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Has Apple’s Innovative Magic Died?

  • Yes, years ago

    Votes: 69 25.7%
  • Maybe lately

    Votes: 31 11.5%
  • Unsure

    Votes: 27 10.0%
  • No. They’re just as innovative!

    Votes: 148 55.0%

  • Total voters
    269
  • Poll closed .

Andrea Filippini

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2020
394
339
Tuscany, Italy
And your evidence that SSDs in Macs die within 3-5 years is? None that I’m aware of. Plenty of Intel macs with SSD and 8GB of RAM or less sold in the past 10 years… many still going strong on the original SSD. This is FUD. At this point, if you don’t want storage soldered to the motherboard, Macs are not even a choice for you. Singling out this particular iMac doesn’t really make sense from that perspective.
The previous SSD storage on my Mac Mini was literally end of life with less read performance and terrible write performance (basically less than a 5200RPM HDD) (it was a Crucial MX200 500 GB and it's a very good storage).
And your evidence about the plenty of Intel macs with SSD and 8GB of RAM still going on the original SSD?
I'm highly doubtful but please @SuperMatt Lord of the Truth, make me know.
 

SuperMatt

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Mar 28, 2002
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The previous SSD storage on my Mac Mini was literally end of life with less read performance and terrible write performance (basically less than a 5200RPM HDD) (it was a Crucial MX200 500 GB and it's a very good storage).
And your evidence about the plenty of Intel macs with SSD and 8GB of RAM still going on the original SSD?
I'm highly doubtful but please @SuperMatt Lord of the Truth, make me know.
Sure, why don’t you read this detailed article that dispels the FUD about SSDs dying. Spinning HDs die 4x faster… Please, why spread FUD?


I’ve got a 2013 MBP at home with 8GB of RAM still running with no SSD problems, and we have a dozen of them from 2013-2016 with SSDs at work still going strong.
 

ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
1,886
5,182
Scotland
For sure. But in this configuration of apps 8 GB are not enough.

Yet people are happy using 4 and 8 GB RAM with 16 being rare and 32 and higher being exotic. My computer doesn’t stop working when I exceed my 16 GB or even exceeded my 128 GB RAM, the OS and apps handle it. I don’t notice any slowdown and there is no notable hit on SSD lifespan.
 
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SuperMatt

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For sure. But in this configuration of apps 8 GB are not enough.
Chrome actively grabs as much available RAM as it can to maximize its speed. Were you to run the exact same test on an 8GB machine, it wouldn’t grab all that RAM. And Chrome is notorious for this. There’s an extensive thread on MR forums about it…

More RAM is better IMHO when you buy the machine. However, the collection of apps you listed will not be a problem for an 8GB M1 iMac at all.
 

Sikh

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2011
548
320
I have never called the CPU weak.
I called the machine weak because isn't future-proof.
You need to go read my previously replies.


An estimated SSD with 150 TBW is poor even for general consumer.
This is my activity monitor on macOS Catalina after a 15-hour session using Chrome with multiple taps, Spotify, WhatsApp Desktop, Telegram, Mail, VLC and Office suite (Word, Excel, Outlook).
According to my apps I have basically a general consumer use.
With this rhythm your 150 TBW storage will be ****ed in a couple of years and maybe less due to high swap usage on M1 Mac with macOS Big Sur.
Even my suppliers sell renewed M1 Mac mini 8GB/256GB with 15-27% discount because they aren't long lasting and their previous owners want to get rid of them.

View attachment 1771938

You are ignoring the facts where apparently this is an issue but not a single NVMe since the 2012 rMBP and soldered on NVMe since the 2015(?) rMBP and on other machines yet its not a widely known issue. You would think if this 150 TBW is a problem "especially with the swap usage" that we would've heard about it, even if its 1% or less.

People blow up any and all apple issues so if this REALLY was a problem, we would've heard about it now. I've burned out SSD's, M2.SSD's and even 2 NVMe's and I can tell you its not a simple thing that "just happens with use of the computer".

I still think people are making this a bigger issue than it seems. I will believe this is an issue when there is ACTUAL data behind it. Gut feeling / napkin math is fine but for this specifically we need data
 
Last edited:

Andrea Filippini

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2020
394
339
Tuscany, Italy
Sure, why don’t you read this detailed article that dispels the FUD about SSDs dying. Spinning HDs die 4x faster… Please, why spread FUD?


