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It would be useless only if Apple's app review process failed to catch even a single fake app and somehow let everything through
Exactly. 👍🏻
This is what about-ism.
I intended it to directly mirror But-what-about-Spotify‘s-price „argument“ for illustration (that your braught up not once, not twice, but thrice).
I find it hard to make the argument that consumers would be better off if there were no app review at all.
I‘m not making that argument.
Apple NEVER said they would catch everything. Ever.
And the EU NEVER. said that every price for every product or service would decrease with regulation.

Apple‘s review process is useful by weeding out some harmful apps.
And the DMA can be useful in decreasing consumer prices for apps/digital services or preventing higher increases.
 
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Exactly. 👍🏻

I intended it to directly mirror But-what-about-Spotify‘s-price „argument“ for illustration (that your braught up not once, not twice, but thrice).

I‘m not making that argument.

And the EU NEVER. said that every price for every product or service would decrease with regulation.
I repeated the Spotify price increase because you seem to ignore it. Least you've acknowledged you've read it. Finally.

And the EU did justify part of the reason for this change was to benefit users with lower prices.
 
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I seriously wonder why some posters come here to knock Apple all day, every day.
I seriously wonder about the fanboyism and total deference given to Apple and their policies here.

It’s as some posters aren‘t only happy to have less choice and pay more - they want to impose that on

Anyone with such strong opinions about "Evil Apple" and their Walled Garden should reflect on whether Apple products are for them
It‘s not like there are many alternatives, are there? There’s but one (relevant) alternative operating system for mobile phones - which doesn’t integrate as well with my desktop computer. Or my views on consumer privacy.

That’s the very reason why these two operating systems should be regulated to prevent their developers from monopolising software installation on them and abusing their power.ä

One can like Apple, the iPhone and iOS - and at the same time disagree with Apple’s anticompetitive developer terms and uncompetitive pricing.
 
I repeated the Spotify price increase because you seem to ignore it. Least you've acknowledged you've read it. Finally.
How did I ignore it, when I replied every time to it? 🤣🤣🤣

And the EU did justify part of the reason for this change was to benefit users with lower prices.
Yes.

And one instance of increased prices isn’t proof to the contrary or that the DMA wouldn’t leas to that - or at least prevent further cost/price increases compared to a non-regulated market.

Particularly how some users are so keen to point out that Spotify does not even sell through Apple‘s core platform service anymore.
 
For a few, there is no risk at all allowing non-signed, sideloaded apps. You've explained the risks which everyone now faces. All because the EU forced Apple to unwind some levels of protection...
Apple won‘t allow running unsigned apps any more than they’ve allowed it for more than a decade.
Even after implementing measures according to the DMA.

You misrepresenting reality here.
thing is Apple dont have to leave... there is still one option that satisfies the problem and puts it somewhere else...

Let iOS device users choose to run Android.
That in no way changes the fact that iOS will be a platform covered by the DMA, provided enough people choose it.
Many here tell us "not to worry, it wont affect you", "dont use the alt stores" (ignoring everyone is running code that has been changed to allow the EU requests already no matter where you live).
No security-relevant code needs to be changed - let alone run on devices.
The security model remains unchanged:
  • only signed apps are allowed to run on iOS
  • every app distributed to consumers will be reviewed by Apple
  • unreviewed enterprise apps are allowed just like they‘ve been for years
Detractors of the DMA are still going to grasp at straws in pointing out new warning message or confirmation dialogue implemented somewhere (of which there are hundreds if not thousands everywhere in iOS and its settings) that bear no security-related relevance (and won‘t even „run“ for non-EU users).
 
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Come on EU, hunt Apple down!!! Core technology fee is DOA!!

A 1 billion fine sounds like a good starting point to me. Apple needs to understand that highway robbery is no longer a business model.
 
What will the EU do with the money? I hope they invest in open source alternatives to the companies that are abusing the market.

If you want something done right, do it yourself.
 
