Evernote alternative

[sracer]

I am talking about any app if it has the capability to maintain the linked file/notes structure "as is" when exported to another app.

The answer to this one is... Obsidian, with a few caveats...

1. My PKMS is entirely markdown-based. (2300+ notes spanning 48 years)
2. I am using "vanilla" Obsidian. The only plug-in I use is the community Plug-in Remotely Save for syncing my vault to OneDrive (personal) so that it is accessible across my 6 devices.
3. I have changed the default setting for link formatting in Obsidian to use markdown style (instead of wiki).

To access my notes outside of Obsidian, I don't even have to export. All of the files are stored in their respective folders and subfolders in the operating system's filesystem.

I can use a markdown editor like, MacDown, to edit files and navigate links.

Where people put themselves in a trick bag is when they start using plug-ins that offer note format/functions that are unique to Obsidian. Leaving Obsidian means leaving those things behind. The #1 culprit is the Dataview plug-in. 97% of Obsidian users use Dataview and so they are locked into Obsidian or will have their options severely limited when moving beyond Obsidian.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

The answer to this one is... Obsidian, with a few caveats...

1. My PKMS is entirely markdown-based. (2300+ notes spanning 48 years)
2. I am using "vanilla" Obsidian. The only plug-in I use is the community Plug-in Remotely Save for syncing my vault to OneDrive (personal) so that it is accessible across my 6 devices.
3. I have changed the default setting for link formatting in Obsidian to use markdown style (instead of wiki).

To access my notes outside of Obsidian, I don't even have to export. All of the files are stored in their respective folders and subfolders in the operating system's filesystem.

I can use a markdown editor like, MacDown, to edit files and navigate links.

Where people put themselves in a trick bag is when they start using plug-ins that offer note format/functions that are unique to Obsidian. Leaving Obsidian means leaving those things behind. The #1 culprit is the Dataview plug-in. 97% of Obsidian users use Dataview and so they are locked into Obsidian or will have their options severely limited when moving beyond Obsidian.

Markdown can work for you, but it’s still not a universal option that could be used by most people.

Markdown is very limited, despite being an open format.

There’s no good systemwide, integrated markdown viewers for major OS’s that could be used to browse the notes from the file manager of file open / save dialog, the way pdf or Word notes can be browsed. Images don’t show, links may or may not show. All I see is plaintext with code.

The compatibility between markdown apps is poor. Even trying to open or import markdown files exported by one app into another often results in errors and broken links. Especially on iOS, but I also ran into many issues on desktop OS. For example, both Joplin and OneMore add-in for OneNote export and import notes in markdown, yet they can’t import each other’s notes. Typewriter on iOS and Mac can’t read links created in other apps. It’s a mess.

Most markdown editors are dual pane, which to many people is an unnecessary waste of screen real estate and just not an attractive setup. Joplin does have a WYSIWYG mode.

Most markdown apps that I tried either don’t support OCR, or have limitations on how it can be used. Many of the top recommended apps are paid, and there seems to be few cross platform apps that would provide a unified experience.

Compared with PDF or Word format, Markdown is just not mature, very fragmented and poorly supported. My Word or Excel file created 20 years ago can be opened today and will be opened 20 years from now without loss of embedded images or links or tables, on all platforms, utilizing a wide range of free or paid apps. Markdown… well I would know what the content of the note was, and I would be able to read the links to find and manually open the images, but it’s a far cry from just opening a complete document.

I am not criticizing your choice - I am sure that it works for you. But it’s still a niche format.

 

[MacBH928]

Markdown can work for you, but it’s still not a universal option that could be used by most people.

Markdown is very limited, despite being an open format.

There’s no good systemwide, integrated markdown viewers for major OS’s that could be used to browse the notes from the file manager of file open / save dialog, the way pdf or Word notes can be browsed. Images don’t show, links may or may not show. All I see is plaintext with code.