I’ve got a 2013 MBP at home with 8GB of RAM still running with no SSD problems, and we have a dozen of them from 2013-2016 with SSDs at work still going strong.
Spinning HDD are very cheap nowadays but their use now is basically data backup.
I don't spread FUD. I have simply said that SSD, like my previous, can die or before dying lose performance dramatically. Personal experience. There were 160 TBW on DriveDx report and in fact 160 TBW are the estimated lifespan according Crucial datasheet for that model.
According to the papers quoted on your article especially Facebook study on their datacenter higher data write and read rates can significantly impact the lifespan of a drive and the most written storage in the study has less than 50 TBW so basically we are speaking about nothing new.
I don't know anything about your SSD size, your OS or your daily routine but my concern is only for M1 8GB/256GB because it's a machine already condemned and suppliers and previous owners know exactly the situation.
Suppliers try to resell them with over 25% discount (unbelievable for an Apple machine with less than 6 months from its first release), previous owners want to get rid of them asap to buy another Apple machine.
Yet people are happy using 4 and 8 GB RAM with 16 being rare and 32 and higher being exotic. My computer doesn’t stop working when I exceed my 16 GB or even exceeded my 128 GB RAM, the OS and apps handle it. I don’t notice any slowdown and there is no notable hit on SSD lifespan.
16 GB are enough to run basically everything (except video editing and other professional apps).
What's your computer HW?
 

Andrea Filippini

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2020
394
339
Tuscany, Italy
Chrome actively grabs as much available RAM as it can to maximize its speed. Were you to run the exact same test on an 8GB machine, it wouldn’t grab all that RAM. And Chrome is notorious for this. There’s an extensive thread on MR forums about it…

More RAM is better IMHO when you buy the machine. However, the collection of apps you listed will not be a problem for an 8GB M1 iMac at all.
Chrome maybe isn't a problem for 8GB M1 Mac due to high swap usage.
Several owners, however, have already returned the M1 8GB/256GB.
You are ignore the facts where apparently this is an issue but not a single NVMe since the 2012 rMBP and soldered on NVMe since the 2015(?) rMBP and on other machines yet its not a widely known issue. You would think if this 150 TBW is a problem "especially with the swap usage" that we would've heard about it, even if its 1% or less.

People blow up any and all apple issues so if this REALLY was a problem, we would've heard about it now. I've burned out SSD's, M2.SSD's and even 2 NVMe's and I can tell you its not a simple thing that "just happens with use of the computer".

I still think people are making this a bigger issue than it seems. I will believe this is an issue when there is ACTUAL data behind it. Gut feeling / napkin math is fine but for this specifically we need data
Have you burned out SSD's, M2.SSD's and even 2 NVMe's? Fortunately they weren't soldered. ??
Anyway, I don't know if there is an issue about data calculation on M1/Big Sur but high swap is real.
In a couple of years we will able to see the real situation but the actual sentiment isn't good.
 

SuperMatt

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Mar 28, 2002
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Spinning HDD are very cheap nowadays but their use now is basically data backup.
I don't spread FUD. I have simply said that SSD, like my previous, can die or before dying lose performance dramatically. Personal experience. There were 160 TBW on DriveDx report and in fact 160 TBW are the estimated lifespan according Crucial datasheet for that model.
According to the papers quoted on your article especially Facebook study on their datacenter higher data write and read rates can significantly impact the lifespan of a drive and the most written storage in the study has less than 50 TBW so basically we are speaking about nothing new.
I don't know anything about your SSD size, your OS or your daily routine but my concern is only for M1 8GB/256GB because it's a machine already condemned and suppliers and previous owners know exactly the situation.
Suppliers try to resell them with over 25% discount (unbelievable for an Apple machine with less than 6 months from its first release), previous owners want to get rid of them asap to buy another Apple machine.

16 GB are enough to run basically everything (except video editing and other professional apps).
What's your computer HW?
There is no evidence of widespread SSD failures, even on 2012 or 2013 Macs. It is the definition of FUD to claim that the 8GB iMacs won’t last when we have evidence of many, many Macs with 8GB of RAM and SSD still running today.

