option, but, I guess this just proves the challenge of good espresso. Mrs. Kurwenal helpfully suggested this morning that I should switch to tea.

No offense...but it sounds like Mrs. Kurwenal is the sane one in the family...and possessor of a great sense of humor!

You do have a Catch 22...only buy it if it makes acceptable (mean rating of 50%) coffee, but the only way to know is buy it. I know that in Boston there is at least one Nespresso store with a coffee bar. Perhaps there is one near you and you can go in at least a few times to try the coffee.

OR

Come to Boston, stay for a week or so, and try the coffee in the store here. I know that we're talking a bit of expense...but anything for the right coffee machine.



Edit: I just pulled an afternoon double shot. Holding aside the ratings and whether the shot is great or not...espresso is such a wonderful drink, for me truly one of the wonderful, hedonic indulgences of my day.

And the pleasure that I derive from just operating my machine borders on the unseemly!