The compatibility between markdown apps is poor. Even trying to open or import markdown files exported by one app into another often results in errors and broken links. Especially on iOS, but I also ran into many issues on desktop OS. For example, both Joplin and OneMore add-in for OneNote export and import notes in markdown, yet they can’t import each other’s notes. Typewriter on iOS and Mac can’t read links created in other apps. It’s a mess.

Most markdown editors are dual pane, which to many people is an unnecessary waste of screen real estate and just not an attractive setup. Joplin does have a WYSIWYG mode.

Most markdown apps that I tried either don’t support OCR, or have limitations on how it can be used. Many of the top recommended apps are paid, and there seems to be few cross platform apps that would provide a unified experience.

Compared with PDF or Word format, Markdown is just not mature, very fragmented and poorly supported. My Word or Excel file created 20 years ago can be opened today and will be opened 20 years from now without loss of embedded images or links or tables, on all platforms, utilizing a wide range of free or paid apps. Markdown… well I would know what the content of the note was, and I would be able to read the links to find and manually open the images, but it’s a far cry from just opening a complete document.

I am not criticizing your choice - I am sure that it works for you. But it’s still a niche format.

I think markdown is not standard there are variations which causes this issue. None the less, Markdown will always be text so you can always read it or transfer it AFAIK. There is an app that is called Pandoc that can convert between different markdown formats, if that improves compatibility.

How does markdown stores images? create a separate folder? I heard there is a file format that bundles both text+image for file sharing but I can recall its name.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I think markdown is not standard there are variations which causes this issue. None the less, Markdown will always be text so you can always read it or transfer it AFAIK.

True. But so will Word. It’s a fairly open XML format now. Unlike Markdown, however, if I open a Word document I can see images without having to decipher the link, find the location, and open the image separately. The issue with using Word as my notetaker of choice is that while there’s a number of apps that work with Word on iOS, none of them is specifically geared towards quick on the fly note taking.

There is an app that is called Pandoc that can convert between different markdown formats, if that improves compatibility.

How does markdown stores images? create a separate folder? I heard there is a file format that bundles both text+image for file sharing but I can recall its name.

I think there’s no single standard on how Markdown stores attachments. There’s a standard on how the links should look but in my experience, links to images created in one app don’t always work in another app. It’s a mess.

 

[sracer]

Markdown can work for you, but it’s still not a universal option that could be used by most people.

Markdown is very limited, despite being an open format.

There’s no good systemwide, integrated markdown viewers for major OS’s that could be used to browse the notes from the file manager of file open / save dialog, the way pdf or Word notes can be browsed. Images don’t show, links may or may not show. All I see is plaintext with code.

The compatibility between markdown apps is poor. Even trying to open or import markdown files exported by one app into another often results in errors and broken links. Especially on iOS, but I also ran into many issues on desktop OS. For example, both Joplin and OneMore add-in for OneNote export and import notes in markdown, yet they can’t import each other’s notes. Typewriter on iOS and Mac can’t read links created in other apps. It’s a mess.

Most markdown editors are dual pane, which to many people is an unnecessary waste of screen real estate and just not an attractive setup. Joplin does have a WYSIWYG mode.

Most markdown apps that I tried either don’t support OCR, or have limitations on how it can be used. Many of the top recommended apps are paid, and there seems to be few cross platform apps that would provide a unified experience.

Compared with PDF or Word format, Markdown is just not mature, very fragmented and poorly supported. My Word or Excel file created 20 years ago can be opened today and will be opened 20 years from now without loss of embedded images or links or tables, on all platforms, utilizing a wide range of free or paid apps. Markdown… well I would know what the content of the note was, and I would be able to read the links to find and manually open the images, but it’s a far cry from just opening a complete document.

I am not criticizing your choice - I am sure that it works for you. But it’s still a niche format.

I don't mind if you ARE criticizing my choice. My personal knowledge management system is 48 years old so I know a thing or two about longevity which is a top priority for me. I've had to move my notes from one app to another about a dozen times over those years. I know what locks a person into an app, and what allows for minimal friction when moving on.