Interesting that your supposed takeaways from the article are contrary to their overall finding:

In order to reach a petabyte of total written data, the average consumer would have to use his or her computer more or less nonstop for a decade, maybe even multiple decades. Even gamers or “power users” will probably never reach the stated maximum amount of data written for a drive under its warranty.

In other words: You’ll probably upgrade your entire computer before your SSD fails.

I will go with what the data shows over your opinion and anecdotes and the labored comparisons you’re trying to draw concerning people reselling Macs. Do you realize the difference in usage between Facebook datacenter usage and a consumer Mac usage? The SSDs in the data center held up after being written to all day every day. This is way more than what an average user will do, even if the computer swaps RAM to the SSD.
 

Sikh

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2011
548
320
Chrome maybe isn't a problem for 8GB M1 Mac due to high swap usage.
Several owners, however, have already returned the M1 8GB/256GB.

Have you burned out SSD's, M2.SSD's and even 2 NVMe's? Fortunately they weren't soldered. ??
Anyway, I don't know if there is an issue about data calculation on M1/Big Sur but high swap is real.
In a couple of years we will able to see the real situation but the actual sentiment isn't good.

So you have no data, got it. My point was ITS NOT EASY TO BURN IT OUT. BEING SOLDERED ON OR NOT DOESNT NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR DURABILITY, the only DIFFERENCE is SERVICEABILITY.

I know its hard for you to keep up, but unless you have real facts on how "150 TBW" with "high swap usage in OS X" is REALLY BAD for the drive, your gut feeling / napkin math means absolutely nothing :).

Stop talking about "what if's". If OS X was REALLY that bad, again we would've had a reported issues of drives failing relating to this.
 
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ruka.snow

macrumors 68000
Jun 6, 2017
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16 GB are enough to run basically everything (except video editing and other professional apps).
What's your computer HW?

Mac mini M1 16GB RAM
MacBook Pro 2018 i7 16GB RAM
Mac Pro 2010 2x6 core 3.4 GHz with 128 GB RAM

My next machine will be something with over 256 GB RAM, most likely around 512 GB depending on if the M-series Mac Pro uses quad channel or something similar.

I need 'huge' amounts of RAM, most don't. My fiancé has 8 GB RAM and most computers in the family are 4, 6, or 8GB. Games are only just starting to need more RAM and most day to day computer users don't need more than 4GB. On all three of my computers I have swap usage from 1.58GB to 5GB right now. My partners machine has no swap usage with his meagre 8GB. If you 'need' 16GB just now, you most likely need way more than 16GB now too.
 

Andrea Filippini

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2020
394
339
Tuscany, Italy
There is no evidence of widespread SSD failures, even on 2012 or 2013 Macs. It is the definition of FUD to claim that the 8GB iMacs won’t last when we have evidence of many, many Macs with 8GB of RAM and SSD still running today.

Interesting that your supposed takeaways from the article are contrary to their overall finding:



I will go with what the data shows over your opinion and anecdotes and the labored comparisons you’re trying to draw concerning people reselling Macs. Do you realize the difference in usage between Facebook datacenter usage and a consumer Mac usage? The SSDs in the data center held up after being written to all day every day. This is way more than what an average user will do, even if the computer swaps RAM to the SSD.
So you have no data, got it. My point was ITS NOT EASY TO BURN IT OUT. BEING SOLDERED ON OR NOT DOESNT NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE FOR DURABILITY, the only DIFFERENCE is SERVICEABILITY.

I know its hard for you to keep up, but unless you have real facts on how "150 TBW" with "high swap usage in OS X" is REALLY BAD for the drive, your gut feeling / napkin math means absolutely nothing :).