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Oh, so citizens in European member states vote for the folks in the European Commission, the most powerful body in the EU? No? Nice “democracy”

In fairness, not a single member of the US executive other than the President is elected directly by the people either. Not a single official in any department is elected directly either. They are elected by the people's representatives in the Parliament, which is exactly what happens in the EU. The leaders of the state nominate a president for the Commission, who must be confirmed by the European Parliament. The President, in turn, nominates other Commissioners and the entire Commission, again, must be confirmed by the EP. Is it perfect? No of course not, it's a compromise between giving people their democratic say and the member states protecting their influence, but that doesn't make it entirely undemocratic.

Many pro-EU folks would actually want a directly elected executive, or at least a system like in the UK and many other continental European states where a front runner leads the party and will from the government after the election if their party wins. But, alas, that would give the EU more legitimacy and mandate to act as a European federal executive, which many states don't want. So really it's a chicken and egg problem.
 
View attachment 2389581Come on EU, hunt Apple down!!! Core technology fee is DOA!!

A 1 billion fine sounds like a good starting point to me. Apple needs to understand that highway robbery is no longer a business model.
When the EU fines Apple, Tim Cook checks in his pockets.
If you don't pay a $2 bus tickets, you are fined something like $50, not 20 cents. Not sure why corporations only pay a fraction of what they stole IF they get busted.
 
You missed my point about federal vs confederation political systems. As a federal system, the US can react quite quickly if they want since the do not need state approval, vs a confederation where each state has a say in actions and can hold them up if they want to.

Personally, while the fine potentials sound large, it would be interesting to see how those fines will be enforced; if only for the political ramifications. I suspect the EU would be as upset about the US fining an EU company 100 billion as vice versa.

And while Apple would not leave the EU, some companies, do to the GDPR, block website access from the EU and or have all those annoying popups to comply.; which gets to my point about collateral damage.
Well to be fair a company leaving because of GDPR is a good thing as they can’t bother to respect user privacy

But irrespective of the U.S. federal system, they are extremely slow in making decisions, perhaps because you end in in deadlocks while eu have wide coalitions with road support.
No. Apple announced the CTF months in advance, and the EU stayed silent. That isn’t good governance, or being a good partner to companies trying to do business in their market. That’s cheap and pathetic.
Apple announced it months in advance…. Before it was even a law.
There is a competitor already. It's call Android.

And yet people still buy large numbers of Apple devices... funny that, maybe the ecosystem and focus on protection is worth paying more to them?
Android isn’t a competitor to iOS AppStore.
Considering the play store and AppStore aren’t cross compatible or available.

And you don’t find it strange that on android if I want to use another storefront service I just pick another application option, but with iOS I have to exchange my hardware.
And the number of iPhones is just about the same number of Samsung phones in EU….
IMG_5379.jpeg


Bricked iPhone from a text:
Can a bricked iPhone be fixed?


How to revive your bricked iPhone or iPad


Reviving a bricked iPhone or iPad. Connect the bricked iPhone or iPad to your computer using a compatible cable. Launch Finder on your Mac (with macOS Catalina or later). Alternatively, you could use iTunes on your Windows PC or Mac with macOS Mojave or earlier.3 June 2024

The Android phone I saw and tried to help a client with could not be fixed by connecting to a computer.
Even the phone shop could do nothing be sell her a new phone.
Big difference...

and yet after all the pretty pictures of process, all we care about is the EU is fining Apple based on Worldwide sales not EU sales and seem to be acting protect a few dodgy, whiny EU companies who are already on the app store and have customers because the can install a free app and sign up outside with Apple making no money for all the tools and environment they give away for free to them.
Yes… because it’s the global revenue is a ceiling to prevent to high fines. And now democracy doesn’t matter anymore because it doesn’t show your false claims.

And what do you think the purpose of fines are but to punish and discourage repeat offenses. This means the fine must be painfull enough to warrant no continued abuse.
And did you forget all the “whiny” developers who aren’t from Europe? Seems Apple is getting in their way unjustifiably.
The customer isnt saving money or being better served/protected by scammers because of the changes.