I don't want to convince anyone to do anything differently than they are currently doing, but if there is anyone who is interested in what it takes to maintain a system of notes for decades, then I can offer some assistance.

 

[MacBH928]

True. But so will Word. It’s a fairly open XML format now. Unlike Markdown, however, if I open a Word document I can see images without having to decipher the link, find the location, and open the image separately. The issue with using Word as my notetaker of choice is that while there’s a number of apps that work with Word on iOS, none of them is specifically geared towards quick on the fly note taking.

I think there’s no single standard on how Markdown stores attachments. There’s a standard on how the links should look but in my experience, links to images created in one app don’t always work in another app. It’s a mess.

If Word is just XML why does it still have compatibility problems with other apps? I doubt MS will let it be that easy for others to their their gold laying goose (MS Office)

I don't mind if you ARE criticizing my choice. My personal knowledge management system is 48 years old so I know a thing or two about longevity which is a top priority for me. I've had to move my notes from one app to another about a dozen times over those years. I know what locks a person into an app, and what allows for minimal friction when moving on.

I don't want to convince anyone to do anything differently than they are currently doing, but if there is anyone who is interested in what it takes to maintain a system of notes for decades, then I can offer some assistance.

48 years digital? I am seriously interested to know how you did it in say 1992? I am hoping you don't say HyperCard.
How were you able to sustain the links as you moved from one app to the other?

 

[DaveFromCampbelltown]

If Word is just XML why does it still have compatibility problems with other apps? I doubt MS will let it be that easy for others to their their gold laying goose (MS Office)



48 years digital? I am seriously interested to know how you did it in say 1992? I am hoping you don't say HyperCard.
How were you able to sustain the links as you moved from one app to the other?

My first digital notes were in DataStar and dBase II, in the very early 1980's. Somewhere along the line, I missed out on moving all of them onward (Osborne CP/M -> AmigaDOS -> MacPlus -> (various other Macs) -> current iMac (They are currently stuck in a SheepShaver virtual drive). I have, though, a printed copy of the missing ones.

 

[sgtaylor5]

There have been times recently, where moving from one note app to another I actually had to manually rebuild all of my links. It took a while, but I don’t have tons of them; there’s only one use case (client files backlinked to the date which I did the work) where I make backlinks.

I’ve stopped running. Obsidian’s import tool did a great job moving from Joplin to Bear 2.

 

[sracer]

If Word is just XML why does it still have compatibility problems with other apps? I doubt MS will let it be that easy for others to their their gold laying goose (MS Office)



48 years digital? I am seriously interested to know how you did it in say 1992? I am hoping you don't say HyperCard.
How were you able to sustain the links as you moved from one app to the other?

My PKMS started in a physical form. Index cards and marble composition notebooks.

In 1978, I started digitizing it on my Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I personal computer. As it migrated from that computer to MS-DOS computers, it remained in ASCII text format.

What I've discovered is that ASCII text is the best option for a PKMS' longevity. ASCII text was first created in 1961 and continues to this day as an international standard. (except for a time where IBM employed an alternative text standard for their mainframe computers called EBCDIC... yes, I used that. )
Unicode is the logical extension to ASCII, but it doesn't have the track record yet to rely on that.

I created my own standard for visually formatting text notes. This predated markdown by decades, but was surprisingly close to it that when it (markdown) became popular, it was easy to write some scripts to bulk convert my personal markings to markdown.

But when Windows became more common and stable, I dabbled with a few apps that offered rich text formatting of notes. The notes looked great... until the app stopped being supported and then started having hiccups with future versions of Windows.

That is when I went back to plain text notes with my personal formatting style.

When I bought my first Mac, I moved my notes to Notational Velocity... and then nvAlt after that.

Regarding note linking...
I had created my own zettelkasten-like system. I hadn't heard of that term or system when I first started numbering and cataloging notes (it seems like basic, solid ideas organically pop up in response to the problem at hand)

Of course this was downright prehistoric by today's standards, but it was far better than when my notes were in physical form. Leveraging the operating system's filesystem made it bearable and manageable.