Stop talking about "what if's". If OS X was REALLY that bad, again we would've had a reported issues of drives failing relating to this.
The evidence is my Mac Mini late 2012 with the previous Crucial MX200 500 GB that was burned with just 160 TBW. :)
 

SuperMatt

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Crucial is a very good brand but it's not a problem if you can replace it.
The problem is when you can't replace the storage and you have to throw away the entire machine.
This is a lemon.
As seen in the data I posted, most SSDs are good for about a petabyte of writes, and should last at least a decade for most users. Sorry you got a bad SSD, but if somebody gets a bad SSD in their iMac, Apple could replace/repair it. Again, the failure rate is very low. You can’t extrapolate one bad experience with an off-the-shelf SSD you presumably self-installed in an older Mac mini and assume that all these iMacs will have SSD failures within 3-5 years... ESPECIALLY when there is a large amount of data indicating otherwise.
 

gnasher729

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Nov 25, 2005
17,980
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But following your example, 'antennagate' was fixed ASAP. If Jobs realized he screwed up, he would play foolish and quietly fix stuff.
I had an old Nokia phone at that time. Guess what it said in the instruction manual: "You might not get a connection if you hold it wrong". Not in exactly those words, but that was the meaning.
 

gnasher729

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Nov 25, 2005
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I still think people are making this a bigger issue than it seems. I will believe this is an issue when there is ACTUAL data behind it. Gut feeling / napkin math is fine but for this specifically we need data
It's always the same: Something new from Apple, someone finds a horrendous flaw in it, the whole internet gets excited, and then - crickets. After the original reports, and a few people regurgitating those same reports, nothing. Just now a hacker hacked AirTags. You'll never ever hear of it again. Someone managed to unlock FaceID with a doll's head. Never heard of it ever again.
 

gnasher729

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Nov 25, 2005
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An estimated SSD with 150 TBW is poor even for general consumer.
This is my activity monitor on macOS Catalina after a 15-hour session using Chrome with multiple taps, Spotify, WhatsApp Desktop, Telegram, Mail, VLC and Office suite (Word, Excel, Outlook).
You wrote 35 GB since rebooting your Mac for the last time, so I don't know exactly how much you have been writing per day. If that 35 GB was per day, then 150 Terabyte will last for 4,285 days or 11.7 years. Assuming you write 35 GB every single day. I wouldn't complain about 11.7 years.
 
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Sikh

macrumors 6502a
Mar 8, 2011
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It's always the same: Something new from Apple, someone finds a horrendous flaw in it, the whole internet gets excited, and then - crickets. After the original reports, and a few people regurgitating those same reports, nothing. Just now a hacker hacked AirTags. You'll never ever hear of it again. Someone managed to unlock FaceID with a doll's head. Never heard of it ever again.

Wrong. The FaceID thing was talked about and went into detail on how it wasnt just "any doll" and it required changing the "facial features" before FaceID worked, same with the masks.

As for the hacking airtags, i saw that on my feed. Again i'm not your normal user and I usually see everything wrong with any tech especially apple stuff cause its always over blown and I still dont see soldered on NVMe drives dying in high volumes.

Please share something since its obvious a big issue and its being "burried" or as you said "crickets"
 
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Andrea Filippini

macrumors 6502
Jun 27, 2020
394
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As seen in the data I posted, most SSDs are good for about a petabyte of writes, and should last at least a decade for most users. Sorry you got a bad SSD, but if somebody gets a bad SSD in their iMac, Apple could replace/repair it. Again, the failure rate is very low. You can’t extrapolate one bad experience with an off-the-shelf SSD you presumably self-installed in an older Mac mini and assume that all these iMacs will have SSD failures within 3-5 years... ESPECIALLY when there is a large amount of data indicating otherwise.
Yeah you're right.
I can't extrapolate one bad experience but it can happen.
If you are able to replace it, well, in other case you have to throw away the machine.
Apple replaces directly the entire machine if the issue is under legal warranty but in any case you need to interact with Apple. You can't contact third party suppliers or resellers.
Basically over the legal warranty you're at risk and secondary market isn't a reliable option.
You wrote 35 GB since rebooting your Mac for the last time, so I don't know exactly how much you have been writing per day. If that 35 GB was per day, then 150 Terabyte will last for 4,285 days or 11.7 years. Assuming you write 35 GB every single day. I wouldn't complain about 11.7 years.
The amount of data written is unbelievable for a consumer usage.
Theoretically the lifespan is long-lasting but the direct experience with Crucial MX200 500 GB burned with 160 TBW (the same reported by Crucial) it's quite astonishing.
 

skaertus

macrumors 601
Feb 23, 2009
4,243
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Tim Cook is a great manager. He boosted efficiency. Apple is now worth over $2 trillion. When Steve Jobs died, Apple's market cap was $350 billion. Tim Cook could have done way worse than that.
 

kingtj1971

macrumors 6502a
Feb 11, 2021
517
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Alton, IL
I’m not so sure that Apple knows what the **** it’s doing.
:apple: My overall confidence in their pipeline and visionary mythology of introducing show-stopping products that are revolutionary and exciting may very well have died with Steve Jobbs.