It is purely about money.
If other developers and companies can make more money instead of giving it to Apple, then this will allow them to provide more value to the customers.

And you don’t know if alternative stores will do a better job than Apple. And it’s indeed about the money that Apple tries to extract from their customer base while doing as little for them as possible
 
Those were ex-post regulations. These are ex ante regulations. The chances of these getting resolved quickly are high and mostly in favor of the government as the ex-ante regulations specify the desired outcomes and the companies have to self-certify that they are compliant in delivering those outcomes.

And that's the rub. Apple thinks the are compliant, the EU seems to disagree. Now they need to sit down and determine what exactly is compliant.

DMA will tell Apple to sell parts of its business. Imagine MS, epic, or some other company buying it.

Imagine Apple simply deciding to comply by closing the EU App Store. Then there is no unfair competition with alternative stores. I'm not saying the would do that, but it is an option beyond a forced sale.

Why will there be a problem?

Why would Apple want to give anyone unfettered access to its user base? Once Apple sells it, the buyer now has all the customer data; unless the EU decides it's privacy protections prohibit the transfer of that data, in which case teh buyer gets a a bunch of apps but no way of knowing who d/l'd what, who to bill, etc.

It's not, IMHO, as simple as the EU saying "Sell the App Store," despite the DMA's rules.

As for the buyer, they are all of a sudden deciding to become a gatekeeper, with all the ramifications that go along with that. Does Epic want to risk being forced to open the Fortnight store? Even if tehy don't think the DMA will require that, is it worth the risk?

If Apple does not allow the Appstore access to its APIs, then there will be no apps and hence there will be no buyers for iPhones. If the charge the company for API access, then the true market value of the APIs will be known to all. Apple has to be careful it will not price its APIs so that its HW business will tank.

Apple can allow developers on alternative stores access to APIs regardless of who owns the App Store or even if it still exists in the EU.

There is also the whole question of what is the actual return on the App Store? Can a new buyer afford to allow free apps or will they start to charge a base fee, similar to Apple's developer fee, which is not part of the App Store.

Consider this. A buyer of the APP Store has no reason to take actions that cost money but whose sole effect is to increase the popularity of the iPhone. Free apps cost money, and the more popular they are the more they cost. Nixing them or charging developers to host them bumps profits. Subscription apps that bypass the App Store payment process make no money either, so the way they pay to be on the App Store needs to change. Limited signing and review for 99 Euros? Sorry but that's now a la carte.

Apple can afford to run the App Store at whatever margin they want because it supports iPhone sales; a buyer has different interests. ironically, nothing in the DMA would prevent Apple from divesting the current App Store and then starting over as just one more competitor in the marketplace.

I see no reason to believe the EU will blink first. Apple has already blinked first in a couple of cases (The Dutch ACM case, The Spotify case, The reinstatement of EPICs account, etc.,)

The EU will explain clearly to Apple how it is failing to comply. If Apple does not correct its behavior, then the fines will start. It is all in Apple's hand whether it wants fines or whether it wants to comply.

It's not about blinking but getting clarity about what must be done to comply and not play whack a mole. Once the EU says do this, they shouldn't come back and say, "Oh, we really meant this other thing because we do not like how our first one turned out..."

Yes, there is some collateral damage here too. Apple's revenue from Appstore might shrink but there can be a positive outcome for Apple.

The collateral damage I am concerned about is to small developers, who ultimately may see more up front expenses, lower revenues due to piracy, a fragmented marketed that requires them to do things such as taxes that Apple currently does, etc.

As for the average consumer, unless prices drop, what tangible benefits do they get? A fragmented marketplace and confusion over app installation?
Because it becomes less walled garden type, some of the premium Android phone buyers might opt for iPhones and hence their sales may increase.

I doubt the walled garden is the impediment to switching, especially since even in Android you have Google's App Store as the major source of apps; most users don't seem to care about things like side loading, etc.