When my notes were in plain text, it was easy to move from one app to the next. I could also change operating systems without a problem. It was only when my notes took advantage of the unique features and formatting of an app that cause me a lot of heartache, heartbreak, and heartburn in moving on to the next app.

So yeah, I'm not confused about what works for me. And what works for me certainly won't work for most. 😁

 

[SnowCrocodile]

If Word is just XML why does it still have compatibility problems with other apps? I doubt MS will let it be that easy for others to their their gold laying goose (MS Office)

Define "compatibility problems".

Fancy formatting not converting over ? I can live with that.

However, if I insert an image into a Word document, and add some description, I can see it in any of my other apps that can work with Word file, on all platforms.

Same with links. Although if using relative links, there's a high chance that they won't work well in another app or OS. This is not related to Word, there's simply no single common standard on how to define relative links. That's why I much prefer file attachments that become part of the note itself yet can still be exported as separate files.

Same with tables. The formatting may look different but the base table layout will be the same.

Also, I fully expect Microsoft and their Office to exist 20 years from now. Open Office will also most likely exist 20 years from now, and if anything will be more compatible with Microsoft formats. And, there's a huge business incentive for backward compatibility with Office formats. Companies aren't going to spend resources converting decades of past documents just to keep up with Office changes, so it's in MS' best interests to make such conversions as painless as possible going forward, now that the world is a lot more digitized than it was even 30 years ago.

OTOH, I don't know whether Obsidian or Joplin will be around in that timeframe, or what the Markdown field will look like. It's already hard enough to just open a .MD file created by Joplin in another markdown reader and have workable images and links without jumping through hoops.

There's just two things preventing me from simply putting all of my notes in Word. One is the lack of a quick Word-based notetaker on iOS, that is designed around speed of use - quick start in a note mode, auto file naming, autosave in a predefined folder. The other is file attachments.

48 years digital? I am seriously interested to know how you did it in say 1992? I am hoping you don't say HyperCard.
How were you able to sustain the links as you moved from one app to the other?

 

[SnowCrocodile]

My PKMS started in a physical form. Index cards and marble composition notebooks.

In 1978, I started digitizing it on my Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I personal computer. As it migrated from that computer to MS-DOS computers, it remained in ASCII text format.

What I've discovered is that ASCII text is the best option for a PKMS' longevity. ASCII text was first created in 1961 and continues to this day as an international standard. (except for a time where IBM employed an alternative text standard for their mainframe computers called EBCDIC... yes, I used that. )
Unicode is the logical extension to ASCII, but it doesn't have the track record yet to rely on that.

I created my own standard for visually formatting text notes. This predated markdown by decades, but was surprisingly close to it that when it (markdown) became popular, it was easy to write some scripts to bulk convert my personal markings to markdown.

But when Windows became more common and stable, I dabbled with a few apps that offered rich text formatting of notes. The notes looked great... until the app stopped being supported and then started having hiccups with future versions of Windows.

That is when I went back to plain text notes with my personal formatting style.

When I bought my first Mac, I moved my notes to Notational Velocity... and then nvAlt after that.

Regarding note linking...
I had created my own zettelkasten-like system. I hadn't heard of that term or system when I first started numbering and cataloging notes (it seems like basic, solid ideas organically pop up in response to the problem at hand)

Of course this was downright prehistoric by today's standards, but it was far better than when my notes were in physical form. Leveraging the operating system's filesystem made it bearable and manageable.

When my notes were in plain text, it was easy to move from one app to the next. I could also change operating systems without a problem. It was only when my notes took advantage of the unique features and formatting of an app that cause me a lot of heartache, heartbreak, and heartburn in moving on to the next app.

So yeah, I'm not confused about what works for me. And what works for me certainly won't work for most. 😁

You're of course correct. The simpler you keep your notetaking system, the easier it is to maintain.