Just here to add that I feel the same way.

To be fair, I'm not sure how much of this was about Jobs' showmanship and how much really is a lack of innovation on Apple's part? Apple is obviously coming out with new products regularly, and if we're being fair? Taking risks too ... like this latest attempt to move everything to the ARM processors.

But nothing really rings true for me when Tim Cook gets up on stage and gives speeches. It feels like he's just going through the motions, borrowing pages from Jobs' playbook about what to say and how to act "appropriately excited". (And then, he likes to do his virtue-signaling thing on top of it - which I guess he thinks endears him to his audience. But like *all* attempts to inject politics or social issues into business, it only decreases the total number of people happy with him.)

I'm not sure anyone else can really get the level of enthusiasm that Jobs had about the company, since Apple really was "his baby"? But at least, I would be much more pleased with the company if they retained a focus on the Mac being the product that everything else hinges on. They've really moved away from that, even running commercials on TV to convince people they don't even need a computer anymore if they've just got an iPad. And there's so much focus on the subscription services now, from "Apple news" to the gaming subscriptions to all the paid content streaming from Apple TV. I get that it's a huge profit maker.... but the "old Apple" was never afraid to tell people their products were only purchased by a small minority of discerning people, and the goal wasn't to be the biggest with the most sales.

I was fortunate to work at two companies in a row that were very "Mac friendly". (Employees could generally choose whether they preferred to be issued a Mac or a Windows laptop and the split was about 50/50 in both cases.) And I can also tell you that BOTH of the companies are now really struggling with defending that choice to allow and support the Mac. There's just so little upside anymore vs the high cost. (You've got to think -- these places were sold on products like the Macbook Air for most of their employees. Each time it was revised, you could still reuse the same gear with them. They fit in the same plastic snap-on case covers/protectors, used the same USB to Ethernet dongle and video cables, etc. They did change up the Mag-Safe AC adapter at one point, but they even provided a little adapter so the newer adapter could still attach to the older Macbook Airs!) More recently, companies were stuck buying a whole collection of expensive dongles for the machines, which employees were always losing or breaking, and you can't service anything on one yourself anymore. No option to swap out a bad memory DIMM or swap an SSD.
 
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skaertus

macrumors 601
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Just here to add that I feel the same way.

To be fair, I'm not sure how much of this was about Jobs' showmanship and how much really is a lack of innovation on Apple's part? Apple is obviously coming out with new products regularly, and if we're being fair? Taking risks too ... like this latest attempt to move everything to the ARM processors.

But nothing really rings true for me when Tim Cook gets up on stage and gives speeches. It feels like he's just going through the motions, borrowing pages from Jobs' playbook about what to say and how to act "appropriately excited". (And then, he likes to do his virtue-signaling thing on top of it - which I guess he thinks endears him to his audience. But like *all* attempts to inject politics or social issues into business, it only decreases the total number of people happy with him.)

I'm not sure anyone else can really get the level of enthusiasm that Jobs had about the company, since Apple really was "his baby"? But at least, I would be much more pleased with the company if they retained a focus on the Mac being the product that everything else hinges on. They've really moved away from that, even running commercials on TV to convince people they don't even need a computer anymore if they've just got an iPad. And there's so much focus on the subscription services now, from "Apple news" to the gaming subscriptions to all the paid content streaming from Apple TV. I get that it's a huge profit maker.... but the "old Apple" was never afraid to tell people their products were only purchased by a small minority of discerning people, and the goal wasn't to be the biggest with the most sales.