Well to be fair a company leaving because of GDPR is a good thing as they can’t bother to respect user privacy

True, but some companies may have decided the risks of being found non-compliant, even if they really want to be, are not worth it. By blocking EU access they avoid the GDPR and the need to comply.

But irrespective of the U.S. federal system, they are extremely slow in making decisions, perhaps because you end in in deadlocks while eu have wide coalitions with road support.

I would argue the EU decision making process is equally as slow, especially since 1 member can block progress or veto legislation, depending on the issue. Hungary has shown it can wield power beyond its political weight.

In addition, the EU can only legislate on things called out by treaty, not anything they might want to rule on.

A federal system, with majority rule, can act quickly when needed and an executive can take unilateral action if they deem it necessary; and of course, just as with the EU, there are plenty of ways to slow things down or stop them.

Neither system is inherently better or worse, just different. All have pluses and minuses.

Interestingly, the US started with a confederation similar to the EU's but replaced it with the federal system.
 
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It's not about blinking but getting clarity about what must be done to comply and not play whack a mole. Once the EU says do this, they shouldn't come back and say, "Oh, we really meant this other thing because we do not like how our first one turned out..."

Hand on heart, if the DMA was an overly specific document that proscribed business practices in great detail people here would object on the basis that the Government interferes too much in what they they think are basically business decisions.

Whereas, now that the DMA sets out broad principles and outcomes people here object that the Government is interfering too much in what they think are basically business decisions.

Which is fair, I think we can all take different views on whether or not this is an area that should be regulated, but I doubt clarity (or in their view lack of) is really the driving force here. I'm sure there are technical points that will be hard to resolve, just as there are with the GDPR, but I think most businesses with the legal budget of Apple will find it easy enough to come up with a compliant solution, or alternatively with a risk-based solution that tests the limits of the DMA. There's always ambiguity in legislation, but let's not make it more than it is.

True, but some companies may have decided the risks of being found non-compliant, even if they really want to be, are not worth it. By blocking EU access they avoid the GDPR and the need to comply.

Sure, there will always be that, but from a public policy perspective you'll have to weigh whether the benefits of having robust data protection laws in place, for example, justify not having every company present.

I would argue the EU decision making process is equally as slow, especially since 1 member can block progress or veto legislation, depending on the issue. Hungary has shown it can wield power beyond its political weight.

In addition, the EU can only legislate on things called out by treaty, not anything they might want to rule on.

A federal system, with majority rule, can act quickly when needed and an executive can take unilateral action if they deem it necessary; and of course, just as with the EU, there are plenty of ways to slow things down or stop them.

Neither system is inherently better or worse, just different. All have pluses and minuses.

Interestingly, the US started with a confederation similar to the EU's but replaced it with the federal system.

While it's true that the EU can only legislate where it has the competence to do so by the Treaty, the same is arguably true for the US federal government which powers are also limited by the Constitution. Both have struggled over time to reconcile how to address broader issues that flow from issues they are responsible for. I'm pretty certain that a quick reading of the Commerce Clause would give us a very incomplete picture of what the federal government can do and how exactly this fits with the enumerated powers.
 
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Hand on heart, if the DMA was an overly specific document that proscribed business practices in great detail people here would object on the basis that the Government interferes too much in what they they think are basically business decisions.

Whereas, now that the DMA sets out broad principles and outcomes people here object that the Government is interfering too much in what they think are basically business decisions.

Of course. This is an internet discussion group; you could point out the sky is not blue and someone would disagree...

Which is fair, I think we can all take different views on whether or not this is an area that should be regulated, but I doubt clarity (or in their view lack of) is really the driving force here. I'm sure there are technical points that will be hard to resolve, just as there are with the GDPR, but I think most businesses with the legal budget of Apple will find it easy enough to come up with a compliant solution, or alternatively with a risk-based solution that tests the limits of the DMA. There's always ambiguity in legislation, but let's not make it more than it is.