I tried doing that way back when. For about five years, all of my notes were in plaintext format. Wonder if anyone here remembers Windows CE and a freeware called Tombo Notes... all notes were kept in encrypted plaintext format, and once you decrypted the database it was just text files. A very simple and elegant solution. Notes could be linked. Zero formatting.

Unfortunately, I just couldn't live with plaintext format. E.g. if I have a bill and need to dispute it with the business, I want to see that bill on my phone and mark it up while talking to them. Can't do that in a plain text notetaker. Can't store reference files. Can't add photos on the fly.

So, I switched to Evernote, very early on. That was fine for a while, but then I started using Onenote at work and it just made sense to utilize the same skillset at home. I stuck with Onenote for a long time, I still have many notes dating back to 2012 or so. It's a fine notetaker (not without its quirks), and it became a lot more responsive and reliable in the last several years. But, it's a proprietary format and it needs a MS Office subscription (in my case anyway, I have over 8 gb of notes). And, most importantly, I can't search it on my phone using Spotlight. So as far as portability and the speed of use on mobile, it's not the best (because it needs to be started for me to search it).

Apple Notes improves on speed of use (nothing is faster on the iPhone). But, its portability sucks.

Joplin, unfortunately, is not living up to its promise.

Evernote is circling the drain, far more interested in milking their existing deeply committed user base than anything else.

There's simply no one good solution for my needs (images, attachments, ease of use on the phone, portability).

 

[eltoslightfoot]

You're of course correct. The simpler you keep your notetaking system, the easier it is to maintain.

I tried doing that way back when. For about five years, all of my notes were in plaintext format. Wonder if anyone here remembers Windows CE and a freeware called Tombo Notes... all notes were kept in encrypted plaintext format, and once you decrypted the database it was just text files. A very simple and elegant solution. Notes could be linked. Zero formatting.

Unfortunately, I just couldn't live with plaintext format. E.g. if I have a bill and need to dispute it with the business, I want to see that bill on my phone and mark it up while talking to them. Can't do that in a plain text notetaker. Can't store reference files. Can't add photos on the fly.

So, I switched to Evernote, very early on. That was fine for a while, but then I started using Onenote at work and it just made sense to utilize the same skillset at home. I stuck with Onenote for a long time, I still have many notes dating back to 2012 or so. It's a fine notetaker (not without its quirks), and it became a lot more responsive and reliable in the last several years. But, it's a proprietary format and it needs a MS Office subscription (in my case anyway, I have over 8 gb of notes). And, most importantly, I can't search it on my phone using Spotlight. So as far as portability and the speed of use on mobile, it's not the best (because it needs to be started for me to search it).

Apple Notes improves on speed of use (nothing is faster on the iPhone). But, its portability sucks.

Joplin, unfortunately, is not living up to its promise.

Evernote is circling the drain, far more interested in milking their existing deeply committed user base than anything else.

There's simply no one good solution for my needs (images, attachments, ease of use on the phone, portability).

The best option I have found is Obsidian with the right plugins--with sync. But even that isn't as easy to use as Evernote back in the day (not Evernote now).

 

[throAU]

Apple Notes ***Improved but I do not trust Apple for privacy***

And you're using evernote?

 

[MacBH928]

Define "compatibility problems".

Fancy formatting not converting over ? I can live with that.

However, if I insert an image into a Word document, and add some description, I can see it in any of my other apps that can work with Word file, on all platforms.

Same with links. Although if using relative links, there's a high chance that they won't work well in another app or OS. This is not related to Word, there's simply no single common standard on how to define relative links. That's why I much prefer file attachments that become part of the note itself yet can still be exported as separate files.

Same with tables. The formatting may look different but the base table layout will be the same.

Also, I fully expect Microsoft and their Office to exist 20 years from now. Open Office will also most likely exist 20 years from now, and if anything will be more compatible with Microsoft formats. And, there's a huge business incentive for backward compatibility with Office formats. Companies aren't going to spend resources converting decades of past documents just to keep up with Office changes, so it's in MS' best interests to make such conversions as painless as possible going forward, now that the world is a lot more digitized than it was even 30 years ago.