I was fortunate to work at two companies in a row that were very "Mac friendly". (Employees could generally choose whether they preferred to be issued a Mac or a Windows laptop and the split was about 50/50 in both cases.) And I can also tell you that BOTH of the companies are now really struggling with defending that choice to allow and support the Mac. There's just so little upside anymore vs the high cost. (You've got to think -- these places were sold on products like the Macbook Air for most of their employees. Each time it was revised, you could still reuse the same gear with them. They fit in the same plastic snap-on case covers/protectors, used the same USB to Ethernet dongle and video cables, etc. They did change up the Mag-Safe AC adapter at one point, but they even provided a little adapter so the newer adapter could still attach to the older Macbook Airs!) More recently, companies were stuck buying a whole collection of expensive dongles for the machines, which employees were always losing or breaking, and you can't service anything on one yourself anymore. No option to swap out a bad memory DIMM or swap an SSD.
I agree with you.

Tim Cook seems to be a great manager, as I mentioned in my post above. Apple is a $2 trillion company now, and that is certainly in part because of Tim Cook's leadership. If I were Apple's shareholder, I would be very, very pleased.

However, I am only a consumer of Apple's products, as I have bought some of them over the years. Tim Cook has a very different management style, and it shows.

Tim Cook is not a product person like Steve Jobs was. As you mention, Steve Jobs was excited about every product and everything revolved around it. Under Steve Jobs, and since his return to the company, Apple released the iMac, the iPod, the iPhone, the MacBook Air, and the iPad. Each of these five products created a disruption in the business and was truly revolutionary. One may argue that the iPod was not the first MP3 player, but it was certainly the first one that was done right in a mass-appealing way. The iPhone may not have been the first smartphone, but it was the first one that left everyone drooling over. The MacBook Air was not the first thin and light laptop, but it was because of it that Intel inaugurated the "ultrabook" concept.

Apple also released other products under Steve Jobs. There was the Mac Mini, Apple TV, and software such as OS X and iTunes. But the ones I mentioned earlier were game-changers.

Tim Cook is not that kind of guy. No revolutionary product. There are of course new products. AirPods. HomePod. Apple Watch. AirTags. Apple TV+. Apple Arcade. But they are not game-changers, with the possible exception of the AirPods. And still, the AirPods are nowhere near the iPhone or the iPad in terms of overall appeal.

But Apple Watch? It is a smartwatch that Apple released after so many other manufacturers. The HomePod is being discontinued as Apple's attempt to develop a smart speaker following other manufacturers. The AirTags look good, but there is already a category of products like these. Tim Cook launches products that fit in pre-existing categories. Steve Jobs defined new categories. That is the difference.

What to say about Apple TV+, the streaming service nobody asked for? Netflix already does a good job at streaming, and there are plenty of new competitors with great content, such as Disney and HBO. The job is already well done, and nobody needed Apple to step up. In fact, Apple is struggling with competition at something it does not necessarily do better than (or even equal to) any of its competitors. And Apple Music? Perhaps now the Lossless Audio will have appeal to some. I was a subscriber of Apple Music, and there was nothing special about it, nothing to really differentiate it from Spotify. I actually prefer YouTube Music, as it adds something new, the videos.

I have the impression that Steve Jobs was convinced that his products should do things the right way, something that was lacking in pre-existing products. Smartphones with large screens instead of keyboards. Multi-touch tablets instead of netbooks. Light laptops with no CD-ROM drives. All-in-one computers with no cables. Apple was the leader and others followed.

In Tim Cook's favor, I have to say that Apple's existing products seemed to have become better. There is M1 inside Apple's computers now, which is a huge step forward. This is because of Tim Cook's focus on efficiency. Tim Cook does not seem really interested in the final product delivered to the customer. He seems more interested in keeping the company running efficiently, which turns out to benefit the products.
 
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H. Flower

macrumors 6502a
Jul 23, 2008
754
848
The Good (or Great)
Apple Watch
AirPods
M1
iOS
macOS
Apple Music
-----------
Privacy


The Bad
Homekit
Homepod
AppleTV+
Apple News
------------
Moral aggrandizing, hypocrisy

The Ugly
Siri
Butterfly Keyboards
Trashcan Mac Pro
-----------
China Capitulation, tax shelters, Foxconn
 
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