Fair enough. I suspect the motivation is to go right up to the line since that would offer the greatest financial benefit; which is why we see the back and forth. Frankly, as long as a company can rectify a concern without being fined then that approach makes the most sense.

Sure, there will always be that, but from a public policy perspective you'll have to weigh whether the benefits of having robust data protection laws in place, for example, justify not having every company present.

That's always the tradeoff - is the gain worth the potential loss.

While it's true that the EU can only legislate where it has the competence to do so by the Treaty, the same is arguably true for the US federal government which powers are also limited by the Constitution. Both have struggled over time to reconcile how to address broader issues that flow from issues they are responsible for.

That's actually a feature, not a bug since checks and balances should prevent crazy swings.That's actually a feature, not a bug since checks and balances should prevent crazy swings. It did during the Trump era and I am hopeful it will in the EU despite the apparent swing to the right at the EU level.

I'm pretty certain that a quick reading of the Commerce Clause would give us a very incomplete picture of what the federal government can do and how exactly this fits with the enumerated powers.

I find the Commerce Clause fascinating as it opens a wide door for Federal action, although SCOTUS seems to go back and forth on just how broad it is.
 
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So… let a competitor take a crack at it.

[…]
Absolutely. Let this competitor develop their own phone, hardware and operating system. Build an ecosystem. Attract customers. And let the competitor be in the EU. I’ll wait and watch a movie while this happens.

Ohhhh wait. I got it wrong. You mean you want the eu to take the App Store from apple and let someone else manage it, charge the fees and get the revenue. And they could do a better job than apple. I’ll grab my popcorn while this transaction takes place.
 
In fairness, not a single member of the US executive other than the President is elected directly by the people either. Not a single official in any department is elected directly either. They are elected by the people's representatives in the Parliament, which is exactly what happens in the EU. The leaders of the state nominate a president for the Commission, who must be confirmed by the European Parliament. The President, in turn, nominates other Commissioners and the entire Commission, again, must be confirmed by the EP. Is it perfect? No of course not, it's a compromise between giving people their democratic say and the member states protecting their influence, but that doesn't make it entirely undemocratic.

Many pro-EU folks would actually want a directly elected executive, or at least a system like in the UK and many other continental European states where a front runner leads the party and will from the government after the election if their party wins. But, alas, that would give the EU more legitimacy and mandate to act as a European federal executive, which many states don't want. So really it's a chicken and egg problem.
Other than the President… nice caveat. You mean the most powerful guy in the US executive branch, who tells all subordinates what policies to execute. That guy.
 
Absolutely. Let this competitor develop their own App Storefront service phone, hardware and operating system. Build an ecosystem. Attract customers. And let the competitor be in the EU. I’ll wait and watch a movie while this happens.

Ohhhh wait. I got it wrong. You mean you want the eu to take the App Store from apple and let someone else manage it, charge the fees and get the revenue. And they could do a better job than apple. I’ll grab my popcorn while this transaction takes place.
Sigh you’re well aware I haven’t at a single point stated the AppStore should be taken away nor have EU alluded it.
And that's the rub. Apple thinks the are compliant, the EU seems to disagree. Now they need to sit down and determine what exactly is compliant.

Imagine Apple simply deciding to comply by closing the EU App Store. Then there is no unfair competition with alternative stores. I'm not saying the would do that, but it is an option beyond a forced sale.
Well that would also be a solution, the issue seems that Apple wants EU to tell them what to do instead of what not to do.
Why would Apple want to give anyone unfettered access to its user base? Once Apple sells it, the buyer now has all the customer data; unless the EU decides it's privacy protections prohibit the transfer of that data, in which case teh buyer gets a a bunch of apps but no way of knowing who d/l'd what, who to bill, etc.


It's not, IMHO, as simple as the EU saying "Sell the App Store," despite the DMA's rules.