OTOH, I don't know whether Obsidian or Joplin will be around in that timeframe, or what the Markdown field will look like. It's already hard enough to just open a .MD file created by Joplin in another markdown reader and have workable images and links without jumping through hoops.

There's just two things preventing me from simply putting all of my notes in Word. One is the lack of a quick Word-based notetaker on iOS, that is designed around speed of use - quick start in a note mode, auto file naming, autosave in a predefined folder. The other is file attachments.

You're of course correct. The simpler you keep your notetaking system, the easier it is to maintain.

I tried doing that way back when. For about five years, all of my notes were in plaintext format. Wonder if anyone here remembers Windows CE and a freeware called Tombo Notes... all notes were kept in encrypted plaintext format, and once you decrypted the database it was just text files. A very simple and elegant solution. Notes could be linked. Zero formatting.

Unfortunately, I just couldn't live with plaintext format. E.g. if I have a bill and need to dispute it with the business, I want to see that bill on my phone and mark it up while talking to them. Can't do that in a plain text notetaker. Can't store reference files. Can't add photos on the fly.

So, I switched to Evernote, very early on. That was fine for a while, but then I started using Onenote at work and it just made sense to utilize the same skillset at home. I stuck with Onenote for a long time, I still have many notes dating back to 2012 or so. It's a fine notetaker (not without its quirks), and it became a lot more responsive and reliable in the last several years. But, it's a proprietary format and it needs a MS Office subscription (in my case anyway, I have over 8 gb of notes). And, most importantly, I can't search it on my phone using Spotlight. So as far as portability and the speed of use on mobile, it's not the best (because it needs to be started for me to search it).

Apple Notes improves on speed of use (nothing is faster on the iPhone). But, its portability sucks.

Joplin, unfortunately, is not living up to its promise.

Evernote is circling the drain, far more interested in milking their existing deeply committed user base than anything else.

There's simply no one good solution for my needs (images, attachments, ease of use on the phone, portability).

I see your problem. If you want formatted text there is no solution really except the docx which you are hoping that MS will continue to make it available for import to other apps (I think they can withdraw that capability).

For formatted notes with attachments Evernote excels and for a heavy user the $10/month is worth it but you will be locked into their format. I am not sure how Obsidian fares in comparison. I would choose .odt since its open source so I am hoping there will always be someone who will pick it up in the future and build an app around it.

Have you tried DevonThink? one of their export options is MS Word.

 

[MacBH928]

And you're using evernote?

Actually I do not use Evernote for multiple reasons privacy being one. With Apple there is a lot more to trust like cloud storage not just text notes.

I use standard notes and Joplin now but Joplin is the main one, just in case one gets deprecated I have the other option.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

I see your problem. If you want formatted text

No, what I want is support for images, file attachments, speed of entry and search on mobile devices, crossplatform use - at the very least, iOS, MacOS and Windows, OCR (not a 100% requirement but very much wanted) and data portability.

If you read my post that you quoted, that's what I am talking about. Images and attachments and speed of use on mobile.

As far as formatting, I really care very little about it. If I could get a fast cross platform information manager that supported inserted images and file attachments and could export in some common format preserving file names and relationships, but had zero formatting options, I'd be perfectly fine with that. It's icing on the cake.

there is no solution really except the docx which you are hoping that MS will continue to make it available for import to other apps (I think they can withdraw that capability).

MS was forced into opening up their formats - the old .doc was a closed format, the current .docx is an open xml format and is basically a zip file with resources. The standard is open, so it's not up to MS to allow importers.

For formatted notes with attachments Evernote excels and for a heavy user the $10/month is worth it but you will be locked into their format.

And it doesn't support Spotlight. Unless tags are absolutely required, Onenote makes more sense - it's also great for formatted notes with attachments, and is a whole lot cheaper (or free if you can stay within 5 gb). Also a proprietary format.