As for the buyer, they are all of a sudden deciding to become a gatekeeper, with all the ramifications that go along with that. Does Epic want to risk being forced to open the Fortnight store? Even if tehy don't think the DMA will require that, is it worth the risk?
Indeed it would be very protected user data according to the GDPR rules. But Apple won’t ever be told to sell the AppStore, but to divest. Essentially the AppStore department would become its own entity. And epic would likely love to have it as they would just make their epic store the default one as they are above and beyond in compliance.
Apple can allow developers on alternative stores access to APIs regardless of who owns the App Store or even if it still exists in the EU.

There is also the whole question of what is the actual return on the App Store? Can a new buyer afford to allow free apps or will they start to charge a base fee, similar to Apple's developer fee, which is not part of the App Store.

Consider this. A buyer of the APP Store has no reason to take actions that cost money but whose sole effect is to increase the popularity of the iPhone. Free apps cost money, and the more popular they are the more they cost. Nixing them or charging developers to host them bumps profits. Subscription apps that bypass the App Store payment process make no money either, so the way they pay to be on the App Store needs to change. Limited signing and review for 99 Euros? Sorry but that's now a la carte.

Apple can afford to run the App Store at whatever margin they want because it supports iPhone sales; a buyer has different interests. ironically, nothing in the DMA would prevent Apple from divesting the current App Store and then starting over as just one more competitor in the marketplace.
Well I would just take a look at how the steam store works as a very good example of how it can be done.
It's not about blinking but getting clarity about what must be done to comply and not play whack a mole. Once the EU says do this, they shouldn't come back and say, "Oh, we really meant this other thing because we do not like how our first one turned out..."
… well that’s the thing. That will not happen, they tell you what you can’t do and evaluate your solutions. They aren’t in the business to tell you how to solve problems
I would argue the EU decision making process is equally as slow, especially since 1 member can block progress or veto legislation, depending on the issue. Hungary has shown it can wield power beyond its political weight.

In addition, the EU can only legislate on things called out by treaty, not anything they might want to rule on.

A federal system, with majority rule, can act quickly when needed and an executive can take unilateral action if they deem it necessary; and of course, just as with the EU, there are plenty of ways to slow things down or stop them.

Neither system is inherently better or worse, just different. All have pluses and minuses.

Interestingly, the US started with a confederation similar to the EU's but replaced it with the federal system.
Well actually you can just look at the amount of treaty reforms and sweeping legislation EU have managed to pass without ending up in deadlock. There very few things you actually need unanimous consent to pass, and it’s typically something that have a strong impact on countries sovereignty. The € was introduced in 1999~ and the charter for human rights didn’t become legally enforced untill 2009 Lisbon Treaty reforms.

To pass laws/regulations etc we engage in trilateral negotiations between the council (27 MEP/head of states), parliament (420 seats across at least 9 groups)

It’s purposely built for encouraging compromise between parties and countries.
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Geez there's some lazy "click the hate button" people on here today who get all upset yet offer not word of reason why they arent happy.

Cheer up. Life's short.
This is just a pass the time forum where banter happens and no one convinces anyone of anything or arrives at a solution.
 
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Absolutely. Let this competitor develop their own phone, hardware and operating system. Build an ecosystem. Attract customers. And let the competitor be in the EU. I’ll wait and watch a movie while this happens.

Ohhhh wait. I got it wrong. You mean you want the eu to take the App Store from apple and let someone else manage it, charge the fees and get the revenue. And they could do a better job than apple. I’ll grab my popcorn while this transaction takes place.

I've never fully understood this argument. It's absolutely not desirable for every service provider, not even every app store, to have their own hardware ecosystem. It would more or less take us back to the pre-smartphone days of separate devices for everything.

I fully understand why companies such as Apple and Google would want to funnel all activity through their store fronts on their hardware platforms, after all that's an additional revenue stream to selling you the hardware in the first place, but as everything becomes more digital I'm not convinced a position where a digital store has to run on the provider's own hardware is really desirable.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that the App Store would (and probably will) come out on top. Steam, for example, is incredibly dominant in selling games on PC by providing good service, but you are still free to buy your games from GOG, Epic or whoever else might want to run a store.

Other than the President… nice caveat. You mean the most powerful guy in the US executive branch, who tells all subordinates what policies to execute. That guy.

Sure, but contrary to popular belief the EU is not actually a state, and yet its institutions still have a certain degree of democratic legitimacy. That was the point. The people do not directly vote for the Commission President but the Parliament does, which is directly elected. Similar systems are used in various parliamentary systems (even though there admittedly the person to become the leader of the government will very often lead the campaign, so it's not entirely comparable).

Beyond that, not a single member of the US cabinet is directly elected. Not a single department head is directly elected. Not a single civil servant in those departments is directly elected. Etc etc etc

The person elected telling everyone which policies to enact is a very simplistic view on how governments and public policy making actually works and if you want to talk about democratic legitimacy you may find that the EU's approach lags behind in some, but is ahead in others. People electing the EC's President directly would be better, but does not make the whole system undemocratic by default. That's the point I'm trying to make.
 
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Seems someone who always opposes controls "likes" your post explaining the issues and risks.
For a few, there is no risk at all allowing non-signed, sideloaded apps. You've explained the risks which everyone now faces. All because the EU forced Apple to unwind some levels of protection...
For some technically minded people they will be capable to evaluate and then take on the risk. However, there's a reason Android has largely moved away from the "wall of permissions including root filesystem access, allow or don't run app" model. I agree with you that EU citizens face a lot of additional potential risk from these changes.

The ability to marry both technical and business restrictions allows for finer grained entitlements, for instance the new device registration framework to allow setup and communication with a specific device, rather than permanent open bluetooth/wifi connectivity/local network access.

Entitlements wind up encouraging 'super apps' that can ask for all sorts of entitlements which (because of their coarse-grained nature) are quite a bit more invasive in combination. Things like requesting bluetooth and wifi network availability access plus location plus internet access wind up taking additional scrutiny, while individually these are pretty benign.

I think one of Apple's goal is to leave strong chains of accountability for applications; if the EU wants to take responsibility for enforcing developers do not violate the security and privacy of citizens/residents, then there will be clear real-world identity of EU businesses available on all apps and app marketplaces. I also suspect they have little faith that the EU would be able to stop malicious behaviors in anything approaching a timely manner.
 
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Which is fair, I think we can all take different views on whether or not this is an area that should be regulated, but I doubt clarity (or in their view lack of) is really the driving force here. I'm sure there are technical points that will be hard to resolve, just as there are with the GDPR, but I think most businesses with the legal budget of Apple will find it easy enough to come up with a compliant solution, or alternatively with a risk-based solution that tests the limits of the DMA. There's always ambiguity in legislation, but let's not make it more than it is.
It would be easy for a company like Apple to "over-promise" and come up with a generous concession that more than meets the demands of the DMA. That was never in doubt.

What I find makes for a more interesting discussion is what Apple should do in order to both meet the requirements of the DMA, while giving up the absolute minimum on their end (be it control or profits or both). I am assuming that the EU members know in their minds what they want from Apple; they are just staying silent in the hopes that Apple might offer a better deal than they are willing to settle for (kinda like a tender system where you bid for a project but don't really know how much the competition is quoting).
I've never fully understood this argument. It's absolutely not desirable for every service provider, not even every app store, to have their own hardware ecosystem. It would more or less take us back to the pre-smartphone days of separate devices for everything.
Well, I don't think anyone here would find it reasonable if a judge ruled that Nintendo had to allow the epic game store on their switch platform (not least because they barely break even on hardware and the bulk of their profit stems from taxing games 30%), but somehow, this argument always gets tossed aside on the pretext that consoles are not smartphones and since they play a less vital role in our lives, companies like Sony and Nintendo are allowed to get away with their "monopolistic behaviour".