I am not sure how Obsidian fares in comparison.

It's a closed source app using markdown. I already wrote pretty extensively just how broken the markdown format really is due to fragmentation and variable standards. It being open creates an illusion of portability, but because every other implementation does something different, the data is not really portable unless you're using very basic features, basically just a glorified text document. Once you introduce things like relative links and images and cross platform use, it breaks pretty spectacularly. I tried four different MD apps and all four had a different way of making links and images work. I couldn't read a link made in one app on another without editing it. I would not rely on being able to access all my data, with image and file links preserved, ten years from now without having to re-edit all files.

I would choose .odt since its open source so I am hoping there will always be someone who will pick it up in the future and build an app around it.

Except Docx is also an open format, and it's a whole lot more used. When I tried to find iOS apps that support ODT a few years back, there was just a few. Collabora Office was probably the best one, and it was still fairly clunky. OTOH, there's a ton of apps that support Word format. It's basic supply and demand. Just because something is FOSS, doesn't mean it's more future proof or more available - it's an illusion of freedom.

Regardless - there's two reasons I don't use Word (or Open Office) files. First, mobile. When I am taking a note on the phone, or am looking for info, I want it to be as fast as possible. On the desktop, it's much easier to do things fast even if the process itself is not optimized. On a phone, the app must be set up for quick on-the-fly data entry or retrieval. But because the developers think of Word / OO docs as "documents" and not "notes" nobody is trying to optimize their word processors for quick notetaking. Things like autoname, autosave, automatic zoom to maximize readability. It's doable, but nobody is doing this.

Second, file attachments. There's no such thing. You can only use links. And links are iffy, especially in a cross platform, mobile and desktop environment.

Have you tried DevonThink? one of their export options is MS Word.

Devonthink is expensive and does nothing for cross platform users.

Realistically, there's no truly portable, future proof setup if you need file attachments. FOSS doesn't ensure anything because you're still locked into the specific way the specific app does things, and just because "anyone" could restart development if the original team quits, doesn't mean that anyone would. Certainly not in any defined timeframe. At the end of the day, it's a collection of proprietary solutions, even if the code behind some of them is open.

 

[sgtaylor5]

deleted post

 

[eltoslightfoot]

No, what I want is support for images, file attachments, speed of entry and search on mobile devices, crossplatform use - at the very least, iOS, MacOS and Windows, OCR (not a 100% requirement but very much wanted) and data portability.

If you read my post that you quoted, that's what I am talking about. Images and attachments and speed of use on mobile.

As far as formatting, I really care very little about it. If I could get a fast cross platform information manager that supported inserted images and file attachments and could export in some common format preserving file names and relationships, but had zero formatting options, I'd be perfectly fine with that. It's icing on the cake.


MS was forced into opening up their formats - the old .doc was a closed format, the current .docx is an open xml format and is basically a zip file with resources. The standard is open, so it's not up to MS to allow importers.

And it doesn't support Spotlight. Unless tags are absolutely required, Onenote makes more sense - it's also great for formatted notes with attachments, and is a whole lot cheaper (or free if you can stay within 5 gb). Also a proprietary format.

It's a closed source app using markdown. I already wrote pretty extensively just how broken the markdown format really is due to fragmentation and variable standards. It being open creates an illusion of portability, but because every other implementation does something different, the data is not really portable unless you're using very basic features, basically just a glorified text document. Once you introduce things like relative links and images and cross platform use, it breaks pretty spectacularly. I tried four different MD apps and all four had a different way of making links and images work. I couldn't read a link made in one app on another without editing it. I would not rely on being able to access all my data, with image and file links preserved, ten years from now without having to re-edit all files.



Except Docx is also an open format, and it's a whole lot more used. When I tried to find iOS apps that support ODT a few years back, there was just a few. Collabora Office was probably the best one, and it was still fairly clunky. OTOH, there's a ton of apps that support Word format. It's basic supply and demand. Just because something is FOSS, doesn't mean it's more future proof or more available - it's an illusion of freedom.

Regardless - there's two reasons I don't use Word (or Open Office) files. First, mobile. When I am taking a note on the phone, or am looking for info, I want it to be as fast as possible. On the desktop, it's much easier to do things fast even if the process itself is not optimized. On a phone, the app must be set up for quick on-the-fly data entry or retrieval. But because the developers think of Word / OO docs as "documents" and not "notes" nobody is trying to optimize their word processors for quick notetaking. Things like autoname, autosave, automatic zoom to maximize readability. It's doable, but nobody is doing this.

Second, file attachments. There's no such thing. You can only use links. And links are iffy, especially in a cross platform, mobile and desktop environment.



Devonthink is expensive and does nothing for cross platform users.

Realistically, there's no truly portable, future proof setup if you need file attachments. FOSS doesn't ensure anything because you're still locked into the specific way the specific app does things, and just because "anyone" could restart development if the original team quits, doesn't mean that anyone would. Certainly not in any defined timeframe. At the end of the day, it's a collection of proprietary solutions, even if the code behind some of them is open.

You basically have to decide what you want to give up in this day and age.

I personally went DevonThink and really liked it for the most part--except when I went back to Windows.

Now I just go with Obsidian (using their sync) and several plugins. Not ideal, but it is encrypted and markdown, while having the drawbacks you describe, does at least have the basis of a standard. Most of the time, I clip PDFs.

Again, though, you are right that nothing meets all those needs.

 

[MacBH928]

MS was forced into opening up their formats - the old .doc was a closed format, the current .docx is an open xml format and is basically a zip file with resources. The standard is open, so it's not up to MS to allow importers.

Can they "withdraw" that open standard license?

And it doesn't support Spotlight. Unless tags are absolutely required, Onenote makes more sense - it's also great for formatted notes with attachments, and is a whole lot cheaper (or free if you can stay within 5 gb). Also a proprietary format.

I have no idea why some app allow in app search via spotlight and others don't.

It's a closed source app using markdown. I already wrote pretty extensively just how broken the markdown format really is due to fragmentation and variable standards. It being open creates an illusion of portability, but because every other implementation does something different, the data is not really portable unless you're using very basic features, basically just a glorified text document. Once you introduce things like relative links and images and cross platform use, it breaks pretty spectacularly. I tried four different MD apps and all four had a different way of making links and images work. I couldn't read a link made in one app on another without editing it. I would not rely on being able to access all my data, with image and file links preserved, ten years from now without having to re-edit all files.

I think MD was made to sustain formatted text , it was not supposed to maintain links and attachments. Every other app developer put in his extra effort to add additional features and hence the problem.

Realistically, there's no truly portable, future proof setup if you need file attachments. FOSS doesn't ensure anything because you're still locked into the specific way the specific app does things, and just because "anyone" could restart development if the original team quits, doesn't mean that anyone would. Certainly not in any defined timeframe. At the end of the day, it's a collection of proprietary solutions, even if the code behind some of them is open.

Maybe someone should do a FOSS version of RTFD since this is what you seem to aim for.

 

[MacBH928]

You basically have to decide what you want to give up in this day and age.

I personally went DevonThink and really liked it for the most part--except when I went back to Windows.

Now I just go with Obsidian (using their sync) and several plugins. Not ideal, but it is encrypted and markdown, while having the drawbacks you describe, does at least have the basis of a standard. Most of the time, I clip PDFs.

Again, though, you are right that nothing meets all those needs.

I gave a quick look into Obsidian and it seems to be a whole lot of mess of tangled things together. If you keep using those extra add-ons I imagine your exports will be a horror show.

 

[SnowCrocodile]

Can they "withdraw" that open standard license?

They made an "irrevocable promise" to not do that.

Ecma International - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[eltoslightfoot]

I gave a quick look into Obsidian and it seems to be a whole lot of mess of tangled things together. If you keep using those extra add-ons I imagine your exports will be a horror show.

Probably.