The thing is - Apple made the conscious decision to give up market share in exchange for profits when they decided on an integrated product approach (where they control the hardware, the OS and the services that run on the device). I have gone through well over a decade of naysayers criticising Apple's business model and claiming that it was flawed, that they needed to offer cheaper smartphones, that they needed to allow sideloading and be more open like Android. Apple instead went on to do the direct opposite of what the critics said, history has shown that they made the right call (having commanded the lion's share of the industry's profits despite having like 20% worldwide market share), and the Epic / Fortnite saga demonstrated that users don't really hate closed, sandboxed ecosystems.

Apple did everything right (I maintain that many users chose the iPhone in part because of its locked down nature, not in spite of it), and that is why I still cannot really accept how the narrative is shifting to one where users are trapped in a walled garden and only government intervention can save us from our own poor choices.

That's really my biggest bugbear here.
 
I've never fully understood this argument. It's absolutely not desirable for every service provider, not even every app store, to have their own hardware ecosystem. It would more or less take us back to the pre-smartphone days of separate devices for everything.

I fully understand why companies such as Apple and Google would want to funnel all activity through their store fronts on their hardware platforms, after all that's an additional revenue stream to selling you the hardware in the first place, but as everything becomes more digital I'm not convinced a position where a digital store has to run on the provider's own hardware is really desirable.

That doesn't preclude the possibility that the App Store would (and probably will) come out on top. Steam, for example, is incredibly dominant in selling games on PC by providing good service, but you are still free to buy your games from GOG, Epic or whoever else might want to run a store.



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I have a hard time understanding the entire dma. It seems to benefit only a few developers without benefitting consumers. It seems in fact to be worse than what currently exists. Of course people have their own hardline views in this and after several years and thousands of posts, nobody is changing anybody’s mind.
 
We've done this to death... MacOS and iOS were created differently. BY DESIGN.

Obviously. MacOS would be dreadful on a phone.

Desktop software has always been more open. Microsoft tried the locked Store and OS approach and it failed. People using desktops have become used to installing anything they like and wont change that habit.

This doesn't explain why smartphones should be any different. A computer is a computer, regardless of form factor.

iPhone users (mostly) liked the walled garden approach. Sure there were categories of apps Apple wouldnt allow. They knew that before purchase.

Wasn't the jailbreaking scene absolutely massive back then? I remember getting Cydia going on my 2G iPod Touch. Was fantastic back then, getting all the software Apple wouldn't allow on the store. Goes to show that demand for alternative storefronts has been there since the very beginning.

But the dev and sales data shows the trust was there and Apple users spend more on apps. and devs reap the benefits.

I find myself having to pay more for iOS software more often just due to the lack of open-source alternatives for stuff. Never had to pay for a reddit client for Android because Sync was open source and on F-Droid.

Not so much that the trust is there, just that there's no real alternative to spending. I need software; if it's paid, what choice do I have?
 
Every Apple engineer working on this crap isn’t working on new features, fixing bugs, or making existing features better. So yeah, it’s making my phone worse.

Different teams, my guy. Just like in my job I'm not the one actually manufacturing the product; the guy writing the API for external application installation isn't the same guy redesigning Siri for the ninth time.

Moreover, your phone is not worse because it didn't get new features. It stayed the same.
 
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I have a hard time understanding the entire dma. It seems to benefit only a few developers without benefitting consumers. It seems in fact to be worse than what currently exists. Of course people have their own hardline views in this and after several years and thousands of posts, nobody is changing anybody’s mind.

We've tried to explain it. Constantly. One has to be willing to understand before they can, you know, understand.
 
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The large number of groveling servile bootlickers here who worship overreaching governments is disappointing, to say the least. Europeans are incapable of innovating and producing their own competitive tech products largely because they are so absurdly over regulated and over taxed.

The EU has been a vampire on American tech companies for decades. They are no better than mafia crooks skimming as much as they can off of successful producers. They steal as much as they can from American tech companies under the guise of fake moral authority while refusing to address their own tyrannical greedy bungling and incompetence.
 
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